A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 05 2021 8:49am

The conversion from a Cyclone 6k motor to a QS 2000 motor is done. Was the change worth it edirtbike wise? YES -- more power and very smooth hillside starts with the Votol 100 amp sine wave controller.

The finished product:
IMG_0796.JPG
Bike complete to the polycarbonate chainguard
IMG_0796.JPG (954.42 KiB) Viewed 1301 times
QS 2000 build features:

Can employ copies of some parts of the Cyclone motor frame in the build.

The motor frame will hold the motor just out of the way of front wheel shock travel. This forward position will lessen wheelie initiations.

The motor frame hinges in the middle and allows for easy chain tightening.

And there is something in the design for those that hate the planetary Gearbox of the Cyclone motor. I hope I can enjoy the noise the secondary chain drive adds.

This motor plate fit/adaption (herein described is for 68mm BB shell) for QS 2000 & QS3000 (not the QS1000) works using the Cyclone frame plates because these motors Cy 3k ,Cy6k, QS 2000 & QS 3000 all have an outer mounting bolt pattern to the motors circular rim of 120 mm diameter.

The Cyclone motor frame does not have motor chain adjustment but uses a chain tensioner. The conversion from Cyclone motors to QS motors is a simple "extension" of what they have already done to go from the Cyclone 3k to the Cyclone 6k. The Cyclone 6k motor is 5" long and the QS 2000 motor is 6" long. You will need a 1.375 x 24, 68 mm BB shell(obtain from a frame builder), a threaded male 1.375 x 24 tpi coupler and lock nuts and/or threadlock. I have used 2 of the thicker (1/8") right side Cyclone motor plates as the offset left side would need some bending to possibly work. In the photo below imagine the lower BB shell as your bikes 68 mm BB shell.
IMG_1208.jpg
On the top is the BB shell extension to accommodate 6" of motor width
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IMG_1195.jpg
The Cyclone motor frame plate fits the QS2000 but not the plate to motor bolting holes
IMG_1195.jpg (3.07 MiB) Viewed 1301 times
Using the above BB shell extension hingeing on the bikes BB shell will force bigger diameter motors location down because of slant tube location. When using flat motor plates on both sides the left side will take up some crank arm space.
IMG_1223.jpg
A view of left side flat motor plate space intrusion.
IMG_1223.jpg (2.99 MiB) Viewed 1295 times
A "Z" shaped left motor plate like Cyclone employs would yield a little more space.

I did not continue with the above mentioned simple QS2000 adaption as I wanted built-in chain adjustment. My continuation of this post will be on such an adaption/modification to make such a motor frame.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Nov 07 2021 8:10am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 07 2021 7:07am

The hinged motor mount system "hinge-fastens" 2 flat Cyclone motor plates to a box beam that fits over the BB shell.
IMG_1191.jpg
The three bar motor mount using an alum Cyclone motor plate
IMG_1191.jpg (2.77 MiB) Viewed 1253 times
IMG_1194.jpg
A mock up view of the hinge setup from the bike bottom
IMG_1194.jpg (3.03 MiB) Viewed 1253 times


The hinged motor mount idea came about last winter to mount a Cyclone 3k motor with motor chain adjustment. The Cy3k motor mounts adjust to the 68mm BB easily using small spacers on the motor side to fit over the 3" alum box beam that fits over the BB shell. Follow the link below for details relevant to mounting the Cyclone 3k.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=3475#p1650104

The other 3 motors herein described are wider than the 3k motor and to fit the alum box beam will need an extended hinge pin or an "offset Z plate" either made by welding 3 flat pieces together or bending the left side plate big enough to fit. This motor mount described was conceived to use no special tools.

If your BB shell is wider than 68mm you could make a box beam its size by welding 4 offset leg angle iron sections together or make the beam by welding 4 plates together. A channel shaped section might work?

It was first thought the QS2000 motor frame would need plates heavier duty/stronger than the Cyclone thicker alum right side (0.2") motor plate. For a stronger motor plate I took a cy motor plate for copying and some chromoly 4130 steel 3/16" plate to the plasma cutter shop. He still has not cut them ($15/plate) as he is quite busy. Not being able to wait I used 2 of the thicker Cy alum plates in this QS2000 motor frame and they appear stiff enough for the motor torque/forces when also fastening the QS proprietary pintle hook mount to the slant tube.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by Skaiwerd » Nov 07 2021 8:13pm

Looking good. Is there a bike under there? Is the votol
controller no frills? 3 speed switch? Any regen
brake feature? What’s your reduction ratio 6-8:1 I’m guessing by the photo?

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 08 2021 7:13am

Skaiwerd,

The votol controller is not as readily programmable as the Cyclone emotor setup in that you need an RS232/ PC setup to communicate. Votol literature claims the the controller is already setup optimun for most uses. I have the 4 pin RS cable from the QS3000 build but never felt the need to change something by programming. I did change the motor spin direction by swapping the phase and hall wires not by programming.

