The Little Motor that Could…

DingusMcGee

10 kW
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
946
Location
Laramie, WY
Having built 3 edirtbikes with 3 different motors — the Cyclone 6k, the QS2000, and the QS3000 — I was left wondering about what the QS1000 motor could do? The wattage this series of QS motors can handle is about 10x the model number or 10,000 watts for the QS1000. The very lightweight QS1000 motored edirtbike is up and running with comparison tests and getting improvements.

0F575BD6-BDB8-44A8-9FED-6883549487C7.jpeg

The pedals are foot pegs only and the crank arms may get shortened.

60980B94-299A-42C8-9903-01860F9C9F96.jpeg

The Votol EM 100 controller’s model name may be a misnomer as the word “100” suggests 100 amp but it’s maxi amperage is only 80 amps so, so far, the motor has gotten a mere max wattage of 6800 watts. The Votol was a hand-me down controller yet still a safe wattage to be begin testing. The QS1000 motor may get the Fardriver ND 72530 controller as this controller can readily put out 10,000 watts with the graphene battery pack on the bike.

Votol controllers are only programmable with a RS232 to a pc computer. The short worded evaluation of Votol is Bill Gates has cost me more down time than anybody.

More to follow
 
A CycleAnalyst was installed on the Broadie QS1000. This morning I converted an old CA-DP model to a CA-DPS so the bike now has a wheel speed sensor [it was a hub motor speed setup] The instrument does read out instantaneous watts. A new shunt from ebike.ca was also installed.

After the CA installation it was time for a monitored performance run. The bike was running a Votol EM 100 controller which says on it’s top: 80 amp max and this output is consistent with table below.

AAE7DF39-BA89-4D62-8AB8-EDD32CDA870C.jpeg

If I could find a section of snow free pavement I could do a test run. I did manage to find a short section of almost snow free gravel. For the WOT run I glanced to see some 8400+ watts and a top speed 30.4 mph was recorded— which is not close to full speed. However, the perplexing part of the save data max’s was the max amperage.

855C7AF2-C34D-45A4-A949-D90911A897C0.jpeg

The max wattage RO is consistent with the max amperage for the 80+ volts batts charge but this high of an amperage output is above the specified max amp output for the controller even if it is a Votol EM100S.

Are CA’s amp readings sometimes off? I will rig another shunt to compare. Amperage errors aside, I would then suspect the motor can through-put 10,000 amps satisfactorily for burst runs of say a 1/4 mile and that this much power is usually more than enough for hill-topping when using these very light edirtbikes [80 lbs]on such trails.
 
Is the CA calibrated to the exact resistance of the shunt? Normally for the Grin "45A" shunt, that's 1.000milliOhm. If it's a different shunt, the CA has to be set for whatever it's mOhm value is.

If it's not, the current reading will be off proportionally to the difference from what the shunt actually is to what the CA setting is.

Also, the CA Amax records even very short peak currents, which can happen even with controllers that have much lower continuous maximum ratings.

To know what the max continuous current is, you'd need to be watching the display, or logging the serial output of the CA and look at the log after the ride.

There's been at least one Android app written as a dashboard for the CA, that takes the serial output and displays it realtime on a phone or tablet, I don't recall the project name but there's at least one of them here on ES. I don't recall if Grin makes one yet.
 
Amberwolf,

Thanks for the suggestions. They were helpful and motivating.

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From the CA set-up calibration. We see

B51F0EA8-23A1-4DF8-8B78-1DF0D5C62199.jpeg

Amps corrected 107.8 amps x .76 mohms/1.0 mohms = 81.92 amps which is reasonable as another bike’s CA has recorded some max of 81.+ amps for the Votol EM100. We are back to a motor wattage max of 6480 watts.

R-shunt was reset to 1.000 mohm.
 
My votol em—150 has so far put out anything i set it at up to 300A battery current, my battery cannot do more. I think j bjork has gone even higher so if it’s an unlocked Votol then more than 100A is likely to be possible (with increasing risk for the controller)
 
Hi larsb,

Thanks for informing me about how one may override the declared maximum current of this series of Votol EM controllers. I still have the 4 wire USB cable and have found a friend with a PC & USB port, so I may try changing the max current on the EM100.

