Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Joost5000   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Mar 07 2019 3:43pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 04 2019 10:36am

Tom wrote:
Oct 03 2019 5:02pm
Luna is taking pre-orders again. Price is now $3700 for the standard config. Of note, the ludi controller includes throttle but it does NOT have a screwdriver setting to dial it back to street legal. Luna continues to misrepresent the bike as quiet and trail legal.
Weighing in at only 7 pounds, it still smashes other tiny drives on the market while retaining absolute stealth and quietness. While most other production bikes on the market are 250 watt Euro spec bikes with no throttle and no real power. With most limits in the USA set at 750 watts, this drive is perfectly suited for our market, allowing it to be used on most Class-1 trails legally with non-Ludicrous mode. Quiet power...
The bike is not class 1. It has a throttle and it can exceed 20 mph (the speed is limited to 28 mph and this setting can't be changed). The bike is class 3 and only street legal if you remove the throttle.
It would appear Luna got a little in over their head outsourcing the bikes. Though small, there seems to be quite a few quality control issues. Not to mention the features not matching the product description. The big kicker for me is the lack of programmability(unique to only this motor); that’s the sort of thing that would be nice to know before spending 4K. Not everyone is a forum geek, if Luna wants to get mainstream, they got some cleaning up to do.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X1 unboxing and sound comparison with an Ultra

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 11:58am

robocam wrote:
Oct 04 2019 7:35am
Just thought I'd share this unboxing of a Ludicrous X1 with a sound comparison with an Ultra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-VXKLkwZ0&lc
Thanks for the comparison. You don't seem to have the grinding noise that I do. I was going to say your noise level was similar to mine, but then when you said the video overstated the noise, I go back to thinking mine is abnormal, because if anything the videos of mine while riding understate the noise. Such bullshit that Luna won't entertain a replacement motor and my only option is to send the bike back. I really wanted to open up my motor as a last gasp effort before sending it back but Luna can't even tell me how to get the f-ing spyder off.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Luna Cycle X1 unboxing and sound comparison with an Ultra

Post by robocam » Oct 04 2019 12:05pm

You’re welcome. Sorry to hear about your frustrations. I hope everything works out. I wonder if something like this would remove the spider. Maybe if you count the teeth and measure the ring to see if it’s the same as the bottom bracket the tool’s designed for, it might work but then the spindle might stick out too far for the tool to fit. Try searching for Hollowtech or bottom bracket tools.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F1F6YT3/re ... LDbCJ1Z2AB

Or maybe this

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2313019920

Ok. I was told this one is the tool.

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-mid-drive- ... -tool-kit/

Tom wrote:
Oct 04 2019 11:58am
robocam wrote:
Oct 04 2019 7:35am
Just thought I'd share this unboxing of a Ludicrous X1 with a sound comparison with an Ultra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-VXKLkwZ0&lc
Thanks for the comparison. You don't seem to have the grinding noise that I do. I was going to say your noise level was similar to mine, but then when you said the video overstated the noise, I go back to thinking mine is abnormal, because if anything the videos of mine while riding understate the noise, and I go back to wondering if my motor is abnormal. Such bullshit that Luna won't entertain a replacement motor and my only option is to send the bike back. I really wanted to open up my motor as a last gasp effort before sending it back but Luna can't even tell me how to get the f-ing spyder off.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 1:11pm

Meh, will take too long to get here. I'm giving up and packing it up today but good luck with your X1, I'll pass the torch to you. Seems like you got a quiet enough motor. Didn't watch your entire unboxing video but great job from what I saw and hope you get the damaged parts replaced.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 04 2019 1:41pm

Thanks. Found another tool here. You only need to select the outer ring socket. It’s $35 plus shipping. How much is it going to cost you to ship it back?

https://www.empoweredcycles.com/product ... 1349374851
Tom wrote:
Oct 04 2019 1:11pm
Meh, will take too long to get here. I'm giving up and packing it up today but good luck with your X1, I'll pass the torch to you. Seems like you got a quiet enough motor. Didn't watch your entire unboxing video but great job from what I saw and hope you get the damaged parts replaced.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 2:38pm

FedEx said it would cost $145 if I use my own box insuring it for $3500 but it's only another $30 if I use their box and let them pack it. I don't necessarily trust them to pack it right but letting them do it covers all the bases in terms of insurance and shipping damage so roughly $175 to ship it back to Luna. I agreed with Luna that they will reimburse the original shipping due to their mistake in representing the bike as silent. Bittersweet but hoping it's really just me in terms of how loud the motor is as many of you seem happy with it and to be honest Kepler's first video before he even regreased it sounded way better than mine.