For more on Votol controllers:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=95969&hilit=Votol+c ... r#p1405556
IMG_1229.jpg
The 4 pins plug into a cable on the Votol controller
IMG_1229.jpg (2.46 MiB) Viewed 1213 times
The motor-controller kit I bought came with a throttle but no 3 speed switch. The controller does have 3 speed input and mine is operating and so is the keyed Cyclone throttle. On the Votol 100 controller the high speed limiter is set as "on" in all 3 modes but you do go fastest in mode 3. The pos 3 max vel is plenty fast. My setup has no regen turned on. Active regen is an annoyance to fine precise braking needed on the sidehill trails I ride. Latency and magnitude of response with regen is just not precise enough.

The current reduction is 48/14. X 48/18 = 9.14. One of my criteria for reduction (for offtrail riding) is to have low enough gearing to do a standing-still burnout from merely a throttle twist and no body unweighting. Currently I employ a delrin chain guide because using the 18T sprocket does not provide enough span to avoid bottom stay rubbings from chain motion.

Power poles make for good front wheel blocking when testing burnout response.

I have a rear 60T sprocket coming soon. Then the test gear ratio will become 48/14 x 60/24 = 8.57.

Normally one could easily change gearing by changing the motor sprocket and adjust the chain tension with this adjustable chain length motor frame. The #410 chain motor sprockets used on the QS2000 are not on the market but are made by grinding the sides of a type #428 sprocket to fit #410 chain. A tasky job. So the 14T is the only one now for consideration when testing gearing.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Nov 08 2021 9:59am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 08 2021 8:04am

For an edirtbike build I wanted the motor about as far forward as possible. It should not rub the tire. I chose an "on the frame" graphical method to determine my maximun motor frame length allowable to not hit the tire during the sweep of the tire upward from front shock travel. The graphical template incorporates max shock travel, tire radius, and is set in place with a corner at the front axel and an edge parallel to shock telescoping direction.
IMG_1225.jpg
The graphical plywood piece represents the area sweep of the tire during front shock compression.
IMG_1225.jpg (3.37 MiB) Viewed 1217 times

After placement of the plywood guage next to the front fork determine where on the symbolic tire edge of the guage the distance from the BB axel to the virtual tire line is at the minimum by rotating a ruler. From the ruler's location (BB axel center)find & measure what is the minimum distance to the tire tread. This distance is the maximun length you can make your motor frame so as it will not touch the tire.
IMG_1226.jpg
A ruler is rotated about the BB shaft to determine the shortest distance to the tire.
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Here is a photo of the guage labeled for my bike/tire setup.
IMG_1228.jpg
Specific bike data written on plywood guage.
IMG_1228.jpg (3.44 MiB) Viewed 1217 times
When the tire during shock travel is closest to the BB axle is where the motor frame max span measurement is taken. The max distance on my setup is 14". The distance from the motor outer edge to the Cyclone frame BB hole center is 8.75". Subtracting 14 - 8.75 = 5.25" gives the distance between the 1.375" holes used on the alum box beam. If you want say 3/4" of frame beyound the hole edges you will need a box beam of length 5.25" + 1.375" + 2 x .75" = 8.125".

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 10 2021 8:27am

Chains and Gearing

The bike as pictured in the first post used #410H chain on the motor and #415H on the rear. The #410H chain holds up to the Cyclone 6k hill climbs. But the 410 half link will fail. I use no master links or half links (produce a noisy "click") in these chain runs. Bigger chains and sprockets are stronger and weigh more than a smaller size that might be adequate.

My initial consideration was try #219 chain on the motor side as this would mean smaller sprockets and less weight for the same gear reduction plus more clearance at the BB area. A #219 chain type 14T 20mm/17mm splined QS motor sprocket did not seem readily purchasable. Maybe #35 chain and sprockets?

QS 2000/3000 410 chain motor sprockets are not to be found but can be made from the #428 that is OEM to these QS motors. Rather than flat mill down the 428 hub to 410 chain size, I milled just the sprocket rim enough to fit 410 chain using a homemade devise. Milling the sprocket as such would keep the hub region the same size and keep sprocket lateral stability.
IMG_1190.jpg
Sprocket Milling devise and hand held grinder used to make the #410 QS moto sprocket
IMG_1190.jpg (2.63 MiB) Viewed 1167 times
A 5/8" arbor with a short piece of 1/2 EMT on it will center the sprocket on the arbor. Happy grinding."@

I have since switched from 415 chain on the rear to trying #410H chain on the QS2000 rear. #410 chain does work on the Cyclone 6K.

To eliminate the need for a delrin chain rub guide some big rear sprockets were néeded. The cogs now on the rear chain are 24T and 60T. So the gearing is

48/14. X. 60/24 = 8.57

and the setup is quieter than with the delrin guide.
IMG_0805.JPG
Delrin chain guide has been removed as no bottom stay rub with this larger sprocket
IMG_0805.JPG (896.8 KiB) Viewed 1167 times
With the gearing at 8.57 going slow is now a little faster but still enough torque for the steeep hills.

The 60T sprocket seen in the photo as mounted on an ACS freewheel with bolts had clearance problems when screwed onto the GruBee hub. It was a bolt head-spoke clash. Welding the sprocket to the freehub solved this clearance issue.


