Rental mid-drive bikes?

Hello folks!

I live in the countryside and alongside mountains (lots of MTB trails) and I've decided to build some bikes to rent as a side/weekend business.

Got a BBSHD myself and love it, but too expensive to build a fleet.

As this is going to be just for dirty/gravel roads, not actually trails, there is a wider range of possible bikes to use as a platform (most likely HT MTBs with a decent drivetrain/brakes/tires).

Regarding the motor/kit: BUILD THEM ALL with 750w BBS02. But why?

1. Minimum price difference from 500w or 250w
2. Plenty of power for lazy tourists and larger riders
3. Possibility of limiting motor to 18a to give it a security margin for longevity and still have decent power
4. Not so big batteries (maybe 13s3p with 3500mah cells would suffice), easy to charge and have spares
5. Can mount with/without throttle.

First, I've considered Tsdz2 for being cheap and more docile, even to kids. But have no experience with them and decided to stick with well programmed Bafangs for now. Maybe build one or two Tsdz2 or BBS01 for fun using a full suspension bike or teenager 24" rims.

Any thoughts?

Tsdz2 = NO!

As for the bbs02 vs bbshd, or the bbs01 just get whatever is cheapest. Hopefully your fully insured.

You want to rent mid drives? Better love to spend all your time fixing them. Plan on your customers running them in top gear every inch of the way.

I would not do that. I'd do 2WD hub motor bikes before I would rent mid drives to yahoos.

//quote=calab
/ quote=Chalo ]

Love the Honest inputs!

With my short and humble exp, the BBSHD has been rock solid. Just an expensive option to me if building a fleet.

I noticed that even on the hardest hills, using the right gear will gently climb you up using no more than 250-300W.

But let me clarify something: this is not a rent and leave. The tours are guided (4 to 5 people). Just gravel roads, but sloped.

On top of that, will be limiting amps/power. Shouldn't these be enough to protect motor/controller?

About the Tsdz2: will not even argue! I know they're delicious, but trouble.

cheers!

sub7 said:

//quote=calab
/ quote=Chalo ]

Love the Honest inputs!

With my short and humble exp, the BBSHD has been rock solid. Just an expensive option to me if building a fleet.

I noticed that even on the hardest hills, using the right gear will gently climb you up using no more than 250-300W.

But let me clarify something: this is not a rent and leave. The tours are guided (4 to 5 people). Just gravel roads, but sloped.

On top of that, will be limiting amps/power. Shouldn't these be enough to protect motor/controller?

About the Tsdz2: will not even argue! I know they're delicious, but trouble.

cheers!

Click to expand...

From the sounds of it, you are thinking the rental riders are experienced riders that know how, and are willing to shift the bike as necessary. I believe that's being pretty optimistic....

If you insist on mid drive, I'd be much more inclined to go BBSHD for the extra controller durability. Then all you would need to worry about would be drive line issues.

You might consider though, a 1000w Bafang hub drive powered fatty. Plenty of power, durable, and brain dead easy to ride.....

/ quote=AHicks

just debating, but seems feasible to demand cycling experience if you're offering mtb tours, thks

but

it's got to be a way to protect these so acclaimed reliable little motors from human stupidity. just have to find out how



seeing from my perspective might help:

a good 1000w hub drive kit here will cost the same as a bbshd kit

and wont work that well for climbing, suck double battery juice for half torque...

and... to build a bbs02s is half the money


this might be and eye opener experience, but i'm actually building a 750w o2 to my wife so she can come along with me and kid sometimes

picture: she can barely use the gears...

build: very light bicycle, small frame, no throttle, limited to 18a

what can possibly go wrong?

I know this is a DIY forum and I love building the bikes myself too, but I would consider your business model carefully. It might be better to use commercially made ebikes instead of building them yourself. There will be a lot of maintenance with either, but no manufacturer support for the latter. The commercial ebikes will have a cleaner and more professional look as well. The upfront investment may be higher, but the maintenance costs (if warrantied for commercial/rental use) could be lower. You will also need to get business insurance and that may be easier with factory made ebikes.

sub7 said:

just debating, but seems feasible to demand cycling experience if you're offering mtb tours, thks

but

it's got to be a way to protect these so acclaimed reliable little motors from human stupidity. just have to find out how

Click to expand...