Zith18   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 04 2019 6:00pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Zith18 » Oct 04 2019 6:10pm

Tom wrote:
Oct 04 2019 2:38pm
FedEx said it would cost $145 if I use my own box insuring it for $3500 but it's only another $30 if I use their box and let them pack it. I don't necessarily trust them to pack it right but letting them do it covers all the bases in terms of insurance and shipping damage so roughly $175 to ship it back to Luna. I agreed with Luna that they will reimburse the original shipping due to their mistake in representing the bike as silent. Bittersweet but hoping it's really just me in terms of how loud the motor is as many of you seem happy with it and to be honest Kepler's first video before he even regreased it sounded way better than mine.
Who did you talk to as far as returns? I emailed luna support and they told me they weren’t sure if they would take the return. I tried calling and emailing a separate ticket and I got the same guy named tony p

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 6:41pm

I talked to Gary (paxtana) who is the customer service manager. Luna said on the pre-order page they would take returns if you were not happy within the first week. Beyond that they are exposed to credit card charge back. From a good faith perspective I don't know why they wouldn't take back the bike as they are raising the price anyway and told me they'll have no problem re-selling my bike after I return it.

By the way, it turned out costing quite a bit more to ship it back via FedEx. Their bike boxes are way too small for the bike so they had to split it into two boxes taking off both wheels which more than doubled the original quote. I probably could have saved quite a bit just using the original box and shopping around for the cheapest freight but already wasted too much time here at FedEx lol I'm just shipping it back.
Last edited by Tom on Oct 05 2019 7:33pm, edited 2 times in total.

jimmyN   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 46
Joined: Jan 30 2015 3:07pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 04 2019 7:24pm

I wonder how many people are sending their bikes back? and what will they do with these bikes? they can't sell them as new.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 7:39pm

I am guessing they would just sell them as used in their local store at a small discount. It's a great bike if you don't find the noise objectionable.

Edited to add I got a nice note from Eric at Luna who said they will evaluate my motor when they get it back. Their first priority was to make sure the M600 was reliable and feel confident the rest can be worked out.

Also, Karl Gesslein posted a review of his X1 here.

livelrge   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Jun 23 2019 1:42pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by livelrge » Oct 06 2019 5:24pm

Thank you Tom & everyone else for all the helpful information and videos on the X-1. I especially appreciated all the videos on the motor and noise issues, a loud motor is big drawback for me. By the way the Apollo also experienced the same nylon gear issues as the X-1, Luna eventually had to replace the nylon gears as well, thus creating similar noise issues. Possibly they're trying to pull too much power out of the bafang motors.

Regarding the top speed of the X-1 reaching only 25mph, I was quite surprised & disappointed considering the overall power. There Apollo has the same peak wattage as the X-1 (2000w) and the Apollo exceeds 35mph. I understand a different bafang motor but they both have the same peak wattage (2000w) and the X-1 is about 8 pounds lighter so you would think it would be somewhat close.

I did speak with Joel at Luna Cycles during the pre-order period about the speed range and he said that they anticipated the X-1 to hit 32-35 mph.

With regards to the M600 motor which is the same motor used by FLX ebikes, on there web site & some of the videos state that the motor is a 500w motor with a 850w peak. Luna Cycle states the same M600 motor as a 750w motor/nominal with a peak of 1000w / 2000w - ludicrous mode.

I did speak with a rep from bafang to clear up the confusion and he said the M600 is there 500w motor, and that their M620 is the 750w motor, not the M600. This could be the reason it's only going 25mph.

Don't forget, Luna did incorrectly state the weight of the bike, delivery date by 2 months and that it was going to be a "stealth quiet motor", maybe they also inadvertently got the wattage wrong also.

Some positive notes - The bike does have very good components, it's well built, has strong torque, and has an incredible price.

I do appreciate all the first hand information about the X-1. You have potentially saved me a lot of time, money and aggravation. I was definitely looking for a quiet fast bike . Thank you, Bob

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 06 2019 6:36pm

To clarify, the reason why it doesn't go faster than 25 mph is the gearing is optimized for trail riding. If you want to go faster just swap out the front chain ring and it is fully capable of going faster.