The plasma cutter has finished the Cyclone like plates which are made from chomoly 4130 plate.
IMG_0804.JPG
The upper right plate is A36 steel and black plate is Cyclone OEM.
IMG_0804.JPG (1.03 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 12 2021 8:04am

Motor Chain Adjustment is done by tightening/loosening the turnbuckle.
IMG_1233.jpg
The turnbuckle is anchored to the pintle hook bolt and clamped over a cable stop on the bottom side of the slant tube
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IMG_0799.JPG
The turnbuckle was fitted with a sleeve to reduce backlash
IMG_0799.JPG (704.06 KiB) Viewed 1132 times
The pintle hook was rotated for a much better fit & moved so as to center under the slant tube.
IMG_0808.JPG
New holes were tapped and the abandoned 2 holes filled with JB Weld.
IMG_0808.JPG (671.98 KiB) Viewed 1132 times
IMG_1198.jpg
The round head bolts were swapped out for flat head bolts so as to fit flush to the slant tube
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IMG_1238.jpg
The gear clamp left of the pintle bolts holds the motor to the slant tube
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Tightening the turnbuckle opens the fold on the motor frame. This change of angle lengthens the distance between the BB axle and the motor axle thus snugging the chain. The turnbuckle can push the motor downward along the slant tube when wrenched to lengthen the distance between the eyelets which makes for a slack chain.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Nov 19 2021 4:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 19 2021 3:55pm

Rear Chain Adjustment

White Industries makes a rear hub that has about +3/16" offset of the hub's frame tightening bolts from the hub's thru axel. The Tangs of the offsetting hardware are coupled and synchronized so any adjustment keeps the axle colinear to the BB axle. To adjust chain tension loosen both axle hex head bolts and with a 19mm thin wrench rotate one of the offsetting lugs as the other one will move accordingly. But before doing this operation loosen the disc brake caliper as it may need a different height stack depending on the amount of rotation.

The benefit of this axle chain adjustment can be less adding of chain links and with Horst type bike rear suspension, which does very little chain tighten during rear stay compression, you may get by without a chain tension roller-- for a gain of less chain running noise. The overall chain uptake possible is about 1" which is 2 links of #40 type chains. This sort of translates to maybe no half links necessary to avoid an either a too tight chain or one that gets too loose when adding two links.

This hub has the older 1.375" x 24 TPI RHT mount for a cluster or single speed using freewheel hub or a thread on cog.
IMG_0811.JPG
The White Industries Offset Axel showing the adjusting tang.
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If you are running a tire as big as your stays joining at the "U" can handle this hub may not slide into the frame's wheel mounting dropouts at all. The tradeoffs are simple for an edirtbike. If you are running a 26" wheel, mount the hub into a 24" rim and your 26" equivalent measured gearing will be x 26/24 -- lower gears. Your tire options are reduced going to 24" tires but Maxxis and Halo-Contra have "mid -- say 2.75" " dirt bike like tire lugs on some tread patterns.

If you ride sidehills you could use a longer leg for recovery when faltering to the downhill side. The 1" lower rear axle will lower the bike saddle making foot assists easier on the downhill side.

BTW. If you want more leg reach for sidhill riding recoveries, wear bigger (longer) shoes.

More on the motor mount next post.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Nov 25 2021 7:35am

Lateral Motor Position Adjustment

The location (left to right) of the motor (sprocket) depends on the thickness your Double Sprocket Bottum Bracket Hub (DSBBH). For the QS motors there is no significant lateral adjustment of the motor sprocket on the motor shaft, so the Cyclone part of the motor frame is adjusted left to right to get straight chain sprocket alignment. The 2 motor plates are fitted with a section of 1 3/8" 4130 chomoly tubing that can slide left to right thru the alum box beam.
IMG_1192.jpg
The Cyclone Motor Plate can slide left or right thru the alum box beam on the tubing
IMG_1192.jpg (2.3 MiB) Viewed 1027 times
Once the DSBBH is chosen and in place on the BB axle the lateral position of the motor with respect to the alum box can be fixed.
IMG_1195.jpg
Once the BB hub is in place (blue White Ind Freewheel visible) the lateral position of the motor can be found.
IMG_1195.jpg (3.07 MiB) Viewed 1027 times
With the motor sprocket in alignment with the corresponding BB Hub chainring 2 standoffs are made. The standoffs are tubing sections large enough to fit over the motor frame 1 3/8" tubing shaft.
IMG_1203.jpg
Standoffs have been fitted to the left and right side of the alum box beam. Note another standoff is placed inside the box beam to act as an anti-crushing member for the box beam.
IMG_1203.jpg (2.93 MiB) Viewed 1027 times
A thru bolt with washers runs thru the tubing to tighten the Cyclone Motor Plates to the alum box beam. The only welding done on this build was to weld a cap washer to the right side end of the 1 3/8" tubing to make for an effective pinch of the motor plates to the standoffs when the thru bolt is tightened.

The 3" box beam's fitting on the BB shell permits almost no lateral adjustment left or right. The inside width of the box is 2 3/4" = 69.85 mm. The BB shell width stated is nominal as this bike's 68 mm shell was too wide to fit inside the box beam by a couple millimeters. I ground some alum off both sides of the BB shell to get the box beam to slip over the shell.