You'd probably have to give each rider a "riding test" proving to you that they can use the bike correctly, then.

Then after they show you on a pedal-only bike taht they can do it, you give them a parking-lot-lesson on using the electric version, to be sure they understand the differences.


Just based on n00b (and other) threads here on ES and elsewhere over the years for people with middrive bikes and mechanically-caused problems, it's fairly likely that you're going to end up with broken stuff when people don't use it correctly. (totally aside from the inevitable crashes that would happen even on pedal bikes).

Some of those would happen even with hubmotor bikes...but some of the damage will be exacerbated with the motor power thru the pedal drivetrain. Irrelevant if hubmotors can't do the work you need the bikes to do, though.

Lots of private people are renting their stuff out in the online classified websites.

thanks! can't argue much with that, you're absolutely right. Put more money upfront, but preserve your investment.

RunForTheHills said:

I know this is a DIY forum and I love building the bikes myself too, but I would consider your business model carefully. It might be better to use commercially made ebikes instead of building them yourself. There will be a lot of maintenance with either, but no manufacturer support for the latter. The commercial ebikes will have a cleaner and more professional look as well. The upfront investment may be higher, but the maintenance costs (if warrantied for commercial/rental use) could be lower. You will also need to get business insurance and that may be easier with factory made ebikes.

Click to expand...

I must assume my exp with ebikes in general is pretty shy so far. gonna pay more attention on points of failure.

I do plan to do maintenance myself innitially. But have to charge accordingly risking to reach a upper price close to what people are asking to rent turbo levos...

and, to rent DIY mid drives (exclusively and small fleet) got to be a "I'm lending you my bike" type of business. Big risk. Maybe worth taking if you're also promoting other things.

cheers

amberwolf said:

Then after they show you on a pedal-only bike taht they can do it, you give them a parking-lot-lesson on using the electric version, to be sure they understand the differences.


Just based on n00b (and other) threads here on ES and elsewhere over the years for people with middrive bikes and mechanically-caused problems, it's fairly likely that you're going to end up with broken stuff when people don't use it correctly. (totally aside from the inevitable crashes that would happen even on pedal bikes).

Some of those would happen even with hubmotor bikes...but some of the damage will be exacerbated with the motor power thru the pedal drivetrain. Irrelevant if hubmotors can't do the work you need the bikes to do, though.

Click to expand...

not where I live.

There are renting business on vacation spots and some mtb bike parks, and other variants that go to companies to teach "sustainable mobility"

but I really saw this kind of "airbnb exp" from the begining...

cheers

calab said:

Lots of private people are renting their stuff out in the online classified websites.

Click to expand...

sub7 said:

/ quote=AHicks
just debating, but seems feasible to demand cycling experience if you're offering mtb tours, thks
but
it's got to be a way to protect these so acclaimed reliable little motors from human stupidity. just have to find out how

seeing from my perspective might help:
a good 1000w hub drive kit here will cost the same as a bbshd kit
and wont work that well for climbing, suck double battery juice for half torque...
and... to build a bbs02s is half the money
this might be and eye opener experience, but i'm actually building a 750w o2 to my wife so she can come along with me and kid sometimes
picture: she can barely use the gears...
build: very light bicycle, small frame, no throttle, limited to 18a
what can possibly go wrong?

Click to expand...

A BBS02 and a 1000w geared hub will pull pretty much the same power when ridden side by side on level ground, all else being equal.

This is fact I can share first hand, as I ride a 1000w MAC 12t powered bike frequently (geared hub), and a Bafang Ultra powered bike the same (mid drive).

If the big motor is using more power, it's because the rider is telling it to. NOT because it needs to. It takes X amount of power to move a bike. As long as both are able to generate X amount of power, 2 bikes ridden side by side (lets say a 500w geared hub and a BBS02, or a BBS02 and an Ultra) will use the same amount of power. The difference comes into play when the smaller bike is not able to make X amount, but the bigger bike is. At that point, the bigger bike is using more power than the small one.....