User avatar
waynebergman   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 967
Joined: May 07 2011 4:20pm
Location: Pender Harbour British Columbia Canada

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 06 2019 6:47pm

HI Livelrge, regarding the top speed of the X1. I can only guess what is going on here but to be sure I would need to know if one of the LUna bikes actually cuts out at a speed of lower than 45km or is it just reached its top speed based on gearing and the 48 volt system. I know on my bike it actually cuts out you can feel it on the flat ground when it hits 45km the motor stops giveing assist so its not at all like it just can not go any faster because of voltage or gearing. So this motor with stock 700 to 900 watts of power based on a 48 volt system with the right cassette and front sprocket will get you to 45k and then the controller stops giving power because of factory settings.
So if the top speed was too slow and it was not becuase of programing limits a 52 volt sytem would speed it up as would different gearing. Appollo has the top speed for one because of higher voltage so even if it had the same gearing the extra voltage is going to get you into the 30mph club but this bike at 48v is not. And this is fine with me but if people are wondering about there top speed they need to clairify if the controller is cutting out on them because of speed limit settings or are they just not getting the top speed they want because of voltage and gearing on the bike.

So my bike (based on the BAfang/Dengfu higher speed limit) with a good help of pedal assist, with the 48 volt system should be able to hit the 45 km speed if the controller is set to this speed limit. This is based on a health battery , a 40 tooth front chain ring and the normal cassette that LUna will suply on these bikes.
Last edited by waynebergman on Oct 06 2019 7:00pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kepler   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3244
Joined: Nov 08 2009 9:22pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 06 2019 6:53pm

I know my motor wasn't supplied by Luna bit i think there is a pretty good chance they are exactly the same. It is marked as 45kph motor (28mph) but it definitely cuts out at 25mph. Gearing is out of the equation with mine as I have a 38 tooth chain ring. cuts out at 25mph on the 13 tooth on the cassette and on the 11 tooth so I am not spinning out.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/

User avatar
waynebergman   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 967
Joined: May 07 2011 4:20pm
Location: Pender Harbour British Columbia Canada

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 06 2019 7:46pm

Kepler a quick question for you please.
When your bike tops out at 25mph can you feel it surging?.... meaing if you leave the throttle pinned and or pedaling as hard as you can does the bike shut off power right at the 25mph and then cuts back in at say just a little slower than this - giving the feeling of surging? If this is the case then its of course the controler that has been set to a speed limit of 25mph. If it does not surge like described above then it is an issue of gearing for your ride. Does this make sense?....wayne

User avatar
Kepler   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3244
Joined: Nov 08 2009 9:22pm
Location: Eastern suburbs Melbourne Australia

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 06 2019 7:49pm

Hi Wayne. It does exactly that. It hits 25mph, the assist stops. Just slightly below 25 mph the assist is back.
Current Rides

Lightest true ebike on the planet: ON ROAD viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74269
eBoost on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eboost/200306283342024/

User avatar
waynebergman   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 967
Joined: May 07 2011 4:20pm
Location: Pender Harbour British Columbia Canada

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 06 2019 7:57pm

OK interesting to know Kepler. My controller was set to a max of 45 km from either Bafang or Dengfu (it was hard with the poor comunication early in the purchase to know who was doing what) so that is a 5 km extra I have on tap. Its a shame the motor does not come with this as stock because it is for sure capable of this and is kind of handy at times. Regardless 40 km is plenty fast enough as well but atleast knowing how your drive behaves we know it is a controller speed limit regarless of gearing etc. Knowing this, even if you juiced the bike up with 52 volts it would not have any faster top speed because of speed limiting on contrtoller side of things but it would have less voltage sag on hill climbs etc. It will also be interesting as these drives get more main stream if people start to tinker with the 52 volt packs. We will get more hill climbing power with out controller mods but still our top speed will of course be the same with the controller speed limits. Not sure if the mosfats will take 52 volts or if the controller will handle it but I am sure some will try . In my mind the easiest way to pep these bikes up would have been to leave the controller at the stock amperage BUT run 52 volts through them instead if the controller would take it, then sort out the steel drive gear replacement to silence it and also set the max speed to say 50km and then we are ready to roll.Just my opinion however....wayne

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

The X-1 is not loud at all.

Post by robocam » Oct 07 2019 5:41am

The motor is not loud at all. I just came back from a ride with two friends, and one said he could not hear it at all, and he was within arms reach at times during the ride. When I rode behind my other friend, he said he could hear a low hum, but what I think he was hearing was tire noise. People on the trail are definitely not going to hear your motor after you're a few feet away from them.