For now I will install on this bike a hand-me-down Votol EM150 controller rated 120 amps and limit it progressively upward as I monitor the change in performance. The bike likely has too high of a sane gear ratio for applications beyond 100 amps of torque and will get a higher top speed when the ratio is lowered for 120 amps?

Snow here this evening so no testing until I can find dry pavement.

Yesterday after the R-shunt correction, the max amps was 82.71 amps — in the ball park.
 
larsb,

I will be monitoring with a CA. I did try a 200 amp shunt but the analog RO needle bounced around too much for pinpointing an accurate amp reading.
 
The Votol EM 150 controller that first powered the QS3000 edirtbike, then next moved to the QS2000 edirtbike, is now on the QS1000 edirtbike. The controller has never been programmed by the rs232/pc method by me as it worked quite well on both the QS 3000 & 2000 motors.

Since the QS1000 motor/EM150 controller could be eventually be running at 120 amp, I changed the QS1000 rear sprocket from 48T to 40T. Today the streets has sections of dry pavement and so several 3-4 block run-ups were done.

The CA is not hooked to monitor /change the throttle mapping but it monitors the R-shunt. The CA was set at 99amp max and 8400 watts max.

The first ride was wild — after a fast acceleration the motor reached that warbling RPM cadence where maybe the controller or CV is limiting max motor current, speed or something—fluctuations of sorts? This motor when it was running the EM100 did this same warbling[no limits set], and then would break in to short time period of gaining higher rpm and soon top-out. Not so with the EM 150 powering at full throttle while warbling. It broke out of the straight jacket after the warbling RPM and with acceleration as robust as ever to become a run-away. Dialing the throttle back down did not change the earlier WOT response/action. I turned the key off to stop it.

The throttle response would go to zero when released if you did not go through the warbling RPM phase — maybe up to 33mph. The data gained from 4 rides beyond warbling rpm zone was the workings of the 120 amp controller.

120DFD47-F455-4E60-B269-F4055D867CD5.jpeg

After 4 x 1/4 mile runs the motor was not even as warm as my hand zooming to speeds of 47 mph — with still more left.

The going wild throttle response is not desired. Are the limits I set on the CA causing this WOT response?

Paging Amberwolf — any ideas? Perhaps too much gain set in Wgain?
 
Sub'd bike looks fast! I also just purchased this QS 90 1000 should be in my hands soon, says 7k burst!
 
Skeetab5780,

7 kw bursts? That’s low.

Be sure to get a big enough controller for 7kw++.

Mine may have did 136.6 amp x 80 v = 10,936 watts.
 
DingusMcGee said:
The CA is not hooked to monitor /change the throttle mapping but it monitors the R-shunt. The CA was set at 99amp max and 8400 watts max.
If the CA is not wired between your throttle and the controller, *and* set to limit the throttle, then it doesn't matter what the CA limit settings are, it cannot affect the controller in any way.

If the CA *is* wired between your throttle and the controller, *and* set to limit the throttle, then if it is actually limiting, one or more of the letters on the lower left of the Diagnostics screen
https://ebikes.ca/pub/media/wysiwyg/V3CA_Screen11.jpg
V3CA_Screen11[1].jpg
will be capitalized at the moment the problem occurs. Which one(s) are?

Then to fix it, we'd need to know what the CA settings are in order to figure out which (if any) are the cause of the problems.
 
DingusMcGee said:
Skeetab5780,

7 kw bursts? That’s low.

Be sure to get a big enough controller for 7kw++.

Mine may have did 136.6 amp x 80 v = 10,936 watts.

Ya that is just what the websites say, I am pleased to see your results! I only have a EM100 right now so I will need a new controller too!
 
To much snow for any fast bike rides to test changes to CA & controller.

skeetab5780,

Check out the Fardriver ND76530 controller or a little smaller version?

https://www.far-driver.com/nd72530black-blue/

I have 3 Fardriver controllers and prefer them over the 3 Votol controllers they will replace.

Both the Dun-electric store and Newdoon ebikes can get the Fardriver and they will accept PayPal US$ avoiding the Ali-Exp and eBay cut. You may save more than $40.

See vender relations threads:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&p=1747079#p1743123

Do note that Newdoon Ebikes will high ball the first RFQ but you can get them down some 30% — they say, “We negotiate”.

Fardriver controller communicates with Apple iPhone — no RS232 wires & PC.
 
