50.000 km without issues, is there any mid-drive motor able to do this ?

Jil

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Bordeaux, France
Hello,

I'm looking for a very reliable mid-drive motor, with torque sensor, able to withstand at least 50.000 km without major issue.
Is this realistic ? Is there any motor able to meet these criteria ? Bosch CX, Shimano EP8, Brose S-Mag, Yamaha PW-X, Bafang M..., Panasonic, etc ?

I know that the Bafang BBS is well known for its durability, but torque-sensor is a must for me (and the BBS has a simple pedal-sensor). And the TSDZ2 doesn't seem to keep up in terms of reliability for such mileage.
 
Jil said:
Hello,

I'm looking for a very reliable mid-drive motor, with torque sensor, able to withstand at least 50.000 km without major issue.
Is this realistic ? Is there any motor able to meet these criteria ? Bosch CX, Shimano EP8, Brose S-Mag, Yamaha PW-X, Bafang M..., Panasonic, etc ?

I know that the Bafang BBS is well known for its durability, but torque-sensor is a must for me (and the BBS has a simple pedal-sensor). And the TSDZ2 doesn't seem to keep up in terms of reliability for such mileage.

Is the assumption with regular servicing and maintenance like with a car or any other vehicle, or run it until it dies/breaks?
 
Indeed the assumption is that it will be self-serviced regularly (greasing, belt change if needed, etc...).
I would prefer to avoid motors for which you need to go back to the retailer or even manufacturer to get basic maintenance or repairs.
 
Wouldn't you want a hub if you want reliability? Most bicycle chains and gears are not designed for the forces and wear mid-drives put on them. With a hub you can isolate the motor to a smaller part of the bike and less of the power components. You can also slap a pair of torque arms on to make the border between human powered and motor powered extra strong.
 
lnanek said:
Wouldn't you want a hub if you want reliability? Most bicycle chains and gears are not designed for the forces and wear mid-drives put on them. With a hub you can isolate the motor to a smaller part of the bike and less of the power components. You can also slap a pair of torque arms on to make the border between human powered and motor powered extra strong.

He may not want to add a Cycle Analyst. The OP seems to be asking a specific question, and he's in the right subforum to ask it. I like hubs too, but try not to evangelize in the mid drive forum, especially without knowing any details about how he'll be using the bike.
 
Jil said:
Indeed the assumption is that it will be self-serviced regularly (greasing, belt change if needed, etc...).
I would prefer to avoid motors for which you need to go back to the retailer or even manufacturer to get basic maintenance or repairs.
I think I'd assume a good chance of having to replace a part or two at some point, so maybe focus more on parts availability, unless the motor uses all metal gears. Are you looking at factory bikes, or going to fabricate a frame to put the motor in?
 
Very unlikely that you'll get this kind of reliability out of an add-on mid drive motor, there's lots of moving parts that wear, and then there's bike parts that will get wear on them ( chain, derailleur, etc ).

I don't know of a mid drive that's built to last a long time - there's some craftsman ones that are rather expensive that might fit that category.
 
I have an Scott e-bike with a Bosch active line mid drive, Using it for 40 000 km soon and motor still run flawlessly
 
lnanek said:
Wouldn't you want a hub if you want reliability? Most bicycle chains and gears are not designed for the forces and wear mid-drives put on them.
For climbing capacity, especially offroad.
My GMAC (with Phaserunner and CA) is wonderful but clearly limited on 29" wheel on steep inclines. Above 10-12%, it overheats quickly, even at relatively low power (around 3-400 watts).
 
E-HP said:
Are you looking at factory bikes, or going to fabricate a frame to put the motor in?
I'm going to manufacture a special frame for this motor.
 
NisseMan said:
I have an Scott e-bike with a Bosch active line mid drive, Using it for 40 000 km soon and motor still run flawlessly
Interesting feedback, thanks ! What bike is it ? What maintenance have done on the bike ? What kind of use do you have with it ?
 
That's a specific usage, I know, perhaps I'm looking for something that doesn't exist : reliable mid-drive motor for intensive use both on road and off road. In other words, an ebike version of the motor of my Yamaha Ténéré 700 :wink:
 
Jil said:
NisseMan said:
I have an Scott e-bike with a Bosch active line mid drive, Using it for 40 000 km soon and motor still run flawlessly
Interesting feedback, thanks ! What bike is it ? What maintenance have done on the bike ? What kind of use do you have with it ?