More power does not automatically mean a higher top speed. The gearing has to allow it. You should compare it with their Ludicrous Ultra, which they have on their Apex. It is rated at 2500 watts in that configuration. But here's why the M600 doesn't achieve similar top speeds.

The M600 is geared so that the output better matches the cadence of a human. It won't spin the crankshaft or pedals so fast that you can't keep up. You won't be ghost/clown-pedaling. Think of it as a car with a different final drive ratio. Two cars can have engines that have similar outputs, but if one is geared lower, it may not have as high of a top speed.

And remember, all you have to do to go faster is change the front chainring from a 32 to a 40T. I ordered a 40T, so I will report the results, but someone has already swapped in a 38, and he reported 28mph top speeds. There probably won't be any downsides to this because during my ride today, I was pretty much in the highest gear most of the time. 1st gear tops out at around 6 mph. That's about how fast a Power Wheels goes. You could probably scale a vertical wall if you had the traction but unless you're pedaling without battery power, I don't see much use for the 1st few gears but of course this will depend on your terrain and riding style.

Also, I have an Ultra with a metal gear. It also is not loud at all. In fact, it is practically silent. It's barely louder than my nylon-geared BBSHD. The M600 on the X-1 makes a quiet whine that you can hear while riding, but other riders will not notice it especially since tire, wind and road/trail noise will be much louder. Hikers won't hear it after they're a few feet away.

The videos really make it sound so much louder than reality.
livelrge wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:24pm
...a loud motor is big drawback for me. By the way the Apollo also experienced the same nylon gear issues as the X-1, Luna eventually had to replace the nylon gears as well, thus creating similar noise issues...

...Regarding the top speed of the X-1 reaching only 25mph, I was quite surprised & disappointed considering the overall power. There Apollo has the same peak wattage as the X-1 (2000w) and the Apollo exceeds 35mph. I understand a different bafang motor but they both have the same peak wattage (2000w)...

...You have potentially saved me a lot of time, money and aggravation. I was definitely looking for a quiet fast bike ....
Last edited by robocam on Oct 07 2019 6:41am, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 07 2019 5:47am

My X-1 came programmed with a speed limit of 56 mph, effectively unlimited. The top speed is definitely gearing-limited. The power never cuts out. I know of someone that has changed his front chainring from a 32T to a 38T, and he reported reaching 28 mph. I am waiting for my 40T to arrive.
waynebergman wrote:
Oct 06 2019 6:47pm
...I can only guess what is going on here but to be sure I would need to know if one of the LUna bikes actually cuts out at a speed of lower than 45km or is it just reached its top speed based on gearing and the 48 volt system. I know on my bike it actually cuts out you can feel it on the flat ground when it hits 45km the motor stops giveing assist so its not at all like it just can not go any faster because of voltage or gearing. So this motor with stock 700 to 900 watts of power based on a 48 volt system with the right cassette and front sprocket will get you to 45k and then the controller stops giving power because of factory settings.
So if the top speed was too slow and it was not becuase of programing limits a 52 volt sytem would speed it up as would different gearing. Appollo has the top speed for one because of higher voltage so even if it had the same gearing the extra voltage is going to get you into the 30mph club but this bike at 48v is not. And this is fine with me but if people are wondering about there top speed they need to clairify if the controller is cutting out on them because of speed limit settings or are they just not getting the top speed they want because of voltage and gearing on the bike.

So my bike (based on the BAfang/Dengfu higher speed limit) with a good help of pedal assist, with the 48 volt system should be able to hit the 45 km speed if the controller is set to this speed limit. This is based on a health battery , a 40 tooth front chain ring and the normal cassette that LUna will suply on these bikes.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 07 2019 6:23am

Interesting how folks have different opinions on the noise. In Karl Gesslein's review he states "if you pass someone on the trail with the motor running, they would have to be deaf to not hear it".

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 07 2019 6:37am

My report comes from the perspectives of two other trail riders, and I'm willing to bet that anyone I encounter on the trails won't say it's noisy, if they can even hear it. :) Someone might notice it if you tell them to look out for the sound but any noise it makes quickly dissipates within a very short distance. And if it's true that the drive quiets down with more miles, it can only get better.
Tom wrote:
Oct 07 2019 6:23am
Interesting how folks have different opinions on the noise. In Karl Gesslein's review he states "if you pass someone on the trail with the motor running, they would have to be deaf to not hear it".

bradland   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Oct 07 2019 10:35am

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 07 2019 11:36am

I'm at 98 miles, and just around 6 hours on my bike after one week (literally took delivery last Monday). I have the Ludi X-1 and wanted to chime in on a couple of topics/issues that have been discussed.