Likely the 173mm BB axle will be a little short for this QS 2000 motor mount width. The 208 mm BB axle gives ample width for crank clearance and DSBBH width that a few thrust washer are needed to take up some free space on the BB axle as the DSBBH floats on the axel. When using the Cyclone version of a DSBBH employing a single freewheel you will have more unused axle space than the two freewheel version of the DSBBH used in this setup.

The two sprocket version of a DSBBH used here is not attached to the pedal cranks. With 8000 watts for motor does one need the 300 watts of human assist on hill climbs? I will report on new version of a DSBBH made from ISIS bearings than is used on this build -- Quiet.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 01 2021 9:51am

Dual Sprocket Hubs

The Quest for Quietness begins
IMG_1258.jpg
A decibel sound meter will help locate the souce of which noise producer is the loudest.
IMG_1258.jpg (2.87 MiB) Viewed 956 times
by getting the central noise generator, the hub, aligned with the parallel chain flow -- all the time. But the root of this quest lies in the BB axle. Is the BB axle bent? If a bent axle is suspected, a straight-edge alignment test may acertain a non-straight axle. A dial guage measuring at the axle tip will also detect out of round rotation.
IMG_1259.jpg
Straight-edge test for a bent axle
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If you find you have a mildly bent axle or an out-of-alignment hub, you may be able to reduce hub noise considerably by first turning the the motor chain hub to where the motor chain is the tightest (the least slack), then reset the motor chain tension using the motor chain tensioner so the tension there is barely snug. Then throughout the rest of the chain revolution there will be more slack in the chain than at the readjustment place. An overly tight chain makes and transmits more noise when poor alignment exists.


Single Flange Hub

The way Cyclone 3k does the 2 stage reduction is by employing a single flange hub (flange freewheel) on the BB axle.
IMG_1256.jpg
A single flange hub mounted on the right side crank arm
IMG_1256.jpg (2.53 MiB) Viewed 957 times
These single flange freewheel hubs have 2 rows of loose ball bearings and can take some offset(eccentric) loading and they permit pedal assist. When chain rings for other than very narrow chains (10 speed and higher) are mounted on the single flange spacers are needed to keep the chains from touching. Bigger motors torture these skinny bolts holding the 2 chain ring assembly together. Likely the best single flange setup would use the SickBikeParts Ultra freeewheel hub made by White Industries -- perhaps drilled to have 5 holes 1/4" rather than some 3/16". I have had the 5mm class 10.9 pan heads shear off. The class 12.8 5mm metric bolts have heads so big as to sometimes clash with the spokes or other needed bolts.

Drilling these hubs cannot be done with cobalt bits as the hubs are made of some strong alloy steels or high carbon steel(Dicta?). However it can be done slowly by employing a 1/4" cylindrical tungsten carbide deburring tool in a drill press. Technically this is milling not drilling.
IMG_1253.jpg
Enlarging a hole on the hard freewheel steel using an oiled carbide deburring "bit"
IMG_1253.jpg (2.26 MiB) Viewed 957 times
The Cyclone 6k and the QS2000 motors are about the same length 7 7/8" overall but the motors chain hub location on the Cyclone 6k has some lateral freedom of adjustment and the QS 2000 is virtually fixed. If you employ a single flange hub the QS motor needs positioned off center to the left to get both good motor chain alignment and good rear wheel chain alignment.

Next topic is double flange hubs.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 07 2021 8:31am

Dual Flange Hub / Dual Sprocket Hub

The dual flange hub spins on the BB axel and need not be connected to the crank arm. A two stage reduction made with 2 separated flanges in contrast to one flange loads the BB axle not the crank arm and the separation permits additional bearings and permits easier chain separtion and sprocket mounting. There seems to be no 2 flange hub for sale searching the internet that mount on a 5/8" shaft, is less than 2" in length and is threaded 1-3/8" x 24TPI RHT.

There are several low tech ways to make such a 2 flange hub or 2 sprocket hub by employing vintage bike parts, current bike parts, items from the Hillman fastener selection of hardware stores and parts from companies that sell parts for motorized bikes. The threaded flanges need a connector and a way to add standard bearrings. There are 4 connectors that meet these constraints
IMG_1274.jpg
Flange Connectors
IMG_1274.jpg (2.66 MiB) Viewed 902 times
Left to right:

1. The BB RHT threaded extension shell comes as part of the Cyclone kit for longer BB shells

2. The RHT black oxide steel radial bearing cup that is on the standard square taper axel left side.

3. The RHT loose ball bearing cup that is on vintage English 3 speed bikes and has 1-3/8" x 24 TPI.

4. A 1-3/8" x 24 RHT threaded round bar with a 3/4" ID shaft hole sold as an adapter from Staton Inc.

These coupler possibilities are shown with a stronger coupler to the right. I did not used the Cyclone coupler (1) on the QS3000 as I did some torque calculations concerning the quite thin tubing wall and it seemed marginal for that motors output. For the QS2000 couplers 2, 3 and 4 and on my QS3000 I have used couplers 3 and 4 with out shearing them off.