The lady that can barely use gears (like my wife/long time riding partner) is EXACTLY who I'm thinking of when recommending the big geared hub drive. You might be surprised at her ability to climb on a rig like that. And for God's sake, put a throttle on it! For an inexperienced rider trying to get a bike moving from a stop while pointing up a hill, that throttle will be a Godsend. From the standpoint of getting a bike moving from a stop that's been stopped in the wrong gear is another HUGE reason for a throttle! Just getting the bike moving using the throttle while collecting your balance is a just reason for having a throttle, even if it's not used again on that ride. As I said, the geared hubs are brain dead simple to ride. If you are considering a fleet of bikes, home built or purchased over the counter, you owe it to yourself to know a little more about geared hubs.

NOT saying geared hubs are better than a mid drive. Saying each has their purpose, AND that the geared hubs are brain dead easy to ride.

Just the higher occurrence of snapped chains from this abuse even if the motors are fine will cause headaches as they hold up the whole tour so the guide can fix it. Not saying they will happen constantly but certainly more than on a bike that is properly shifted and you multiply the chance by the number of riders and rides. A well selected geared hub motor also can be biased towards being good at climbing and with a low top speed as you don't really want them to be able to go fast anyway.

Stupid Question:

I have seen lots of stories about e bike rental companies ... most of them going out of business.
Has any e-bike rental company in the US ever been a success ?

You should test your idea with regular mountain bikes first before you invest. One step at a time. I don't think there is a huge market for ebike-only rentals. I would start easy and build up from there, eventually testing an ebike option down the road.

Speaking for myself, I would be MUCH more likely to try/rent an e-bike given the option.....

AHicks said:

A BBS02 and a 1000w geared hub will pull pretty much the same power...


The lady that can barely use gears...

you owe it to yourself to know a little more about geared hubs.

Click to expand...

Yacks! Got to leane more about hub motors. If it's all this trouble-free, easy to ride and will climb / be fun, why not?


The lady might not even pedal with a throttle, but you got a point. She might gain more confidence either. Thx!

All things got to be break down for cost.

Aftermarket / ready to rumble mid drive bikes always come with shimano/brose, etc well into proprietary territory.

scianiac said:

Just the higher occurrence of snapped chains from this abuse even if the motors are fine will cause headaches... A well selected geared hub motor also can be biased towards being good at climbing and with a low top speed as you don't really want them to be able to go fast anyway.

Click to expand...

To me, regular bikes won't attract much people, except around parks. If you want broader audience, ebikes are a must. Most people have never ridden one.

ee1337 said:

You should test your idea with regular mountain bikes first before you invest. One step at a time. I don't think there is a huge market for ebike-only rentals. I would start easy and build up from there, eventually testing an ebike option down the road.

Click to expand...

Have no idea, but I have seen a few small business that also develop their own / one of a kind bicycles and might also profit selling them. So the rent business is a tool to bring customers?

Thinking big, the PBSC Urban Solutions from Canada seems to be spreading their mid drive bikes all over the world. It is a very ingenious bike, with everything out of standard measure, 24" tires, and other features that disencourage theft almost everywhere. Big investment and mostly used for big companies to promote sustainability, but that small rent fee of about u$7 i thing might actually bring profit instead, cause they're always mostly gone.

LewTwo said:

Stupid Question:

I have seen lots of stories about e bike rental companies ... most of them going out of business.
Has any e-bike rental company in the US ever been a success ?

Click to expand...

I live near a mountain resort area. There are a few shops that rent bikes. I think that they rent both ebikes and non-electric bikes, but I mostly see people riding ebikes the last couple of years. They haven't gone out of business and there has actually been more tourists during Covid. It isn't all super hilly, but the forest trails are so I can see the attraction of a motor. The shops also sell and repair bikes and at least one is also a snowboard/ski shop. None of them run tours as far as I know and I don't know what the market would be for guided ebike tours. They park the bikes out in front of the shops so that people can see them when driving by and it is obvious that they rent bikes. For guided tours, you will have to do a lot more marketing to get customers. You will have to do your research. Another option is to partner with a store that already rents bikes and run guided tours out of their shop with their bikes.

sub7 said:

All things got to be break down for cost.

Aftermarket / ready to rumble mid drive bikes always come with shimano/brose, etc well into proprietary territory.

scianiac said:

Just the higher occurrence of snapped chains from this abuse even if the motors are fine will cause headaches... A well selected geared hub motor also can be biased towards being good at climbing and with a low top speed as you don't really want them to be able to go fast anyway.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That's not true at all. Start with Rize and Biktrix, but there are plenty more that don't use/need proprietary parts....