Top speed. The bike is unquestionably gearing limited to 25MPH (on the 13T cog); the display shows the limiter set to 56 MPH. Working backward from some top speed runs with the stock 32T chainring and the 13T cog on the cassette, the M600 tops out at around 125 RPM on level ground. I built a chart (using bikecalc.com & PS) to compare 32T, 38T, and 40T chainring options. I have no doubt the G521 has the power to push well past 25 MPH. In fact, I adjusted my derailleur so that I can access the 11T cog and hit just over 30 MPH in a light headwind. I didn't want to push it too hard because it will skip, and I don't want to destroy the cog. Here's the chart in case anyone wants to use it to make a decision on chainring upgrades.

Image

Last comment on the top speed would be that if you bought this bike to ride on the road (or really even on "bike path" type trails), I'm not that surprised at your disappointment. There isn't room on the frame for a large chainring, and that makes perfect sense to me. The bike is clearly designed for off-road applications. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be disappointed; it just means you probably wanted another bike and maybe didn't realize it. Apollo anyone?

PAS. On-road (riding to/from trails), the PAS has been a little goofy for me. I think it's a combination of two factors: 1) the PAS seems tuned for off-road, and 2) the Ludicrous "hack". Luna shunted the controller to achieve the higher power levels. Word is they also got a custom firmware. I don't want to speak with authority here, because this is all just "what I've heard", but IMO, it explains some of the PAS's characteristics. On-road, using PAS 2/5, there's a "break-over" input torque level where the assistance jumps. It's right around 15 mph on the 13T cog. This goes away if you move up to PAS 3/5, or if you change gears. It's an idiosyncrasy I'm happy to live with because of what I'm about to cover next.

Off-road, the PAS is incredible. I'm in South Florida, so the trails I ride are pretty soft. There are a lot of sandy patches mixed with matts of pine needles or mangrove seeds. It's all either soggy, spongy, or sandy. With PAS 3/5, I can ride 12-18 MPH through trails with an avg heart rate of 130 bpm. That couldn't be better for my use case. I feel like I'm flying, and I have a throttle there to carry me through sandy berms, so I can hang a foot out motocross style to catch myself when the sand occasionally gives way out front.

As far as wattage, I probably don't need to explain to everyone here what a shit show wattage ratings are. Bafang calls it a 500W drive, but I've seen well past that on my display when pulling up a sandy climb. It's worth noting that the way Luna shunts the controller, the display shows the "normal" wattage value, but double the amperage provided to the motor. So if you see 250W on the display, 500W is being sent to the motor. I have a feeling this contributes to some of the PAS goofiness on-road. Off-road it gets soaked up by the terrain. I'd be curious to hear some PAS impressions from 750W riders. The base controller is 20A, so doubled is 40A. If you do the math, 48V * 40A is 1920W, which is where Luna comes up with the 2000W number. Is that a "real" number. No, of course it's not. The real number is what the motor draws on the trail, but if the controller is able to supply up to 40A, it's not unreasonable to "rate" the bike that way.

Noise. Yes, you can hear the motor when it's operating. How loud is it? Well, that depends. Under PAS, I don't find it loud at all. When operating RPM is at human cadence levels (≤85 RPM), the motor is barely noticeable. Lean on the throttle and push +1000W to the motor at ≥85 RPM, and it starts to whine. More power means more amplitude (sound waves). It seems inevitable that it will be louder. I'd imagine that the 750W version is a bit quieter, as it's not being hit with as many amps. If you want a really quiet bike, do a big wattage hub-motor build. The gear reduction in a mid-drive is going to make noise, and when you put in metal gears for durability, that makes matters worse (or better, depending upon your priorities).