The threaded adapter from Staton is the strongest but the 3/4" ID does not permit any radial bearing cartridge fit to a 5/8" axle but it's ID size does allow standard bushings insertion to fit a 5/8" shaft. These bushings are often in the Hillman fastener section of a hardware store. The bushings with a flange on one side will contain grease better than a simple sleeve bushing. Small holes are drilled through the bushing for grease flow. The keyway channel is used for grease delivery and it's Allen screw hole is fitted with a grease zerk. To keep the bushings from turning in the adapter the bushings were pressed together covered with Red Loctite or Loctite shaft lock. Do not tighten the other Allen bolt on the bushing as the bolt will easily bubble inward a section of the bushing making it locally to small to slide over the axel. But alas these soft bushings can reamed to fit again or replaced with new ones.
IMG_0826.JPG
The holes drilled in the bushing are aligned with the keyway groove.
IMG_0826.JPG (704.87 KiB) Viewed 902 times
A vise can be used to easily push each bushing into the adapter
IMG_1261.jpg
The bushings are quite soft and for starting must be well aligned with the insertion hole. Loctite curing time is 24hrs. Loctite the grease zerk and it will not leak grease when pumping it into the adapter.
IMG_1261.jpg (2.27 MiB) Viewed 902 times
Either thread-on sprockets or freewheel flanges can be mounted on the adapter.
IMG_1263.jpg
These home made welded thread-on sprockets make for a quite reliable hub
IMG_1263.jpg (2.64 MiB) Viewed 902 times
If you are mounting freewheel cogs on the adapter you will need to taper grind the end of the adapter to get a flush fit of the end of the freewheel cog to the adapter as the end the FW cog is necked down from 1-3/8"
IMG_1267.jpg
A Staton adapter ground to have a tapered end
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Sometimes the inner cog freewheel "take-apart-plate" will unthread when used fitted to a left side as needed here. Some red loctite and thrust washers may aid in keeping the assembly together. The threaded ring is too small too arc weld.
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Loctite is used to keep the fastening ring from backing off.
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A spacer makes for enough separation of the zerk from the sprocket to fit the grease gun coupler. Or grind down a side of the grease gun connector.
IMG_1278.jpg (2.13 MiB) Viewed 902 times
The Staton adapter can simply house 2 freewheel flanges permitting sprockets as small as 24T to be bolted onto a flange. The number of teeth choice for teeth count on cog freewheel is from 16T to 22T
IMG_1280.jpg
A 2 flange hub using a Staton adapter to connect FW flanges
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Sometimes these soft bushing get slight deformation when inserting or drop the hub and the adapter will not slide on the BB axel. The tight spots get shinny with a little turning. If you can find the out-of-round spot you can remove it with a round file or better yet use a Critchley Type reamer set to nominal 5/8" to get a fit and more precise roundness.
IMG_0829.JPG
A 5/8" Critchley Type Reamer inserted into the bushing.
IMG_0829.JPG (765.8 KiB) Viewed 902 times
A 5/8" Critchley Reamer is adjustable from 19/32" to 21/32". Using it is a fitting process as you may need to adjust it for more cutting. The centering hub of this type reamer will help produce a rounder hole. When the reamer is about through the hole the center hub is moved to the other side of the cutting bars.

These bushinged hub are suitable for edirtbikes on hill climbs and trail riding but for long high speed trips may wear out too soon? See an earlier post of this bushinged hub:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=110930&p=1615994&h ... 0#p1616623

Next a dual flange hub made with several radial cartridge bearings -- they can take high speeds and large torques.

A prototype of the radial Isis bearinged hub:
IMG_1281.jpg
This hub uses Isis bearings on a 5/8" axel.
IMG_1281.jpg (2.15 MiB) Viewed 891 times
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Dec 08 2021 6:15am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by Deafcat » Dec 07 2021 8:07pm

Great build, lots of fine work in there! Bike looks fantastic too.

You mentioned the cyclone planetary reduction, some of those are actually good! They really need the proper grease to work the way they should. Mobilith SHC 100 is perfect choice, about 1/3 of a whole tube. Assuming the gears fit well of course. Cyclones tolerances are sloppy.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 26 2022 8:33am

An Easy to Make Bearinged Hub (DFBBH)

The DFBBH consists of 5 parts which are 2 front freewheel flanges, 2 jack shaft bearings(5/8" ID &1.375" OD) and a round bar threaded coupler. For the flanges use either ASC or generic Cyclone hubs. The White Industries Frontwheel get a little thin when bored to fit a standard jackshaft bearing and the Dicta hubs are machined to less tolerance and sometimes come apart full of dirt. For the coupler you'll need 1.375 x 24tpi threaded rod with a hole of +5/8" diameter through it.


The round threaded bar connector was made from a Staton Inc adapter. When cut in parts this adapter can provide 2 sections of 3/4" bar threaded to both ends.
IMG_1326.jpg
A coupler rod has been cut from a Staton Inc adapter. The brass bushing seen in the lower right section is not needed but the one shown here is 5/8" ID.
IMG_1326.jpg (2.47 MiB) Viewed 701 times
The ACS hubs need a slight bit of boring to get the jack shaft bearing to fit snug (snap ring resting on the hub). The small amount of removal of the very hard steel used in the ACS hub will take a carbide deburring bit or a dremel green wheel to bore it while spinning the hub on a drill. You will need some lathe like accuracy but for this minor amount of removal I have done it accurately enough with a simpler set up than a lathe.
IMG_1366.JPG
The ACS hub will need enough boring for the gap between the snap ring and the hub visible here to disappear.
IMG_1366.JPG (2.81 MiB) Viewed 701 times
The two right hand drive hubs are put on the 3/4" section of coupler bar with the slots for the removal tool placement facing outward.