My commuter bike, Scott E-Sub 2017, regular maintenance. Tyres, chain,drive cassette, brake pads etc.
 
Jil said:
lnanek said:
Wouldn't you want a hub if you want reliability? Most bicycle chains and gears are not designed for the forces and wear mid-drives put on them.
For climbing capacity, especially offroad.
My GMAC (with Phaserunner and CA) is wonderful but clearly limited on 29" wheel on steep inclines. Above 10-12%, it overheats quickly, even at relatively low power (around 3-400 watts).

Geared motors have the worst heat shedding characteristics of all hubs.

The right motor for a 29" DD wheel would be ebikes.ca's RH212 ( has a couple extra poles vs a usual DD - this makes it output more torque ). 3-4lbs heavier though so it will make for a negative effect on your rear wheel suspension.
 
I love my CYC X1 Pro
Ive got nearly 10,000 km on mine so far, no issues.

it has great torque sensing as well.
 
Jil said:
I'm going to manufacture a special frame for this motor.
A sideways thought:

Since you will be making a special frame specific to whichever motor you choose, have you considered putting the GMAC into the frame to drive the bike's pedal drivetrain along with the pedals? There have been a number of hubmotors converted to middrives over the years in various ways.

Then the motor itself should not be a concern, as it will likely last a long while, and parts are likely to be available.

You can then simply pick gearing ratios appropriate to the pedal speeds you would be going on the hills, and gear the motor to the pedal drivetrain with a ratio that puts it at your pedal cadence. Then the motor will simply provide extra power to your pedalling (or replace your pedalling, driving the bike the same way your pedalling does (or would have).

As long as the motor does not drive thru the cranks themselves (like the stokemonkey) but does still drive the same front chainring the pedals do (to output into the bike's gearing) then you can still use a torque sensing BB (so if you already have one you can keep using it), to sense pedal torque and control the system's assist.

The Cycle Analyst is one way to read the sensor and control the assist, but there are other controllers that could do it (I think VESC could be configured to do it, and the KT open source firmware (OSFW) can), so the controller would directly deal with all input and output and no CA or other computer/control-device would be needed.
 
Thanks amberwolf, that's an idea :)
But I prefer to stick more to "off-the-shelf" motor systems for this bike.
 
Jil said:
Thanks amberwolf, that's an idea :)
But I prefer to stick more to "off-the-shelf" motor systems for this bike.

Have you already done the research to narrow the field to the models you can buy directly, including any proprietary parts required? In other words, are the of motors/systems you listed all viable options, so your just looking at their reliability?
 
E-HP said:
Jil said:
Thanks amberwolf, that's an idea :)
But I prefer to stick more to "off-the-shelf" motor systems for this bike.

Have you already done the research to narrow the field to the models you can buy directly, including any proprietary parts required?

It would be for a small series of bikes. So I know that Bosch is not an option (they already told me that they don't sell below... 5000 units :mrgreen: ), for Yamaha I still have to investigate.
ideally I would have preferred a motor without a dedicated battery (like Brose), but if I have to choose between opening to third-party battery and reliability, I pick up the last.
 
And for the prototype it's almost sure that I will choose a Bafang M510, which is easily available per unit and remain open to third-party batteries.
 
Bafang ultra must be the best motor now I think
For hub motor the mxus xf19c is stronger than my Gamac 10 motor and takes a lot more to overheat.It easily outperforms my bafang bbs750 on steep mountain roads here i Norway and dont get hot while I cant hold my hand on the bbs02 750
 
Jil said:
E-HP said:
Jil said:
Thanks amberwolf, that's an idea :)
But I prefer to stick more to "off-the-shelf" motor systems for this bike.

Have you already done the research to narrow the field to the models you can buy directly, including any proprietary parts required?

It would be for a small series of bikes. So I know that Bosch is not an option (they already told me that they don't sell below... 5000 units :mrgreen: ), for Yamaha I still have to investigate.
ideally I would have preferred a motor without a dedicated battery (like Brose), but if I have to choose between opening to third-party battery and reliability, I pick up the last.

which brose takes whatever battery ? Chinese bms battery you mean ?
 
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