Where the bike shines. Get this bike off-road and cover some ground and you'll discover exactly what this bike was built for. I came from a hardtail, so you can water down my enthusiasm if you wish, but this bike rides like a magic carpet. The suspension soaks up every single thing I've thrown at it. Seeing that I'm in Florida, I'm not doing any rocky downhill work, but my trails are 100% un-groomed. They're natural Florida scrub. I'm dealing with pine tree roots, random saw palmetto trunks, the occasional fallen tree, and a gator tail here and there :) Seriously, I have scared the hell out of a couple of baby gators coming up on them so quick. The X-1 has eaten everything I've thrown at it. The biggest 1st world problem I have is that the massive derailleur likes to wind up grass and weeds around the lower pulley. I didn't have this problem on my old Deore derailleur, but then again, that was an old 3-by-9 setup. I'll take the 1-by setup and avoid the super grassy stuff, thanks.

The X-1 is a very focused bike. It is un-compromised for off-road use, which makes it extremely compromised for on-road duty. Riding this bike on-road is like trying to run the Le Mans 24hrs in an Ultra 4 Trophy truck. Weird flex, but OK :lol:

I weighed mine at ~55 lbs (54.5 lbs to 54.8 lbs, but I won't split hairs). By comparison, a Biktrix Jugg FS is 72 lbs and costs more when you up spec the fork to a Rockshox product. A full carbon Specialized Turbo Levo is 48 lbs, but it has a 500Wh battery and no option to double your power output. Oh, and it's nearly $10k. It strikes me as a little bit on the insane side that there's even a discussion of whether the X-1 is a great bike. I get it that some people might not have understood the bike, but once the intent is clear, I think there's no debate. The X-1 is an incredible bike at an unbelievable price point.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 07 2019 3:02pm

Off road the noise could certainly be masked. My wife could hear the motor as I rode around our street, but that's on pavement. Luna is going to test my motor when they get it back just to confirm whether the noise was normal. I wonder how long it is until Karl's buddies tell him he doesn't have to cut the motor when passing, grin.

As far as speed limit, my X1 was set to 28 mph max on the display. I didn't have the ludi version though. I suspect the ludi version somehow is doubled to 56 mph. I can't recall the power dropping off at 25 mph. I did pedal very fast in highest gear a few times to test top speed. I can't say for sure that I was over 25 mph but I do recall seeing 25 and change on the display and think I would have noticed the motor cutting off.

As far as comparisons to other bikes, you can't really compare to a $10K spec full carbon Specialized Turbo Levo. A more reasonable comparison might be the $6K 2020 Turbo Levo Comp. It's lighter than the X1 despite being an aluminum comp frame, it has a 700 WH battery, and the components are more comparable. The motor isn't as powerful, of course.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 07 2019 3:33pm

What makes the $12k model better than the Comp? Is it just a little weight savings on the frame and some higher-end components? I just can't justify it. Maybe if I could afford a Lamborghini.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-wor ... 900-170511

To me, the big difference is the available throttle on the X-1. That's the only reason I chose the X-1 over the Levo. But now that I think about it, I barely even used the throttle on my last ride. The torque sensor on the X-1 just feels so good. Someday I might still end up with a Levo though :) I'll have to see how often I actually use the throttle in future rides.

Looks like the Comp has a 500Wh battery. 150mm travel vs 160mm front on the X-1.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/mens- ... p/p/154386
Tom wrote:
Oct 07 2019 3:02pm
...As far as comparisons to other bikes, you can't really compare to a $10K spec full carbon Specialized Turbo Levo. A more reasonable comparison might be the $6K 2020 Turbo Levo Comp. It's lighter than the X1 despite being an aluminum comp frame, it has a 700 WH battery, and the components are more comparable. The motor isn't as powerful, of course.

Tom   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 303
Joined: Aug 02 2007 5:31pm

Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 07 2019 4:10pm

That's an older model. Here is the 2020 Turbo Levo Comp which comes with larger battery. Edit: you're correct about travel. I thought the X1 was 150mm. The 2020 Turbo Kenevo Comp is $500 less with 180mm of travel, but doesn't have the larger battery.

Here is a review. The only consistent knock I've seen is the tires. He eventually figured out the problem with his shocks (hidden tokens) per his follow up . I've read you can derestrict the 20 mph max speed with this or a mechanical device. Specialized also has something called shuttle mode, which gives you peak power (560 watts and 90 Nm of torque on the Mag-S) for climbs without needing to pedal as hard (sounds like pseudo throttle for tired legs), but no idea how powerful it is relative to the standard X1. If you go by the manufacturer specs the M600 has 33% more torque and twice the power. I haven't seen lack of power as a common complaint though on the latest Brose motors and they are super smooth and quiet.

Post Reply