IMG_1328.jpg
Cyclone generic hubs to be threaded onto the coupler bar.
IMG_1328.jpg (2.47 MiB) Viewed 701 times

The jack shaft bearings are seated into the coupled hubs using JB Kwik Weld (7 min) both at the same time and placed on a vertical held square drive BB shaft. This two bearings at once operation will make for a form of parallel projection alignment.
IMG_1335.jpg
The bearings seated with JB KWIK weld are drying under parallel projection alignment. 24 hrs later the hub is ready to go.
IMG_1335.jpg (2.4 MiB) Viewed 701 times
The threaded adapter $20.00 is from Staton Inc and the Jack shaft bearings $3.00/each are from SickBikeParts.com.
IMG_1159.JPG
The snap ring on these bearings could be removed and the bearing embedded deeper but the setup works fine with the rings resting on the bubs.
IMG_1159.JPG (1.09 MiB) Viewed 701 times
These bearings will fit snug to tight on the 0.625" black portion of a square drive BB shaft. They will not move onto the case hardened portions of the square drive BB shaft as it's diameter is bigger and for the special OEM Square Drive BB bearings. If this setup fits seems a little loose you can secure the bearing placement location with Loctite Shaft Lock.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by NickSaggy » Jan 27 2022 6:41am

This is so descriptive.
I was not a fan of mechanics in my engineering class. Now I do this kind of posts make me this kind of person.

brazilianboy   100 mW

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by brazilianboy » Jan 27 2022 8:12pm

DingusMcGee wrote:Chains and Gearing

The bike as pictured in the first post used #410H chain on the motor and #415H on the rear. The #410H chain holds up to the Cyclone 6k hill climbs. But the 410 half link will fail. I use no master links or half links (produce a noisy "click") in these chain runs. Bigger chains and sprockets are stronger and weigh more than a smaller size that might be adequate.

My initial consideration was try #219 chain on the motor side as this would mean smaller sprockets and less weight for the same gear reduction plus more clearance at the BB area. A #219 chain type 14T 20mm/17mm splined QS motor sprocket did not seem readily purchasable. Maybe #35 chain and sprockets?

QS 2000/3000 410 chain motor sprockets are not to be found but can be made from the #428 that is OEM to these QS motors. Rather than flat mill down the 428 hub to 410 chain size, I milled just the sprocket rim enough to fit 410 chain using a homemade devise. Milling the sprocket as such would keep the hub region the same size and keep sprocket lateral stability.
IMG_1190.jpg
A 5/8" arbor with a short piece of 1/2 EMT on it will center the sprocket on the arbor. Happy grinding."@

I have since switched from 415 chain on the rear to trying #410H chain on the QS2000 rear. #410 chain does work on the Cyclone 6K.

To eliminate the need for a delrin chain rub guide some big rear sprockets were néeded. The cogs now on the rear chain are 24T and 60T. So the gearing is

48/14. X. 60/24 = 8.57

and the setup is quieter than with the delrin guide.
IMG_0805.JPG
With the gearing at 8.57 going slow is now a little faster but still enough torque for the steeep hills.

The 60T sprocket seen in the photo as mounted on an ACS freewheel with bolts had clearance problems when screwed onto the GruBee hub. It was a bolt head-spoke clash. Welding the sprocket to the freehub solved this clearance issue.


The plasma cutter has finished the Cyclone like plates which are made from chomoly 4130 plate.
IMG_0804.JPG
Hey Big fan your project. I'm starting a fat bike full suspension with QS motor 1kw mid drive. Motor ordered, batteries ready, just the controller is the phaserunner which o think is underpowered for the motor but will do for the beginning.

Can you please share the cad for the cyclone motor mounts?

Also, is there a simplified way to build freewheel crank just like the cyclone? Or is there any kit ready out there to install pretty much ready to go? I'm doing mid-drive because I want to use the gears of the bike, I live in Poland countryside.

Would be great perfect for me have the whole cyclone kit but the qs motor 1kW instead of the cyclone.



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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 28 2022 7:19am

Brazilian boy,

No CAD used here as the side plates were a one-off copy/use job of Cyclone parts because the QS2000, QS3000, Cy 3k and Cy 6k motors all have a 120 mm diameter rim caps on the motor ends which makes for motor mount stability. I have not got a look at the QS 1000 so I cannot say whether it has motor caps with 120mm d rims. The unused side plates I show, made of 4130 cromoly steel were cut by a plasma cutting co., who likely generated a CAD file, but I do not have it. The plasma cutting company was terribly slow in the plate cutting for my pace. I still have the Cyclone alum plates on the mount (the thick ones on both sides).

