The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of process

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of process

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 10 2010 9:08pm

I'm making this thread so people can see the process involved in broaching the freewheels without needing to read through 50 pages in multiple threads.

I didn't leave anything out of the videos, so I think they should pretty much answer all the questions about the process just from watching them.

The process has been improved since the first few we did. We go for a press-fit now to eliminate any wiggle on the freehub splines. It means you gotta spend a little more effort installing/removing them, but it makes a better final product.


If you want freewheels broached, this thread can also be used for setting that up.

This is the final product:

Image

Image


And these 3 videos show from start to finish, how a freewheel goes from being thread-mount to being spline-mount. All video is available in 720P HD if you select it. This is the entire process with minimal editing, so if you know how it works all ready, it's going to bore you, or if you're a fast learner, just skip ahead to the different steps. :)

Enjoy!





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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by paultrafalgar » Apr 11 2010 5:00am

I take my hat off to you guys, that's excellent. But, since we ought to be making these with the urgency of building Spitfires in WW2, isn't it about time Eno did the hard work for you. I don't want to deprive you of your work, but these could be churned out by the thousand in a properly design manufacturing system - come on venture capital - what are you waiting for?!
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Miles » Apr 11 2010 5:15am

paultrafalgar wrote:But, since we ought to be making these with the urgency of building Spitfires in WW2, isn't it about time Eno did the hard work for you. I don't want to deprive you of your work, but these could be churned out by the thousand in a properly design manufacturing system - come on venture capital - what are you waiting for?!
I've got a design for volume production in hand but we're not at that stage yet. Just be grateful that Luke and his father are be prepared to do this, for us. :D Also, thanks to Thud for the tooling. :D

Love the videos :D

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 11 2010 5:37am

I think ENO offered to do it for something like $2,000 tooling cost + buying 100 units, and then they exclusively would own the tooling that we would have to puchase.

It would be roughly $7-8,000 to get it started if I remember correctly.

I would LOVE to make that happen if we can get enough interest together for group-buy to reach the cost minimum.

I broach these things for free, and even paid the return shipping costs out of my own pocket for many of them, and just trusted that folks would paypal Thud for his work.

Normally I've got a cash surplus, so it's not a big deal to me. Tax-man just hammered me badly... So at this time, donations (or shipping costs) are definately welcome now. (thanks Slobuild for your kind donation!)

I will still do it 100% free for anyone who is struggling to get a build together on a shoe-string budget though. :) I will never forget what that's like, and never forget how awesome it was when people helped me when I was dead-broke in college. lol
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Miles » Apr 11 2010 5:53am

liveforphysics wrote:I think ENO offered to do it for something like $2,000 tooling cost + buying 100 units, and then they exclusively would own the tooling that we would have to puchase.
The tooling cost would be around $2000 to $3000. The minimum order would be for 160 units.

I worked out a design which could be machined without broaching (no tooling cost), which I discussed with Doug White, last year - but it would still be subject to the 160 units minimum order.

Maybe we should wait and see how the Dual Drives stand up to the punishment? If we aren't going to put the motor drive through a hub gear, there is less advantage to having it drive the right-hand side......

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by paultrafalgar » Apr 11 2010 6:32am

Miles wrote: If we aren't going to put the motor drive through a hub gear, there is less advantage to having it drive the right-hand side......
Can you expand on that, Miles, please. I don't understand how a motor that drives that Eno can be a hub motor? I know you like to be cryptic :D , but pander to the stupid for me if you will :oops:
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by paultrafalgar » Apr 11 2010 6:44am

I just came across this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVs_g9xseE
I expect it's been posted before.
No hijack intended.
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Miles » Apr 11 2010 6:44am

Cryptic? moi? :shock: :) I said "hub gear" (the dual-drive), Paul :wink:

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Ypedal » Apr 11 2010 9:08am

Nothing says it better than a video !... that's pure awsomeness !

Took me a while to figure out wtf this was all about until ( I think it was Miles's Daugher ? ) a video was shown with a manual press and the process.. alot faster with the log splitter !

I'm stickying this for a bit. thanks !

Edit to add : I'm surprised the process does not destroy the internals ? The forces during the broachin process i think would deform the unit, has anyone run one of these for a significant amount of time after ? ( I know eno's are rebuildable, so bounus++.. but just curious )
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Thud » Apr 11 2010 9:45am

Y-
The internal section is fully suported as the spline relief is cut, so the bearings see no stress in cut.
realitivly speaking, the broach cut is a fairly small one, add that this alloy machines beautifly.
I am waiting to hear the reveiws in use & some long term durability reports.
good show on the sticky.
I intend to use dual freewheels & right side drive on all future "serial drive" builds.
get some......

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Miles » Apr 11 2010 9:49am

Ypedal wrote: ( I think it was Miles's Daugher ? )
I have a daughter? :shock:

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Ypedal » Apr 11 2010 11:51am

Hmm.... now i know i did not just imagine such a video.. :lol: .. Thud.. you got a daughter ?
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 11 2010 12:30pm

Ypedal wrote:Hmm.... now i know i did not just imagine such a video.. :lol: .. Thud.. you got a daughter ?