This mornings test consisted of bypassing the motor feed-thru power that with an in use CA would normally go through the CA. The CA was battery powered to record speed.

On acceleration and after passing thru the warbling RPM phase the bike motor went into run-a-way mode. Again upon returning the throttle to zero the bike kept accelerating. After two high speed runs the motor temp was 62F while ambient was 28F. There was no power or amperage monitoring.

D1899930-85D9-4BAA-B914-FCE7A470D41B.jpeg

For what it’s worth this motor could punch into the 60+mph top end? The motor cost $141.00.

Before blaming the run-away state on the controller, I will have to check the throttle output voltage response. The throttle voltage output may not be that returning to ~1.0 volt when turned to WOT and then released?
 
how did you get the motor so cheap do you live in China?? Or are you not including shipping which is likely over $100

I paid $350 from a USA vendor because I am far too impatient to wait for China shipping

Edit: Got mine in the mail yesterday only took 6 days to arrive! Looks like a beast
 
Skeetab5780,

The delivered to USA cost depends on how you do accounting. I set out to order one motor thru Alibaba but their site actions showed nothing in “my orders” and their messages system it turns out did not work for several days. I placed a second order and still no feedback. Two days later, when a ‘new message system’ was up & working, Siaecosys ask, did I really want 2 motors? They could ship 2 motors in one box. This was a message offer that was ask about 2 hrs after placing the orders.

Alibaba was retaining my CC info which is impossible to disallow when you are given a query with only a “yes” choice. Since I did not check ‘yes’, I thought there was no way for them to collect $$ without CC info but sly Alibabi had retained my card info and billed me twice.

Chase credit card service in disputes gives 60 days for replies. Alibaba did not respond whatsoever to Chase about my claims. My account was then credited the full cost of one motor and shipping with no return stipulations stated.

Siaecosys of QS motors then ask me to pay in full. I told them to pay return shipping. They said the motor would not clear China customs. Next they told me unless I paid they would not sell to me anymore. Threats? Fine, the mixup was resolved by a third party judge and their internet agent-negotitator [Alibaba] failed to reply to a USA remedy. Then, they ask me to pay for just one motor and no shipping — presently they are off celebrating some holiday — no payment sent yet.
 
Well that seemed to worked out great for you in this very unlikely to repeat scenario. But for the good of the forum it is a bit misleading to say that $141 is the everyday cost of the item to a US consumer if you catch my drift. We are here to learn and help the forum thrive with self made EV's not pretend like we are getting a great deal thru credit card disputes.


Either way your input is appreciated, And I look forward to more updates on your build!

Are you running the stock 428 sprocket that came on the motor or have you changed to something else? I feel like the sprocket is huge and a bit overkill for my bikes.
 
Both the primary and secondary chain drives are 410H. The original motor sprocket was ground on one side at 3 degrees until the 410H chain rollers fit into the sprocket troughs for 360 degrees of sprocket revolution.

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The sprocket gets very hot if not cooled with water intermittently. The grinding process is sort of a fitting process so frequent stops are needed to see when the chain fits properly.

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That looks like alot of work! But that sure did come out pretty nice! I don't even own a grinder that big I just have a dremmel tool

Thanks for the pics

I am going to take the sprocket off the motor shaft so I can get some pics of the shaft length and diameter for sprocket sizing. My bike has a 415 sprocket on the rear which I could change, but this 428 sprocket is so beefy it probably weighs 5 pounds alone!
 
Skeetab5780,

There is one motor detail that creates mounting complications of the motor frame bolts to the side plates on the chain side.

The motor has 4 mounting bolts, two of which line up in line with the drive side motor plate that is fastened to the BB shell.

BF4AD8F3-FE6C-41E7-BB47-FBBEC3C2E93A.jpeg

The needed shift in alignment has very little play to the left or right if you use a short BB axle. My axle length is 173mm. Since I wanted to have adjustable motor frame translation for easy chain adjustment, these extra 4 mounting bolts also had to have easy access.

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The left side

F97C7C9C-1B96-4FD1-B1ED-AAB5894CB044.jpeg

4 bolts, which are the same diameter as the motor fastener bolts, are employed in the plate translation for chain adjustment.

9C1F9594-FDA8-48AE-B26A-E6A5C68520FB.jpeg
 
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