Side Plate Dimensions: BB hole is 1.375", the big 90 degree arc has diameter 120mm, center separation is 150mm. Add some arc lentgth if you want bolt holes on the two sides. You may need some threaded 1.375" tubing coupler parts (male & female) to accommodate motor plate separation distance to the BB width differences.

A fat tire bike has 120mm BB shell width. My bike has a 68mm shell so a 3" box beam just fits over the BB shell. You would need to find or make a rectangular box section to fit over the 120mm width shell if you are making a motor mount like I present here.

Freewheel Crank -- The Cyclone primary to secondary chain system transfer happens on the right crank arm. An ACS front freewheel is threaded onto the right crank arm. The sprockets are bolted with spacers on each side of the ACS hub to provide adequate chain separation. MAYBE a 207mm long BB axle will house this assembly?

If you have not done a Cyclone motor kit I suppose there is some "insider information" you may not be privy to.

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by brazilianboy » Jan 28 2022 8:40am

Thank you for your answer. I will figure out as I go.

I'm waiting for parts to arrive, for now my brand new frame is sitting on my workshop.
Image

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by brazilianboy » Jan 28 2022 11:12am

I will start a new thread once the building process begins

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 04 2022 7:14am

If I were to state my goals when bike building by priority I would say performance, reliability and then quietness. I have 3 of these converted Specialized Big Hit edirtbikes with 3 different sizes of motors. Each motor size has a zone of territory-type where it's size works best so no more motor changes to a bigger motors. The big gas powered dirt bikes have 14" of shock travel -- and weigh 230lbs -- and are not exactly nimble, especially on downhill tight switchbacks. Fox 40 bike forks have a mere 8" of travel.

The last improvement posted was about making a DFBBH using 2 ACS front freewheel hubs (FFWH). FFWH do fail in the field. Chains fail but are in-field reparable. Belts?? I once had a LR Sm Blk bike and the Gates belt tore on the first hill climb I tried riding the bike on. One adequate size of chain on both the primary and secondary is easier to care for.

To eliminate the possibility of these FFWH employed at the BB axle from failing they could be welded so they no longer freewheeled. Instead of welding the ACS hubs, I chose to make a 2 bearinged double flange hub of 3 pieces of 4130 cromoly steel and 2 USA made bearings. The flanges were welded to the seamless cro moly tubing using 3/32" Eutectic 4026 rod at YS of 120,000 psi. The flanges were turned on a lathe.
IMG_1343.jpg
The setup before welding. The side to be welded has the thick sprocket bolted to the flange. The sprocket keeps the flange from warping during welding The long spacers and other flange provide a form of parallel projection alignment to the tube shaft.
IMG_1343.jpg (2.04 MiB) Viewed 566 times
IMG_1344.jpg
The first flange had been welded and the spacers have been changed to the width needed for the chain separation on the QS 2000 bike.
IMG_1344.jpg (2.4 MiB) Viewed 566 times
IMG_1339.jpg
The DFBBH after welding. The tube has been cut to length.
IMG_1339.jpg (2.81 MiB) Viewed 566 times
The nice thing about using 4130 steel is that it suffers less warping than most other steels when welding. I put this DFBBH on a lathe and measured it by several ways of rotation with a dial guage. It's out-of-roundness was at 0.001" making it my best ever one-off production -- at a lot of time.



Here is the label of the 4026 welding rod:
IMG_1338.jpg
Label from Castolin Eutectic 4026 3/32" electrode
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IMG_1337.jpg
The right portion of the label
IMG_1337.jpg (3.15 MiB) Viewed 566 times
NICE (a manufacturer) bearings USA made (about $25 each) fit snugly into the tube ends and the assembly when on an axel turned effortlessly. This production installed has quieted the bike noise to a level where the tires make more noise than the chain system. Where from here? I need these tires.

The last part of the quieting procedure was to fill the void space in the DFBBH with Loctite Black Polyurethane sealant.
IMG_1368.jpg
The DFBBH was filled with the Sealant and sprockets were coated with the sealant.
IMG_1368.jpg (2.58 MiB) Viewed 566 times
Now, when riding the bike with power-on, the bike noise/motor running is like the purring of a sleeping kitten -- no desire for a Gates belt -- breaking.

The sealant? Harmonic balancers use various rubbers between 2 steel rings to dampen noise and off-center rotation effects in car motors. They now are on bikes -- ha ha --------

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 13 2022 7:43am

Testing the Recovery Tool for Broken ACS Front Freewheel Pawls

The field ready recovery tool bolts into the 5 threaded (M5 x0.8)holes of a 10 hole ACS freewheel. The tool connects/locks sprocket rotation to the threaded part of the hub via the freewheel removal slots.
IMG_1390.jpg
The Recovery Tool is carried with the 5 needed bolts in place. The nylock nuts keep the bolts on the tool preventing a loss of them.
IMG_1390.jpg (2.04 MiB) Viewed 474 times
The Recovery Tool has some thickness beyound the teeth (0.2") and may not fit on just any bike's space between the rear hub and the dropouts with bolts heads projecting when installed. It does fit on a White Industries Enos rear hub and the BicyclesEngines.com Steel rear hub. Either the 5 mounting holes are further predrilled into the sprocket or the bolts are cut to a precise length to stop just touching the sprocket.
IMG_1386.jpg
The recovery tool installed on White Industries Enos rear hub with some space to go.
IMG_1386.jpg (2.47 MiB) Viewed 474 times

The test was done on a snowy day so the tires made little noise but I could hear usual chain noise when coasting with a moving chain. I did go through some 15" crusty drifts of snow. The recovery Tool worked flawlessly -- it got me home without walking.