It was some strangers daughter on youpube making a video for school. lol


Like Thud said, his clever tool makes it so the freewheel never has any loading on bearings or ratcheting mechanism. You can even take just the center part of the freewheel and broach it just as easily as broaching a whole unit. :)

Thanks for the sticky! I think it will make it handy for folks trying to set-up group freewheel buys and broaching stuff. :)
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by jmygann » Apr 11 2010 9:43pm

Anyone have a motor and dual drive in the works ?
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Mark_A_W » Apr 11 2010 9:54pm

How about some info guys?

How much power can you put through the hub?


How many gears are there? What reductions?

How much are the bits?
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by veloman » Apr 11 2010 11:30pm

I think the Sram DD would handle most high power loads okay, when at speed. The danger will be in starts where torque is significantly higher.


If the ENO splined piece is any bit as strong as a cassette spline, then there should be no problem. It's amazing how those little ridges can handle so much torque. On my road bike today I did some granny gear accelerations from 5-17mph in 2 seconds up a ~15% grade, doing wheelies while standing. The amount of torque on those splines in such a situation is enormous. With a steel hub body, it holds fine.
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Miles » Apr 12 2010 12:38am

Mark_A_W wrote: How much power can you put through the hub?
As much as you like, dependant on wheel size and rpm :P
How many gears are there? What reductions?
3 speeds [ 0.734; direct; 1.362 ]

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by drewjet » Apr 12 2010 6:14am

liveforphysics wrote:
I broach these things for free, and even paid the return shipping costs out of my own pocket for many of them, and just trusted that folks would paypal Thud for his work.

Normally I've got a cash surplus, so it's not a big deal to me. Tax-man just hammered me badly... So at this time, donations (or shipping costs) are definately welcome now. (thanks Slobuild for your kind donation!)

I will still do it 100% free for anyone who is struggling to get a build together on a shoe-string budget though. :) I will never forget what that's like, and never forget how awesome it was when people helped me when I was dead-broke in college. lol
Luke, Great video, it is nice to be able to see the whole process, it's not much different than I imagined, except for the amount of time required. When you were preparing mine I offered to send you money as thanks and you graciously refused. If you post up your paypal, I will still be happy to send some $$$ your way.
jmygann wrote:Anyone have a motor and dual drive in the works ?
Mark_A_W wrote:How about some info guys?

How much power can you put through the hub?


How many gears are there? What reductions?

How much are the bits?
You can see my build here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=16705

As far as I know I am one of the first with an operational setup using the Thud/LFP broached Enos.

You can put some serious power through these things. I am running as 3220 on 28 volts, my CA has showed peak amps of 175 Amps = 8400 watts. With this kind of power you are always chasing down the next weakest link. So far the Eno's have proven to not be that weak link.

If budget is a concern in your RC build, then I suggest you stay away from this design. It is intended for serious power, and when you want serious power you will pay for it. I have $750 in my motor/reduction drive from Recumpence and about $200 in Eno's (adding up purchase, shipping, donation to Thud, and to LFP). Then you have to add in ESC Batteries and Misc. Not a budget friendly way to go.

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by Mark_A_W » Apr 12 2010 6:49am

I don't understand.

Isn't the power going through the internals of the SRAM hub? You have two freewheels sitting on the cassette spline don't you?


Surely that is the weakest link?
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by drewjet » Apr 12 2010 8:20am

I don't want to hijack Luke's thread. This is about the process. If you have more questions you can ask in my thread.

But to answer your question the freewheels sit on the freehub. I chose to not use the SRAM DD yet as I think that would be the weak link, right now I think it is the freehub.

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 12 2010 11:28am

Lots of suspecting the SRAM DD wont handle 5-10kw, but nobody has broken one yet, and Gary has been running an Astro 3220 through his at full tilt, and it's handled it fine. Like every tranny I've ever worked with, there will be some shock-load level or some power level that breaks it. The question is if we're going to reach that in our E-bike needs.


IMO, the spokes would all pull out of the rim well before the splined connection would fail. Splines are an absurdly strong method of torque coupling. I would be surprised if the freewheel to hub splined connection wouldn't hold at least 2,000ft-lbs of torque.
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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by slowbuild » Apr 12 2010 11:47am

many thanks for taking the time to shoot the videos, certainly it is now clear how the process is achieved!
Well done!!

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by reload » Apr 12 2010 8:05pm

oh man, nice work!

i can see why eno isn't willing to front the tooling cost. who's the market in these? mainly just us hahaha.

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by katou » Apr 12 2010 8:53pm

Dude, you may have the coolest dad ever. I think I will just have the FW sent directly to you if that's okay. I'll PM you when I have the $$ together. Now I see your shop, I understand how you can build cool stuff. My shop is humble, but with time...

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Re: The freewheel broaching sign-up thread, and video of pro

Post by MrBoots » May 07 2010 3:59pm

For anyone considering a moderately-powerful RC system, I think the ENO might be the only viable option. My cheapo freewheel from Monsterscooterparts is now toast with maybe only miles on it. Luke - sent you a PM!
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