The question was, "...where to carry this tool so it will be available 100% of the time?" Along with a 4mm Allen wrench.
IMG_1391.jpg
The Recovery Tool was fastened with its 5 bolts screwed into 5 threaded holes in the motor frame.
IMG_1391.jpg (2.6 MiB) Viewed 474 times
I also have a yet untested version of a Recovery Tool for the White Industries freewheel flanges and the SickBikeParts.com ultimate hub. But words from the street are, "They [WI Hubs] never Fail", so there may not be a first use of the tool.

brazilianboy   100 mW

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by brazilianboy » Feb 16 2022 9:09pm

Do you know any sprocket for bicycle chain which fit in the qs motor 17mm shaft? It can between 12t and 18t.

BTW My qs 1kw arrived. It is very small and fit between a fat bike pedals perfectly.

Based on my research, it should peak about 7kw

Thank you

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 17 2022 7:36am

brazilianboy,

I could not find such an already made sprocket searching the web....


This ebay link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164903078524?h ... Swl89fzuDW

Is a source for 17mm motor sprockets that are used with #420 chain. #420 is wider than bike chain and these motor sprockets are too wide for bike chain to fit but they are the same pitch -- 0.5".


You will have to grind the sides of these cogs down until your bike chain lays down enough on the cog so the chain's rollers sit touching the slots bottoms between the cogs' teeth. I show near the begining of this thread a combination of a drill and grinder I used to slim this cog to fit #410 chain.

Or have a machinist do it. He will likely want a piece of the chain you will be running.

Welcome to ebikebuilding sourcing.......

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 17 2022 8:27am

Another version of the DFBBH. (Exhaust pipe version)

But first the Delrin plastic hub was tested
IMG_1392.jpg
The acetate plastic hub is quiet and lightweight.
IMG_1392.jpg (1.92 MiB) Viewed 405 times
The white hubs show dirt more readily than the steel varieties.

The low tech Exhaust Pipe Version of the DFBBH employs a short piece of 2.125" ID steel exhaust pipe to connect 2 DICTA flange freewheel hubs. These hubs have a 2.125" rim and whether the pawls seize or fail is of no concern as the 2 hubs are externally connected and use external bearings. No lathe need to make this version. Square up the exhaust tubing using a stationary belt sander and combination square measurements to get the ends square.
IMG_1393.jpg
A section of exhaust pipe is used to connect the rims of the Dicta Hubs. The spacers help lock mutual rotation.
IMG_1393.jpg (2.21 MiB) Viewed 405 times
With 5 equal length spacers the hub build has a form of parallel projection alignment built into the structure. The spaces were purchased from a hardware store in the Hilman fastenor section.

The Isis BB bearings have an ID greater than 5/8" so a reducer insert was made by drilling a 1/2" SAE nut (fine thread Grade 5 or Grade 8 ) to 5/8" and shaft locking the nut to the bearing with JB Kwick.
IMG_1310.jpg
ISIS bearings with ID reduced to fit 5/8"
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The ISIS bearing found in BB axle assemblies can be of the 7mm thick variety or the thicker 8mm+ version. Either will work.
IMG_1394.jpg
The bearing cup is from the BB kit and threads into the Dicta hub.
IMG_1394.jpg (2.41 MiB) Viewed 405 times
A BB lockring keeps the bearing cup from backing out.

Standard square drive bearings could have been used with shimstock to get a sung fit on the BB shaft.

Do not use reclaimed exhaust pipe as it is quite annealed from heating and cooling and has little stiffness.
IMG_1395.jpg
The exhaust pipe version has been mounted and currently being tested.
IMG_1395.jpg (2.31 MiB) Viewed 403 times

brazilianboy   100 mW

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by brazilianboy » Feb 17 2022 9:39am

Wow thank you so much. Very well explained.

I appreciate the link


So I'll get some of those sprockets in my local shop and grind them down until fit on my bike chain, try and error. I will try not to use 428 or or 420 chains because they are very heavy and I want to keep using bicycle components as much as possible.

This would work for me?

https://a.aliexpress.com/_vphdvM

Minus the BB. I will use mine if the motor fit between pedals or some larger from sick bike parts. Needs to be for a fat bike though.

I'm a big fan of your contribution. Nobody did what you did. Keep going!

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Re: A QS 2000 motor mount from Cyclone 3k plates etc

Post by DingusMcGee » Feb 17 2022 10:10am

brazilianboy,

Sounds like you are on a working track... Keep me informed.


The QS1000 is a tentative replacement for my Cyclone 6k but it keeps going. Are those Cyclone bashing posts in other threads complaints from people that cannot construct-fix anything? Kits fail and even with their over machine designed nature often are sold without field testing and fail miserably when a buyer puts them to their kit maker's declared use.

The 100 amp Votol sine controller is what I plan for driving the QS1000.

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