Planning for first time 2100Wh build.(Noob)

Hello girls and boys women and man.

I'm James Kapteijn and I live in the Netherlands at the moment. I'm following a bachelours degree in automotive engineering in Rotterdam.
Sinds I started my degree, electric bikes got my attention and have been planning for a first build for a long time now, but as a student the budget is small but I have a big passion to be succesfull in the first build. So I have been looking at this forum for a long time to learn stuff and creating idea's for my own build.

At the moment I'm designing a frame from scratch to house the following components:
- batterie (6s4p) 66.6 v 32 Ah pack
- 2 or 3 speed gearbox or hub from a mtb or nexus hub.
- Mid drive setup like cyclone,recumpence's system of a rc setup.
- Controller
- All the electronics for the the controller, handlebars and lights.

The base of the build will be the geometry of my current bike. This is a beone aspire 1.0. The frame size is precise wat I need to sit comfortable. 6 foot 6 is not the smallest of people. When I have the geometry in the computer I'll design it further. I dont like sketching because i like to work out the ideas straight away.

This weekend I'll measure the frame up and base my design from it.

Update 4/7/2013 New route continues from post 12.

I want to DIY because it's a good learning experience. And I know I'm al over the place and it's hard for u guys to keep track but by your comments I look in to things and having new ideas straight away. So my head is buzzing al the time and trying out new things and searching what I m looking for.

I have decided that I'll go the easy route with the drive train. I like the idea of the RC motor because it's easy to test and in the basics very easy I think (or could be wrong).Well the principals of every electric engine is the same but I hope you guys know what I mean. I read this http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28424 of fellow dutch person that made a friction drive on his bike. So that is a good indication what reduction is needed for this type of engine.
Well I think every body has it's own approach to his or her build so I ll go with a belt drive that attaches to the crank and from the crank to rear wheel with a rear derailleur 3 speed. I'll put it in the computer


Frame wise I'm still wanting to build my own but with a geometry with the pointers of Willow. and based on something existing.

Best regards,

James kapteijn

gearbox? what gearbox? I thought you wanted to use the hubmotor?

Lyen makes some great controllers, check out www.lyen.com to see his list.

Hi James, welcome!

Perhaps your gearbox will be for pedaling?

Making your own forks sounds interesting, what type do you plan to construct?

When you say the C will be just one, do you mean discharging at 1C max? 32 amps for your 32Ah pack? If so, I would suggest a 12 fet controller with IRFB4110 mosfets. That will be light, compact and sufficient for your voltage and current requirements. I've also used Lyen controllers with good success.

Sorry guys I was not clear on some parts.
The idea was to use the hubmotor in the frame and have a two gear reduction.
The reason is I want to use the hubmotor is because there are some advantages over then wehen de hubmotor is placed in the wheel.

- The unsprung weight of the wheel is much lower, this will result in a better handling bike.
- By using the motor in the midle the center of gravity of the bike wil be more in the midle wat results in a balanced driving machine.
- a lichterweight rear suspension construction can be used or a different material.
- a hubmotor is more quiet then other mid drive motors.

The gearbox that I want to make is two speed based on some car transmission parts. So it wil synchronised and everything.

Well I thougt to use only 8ah or maybe 12ah or 16ah if needed to have the right acceleration.
But on first hand I was planning to only discharge with 8ah.

The front fork will be like that from dh hill bike. But then with dual brakes and big diamater axle. Like on a Derbi scooter/motorbike. The components wil be like from standard pasrt frrom sram or something. It is just I like the style from a dh bike but the travel is just to long for my application. So it will be a hybrid between a bike and scooter frontfork, because it still have to maintain it liteness.

Welcome to the forum. This sounds like an interesting build. Stokemonkey made a motor to be used much like you are planning. Ebikes.ca sold them, but they are out of production at the moment. Ebikes.ca is working to bring them back into production.

I saw what Tench did with his motor and that was something I would like to do. To transform the motor axle to a spindle axle like type.
I still have to finish the Frame in Inventor and then I'll put it up amd see what you guys think

This is the frame at the moment.


The special thing about this frame is that it's going to be made from sheet aluminium or chromolybdeem. By bending on crucial points it will get it's strength.
Also I like the clean look that is accomplished by putting al the wires in the frame it's self.

If you have some sugestions then please share I'm here to learn

Best regards,

James

Considering your approach, this is a must read thread for you - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32950

Tnx Willow,

Thank you for you help
I have made some changes to the frame because I need some cooling for the engine and maybe batteries.

Packaging


New side view


Now to make the carbon side air-inlets and panels.

If you have advise please let me know

...some comments.

66V 32AH is a lot of batteries, and the weight is significant. This weight should be placed as low and central as possible. Move your batteries to the bottom of the frame and position the motor to the rear of the pack. The use of a hub motor mid-drive is probably not ideal. A small, high power motor and reduction gearing will be a more efficient solution. It will take up less room in your frame, should be lighter and (if geared correctly) will work at a higher efficiency. A more efficient system will require less batteries to achieve your goals... saving weight and coins $$.

Base your geometry from a bike that already exists - something that works, and is proven.... step away from the computer for a while, pick up a pencil and sketch out your designs - numerous times, then do it again. Make some cardboard models, ply wood or plastic before launching into building the real thing.

Save your time and effort on building forks by getting some low-cost production forks - Chinese dirt bikes have cheap (reasonable quality) forks - or look to brands such as DNM for higher quality MTB stuff without spending a fortune. Guarantee you will spend more $$ trying to build your own.

Think of the bike as a collection of modular units - design the modules, then integrate them into the system. Don't underestimate the amount of wiring and other components outside of the controller that you will have to deal with, switches, fuses, shunt, BMS, DC-DC converter??

Keep doing your research, and if in doubt ask the good people on this forum.

Look forward to seeing your project come to life. Don't rush it!

another thread defenitely worth reading - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42262

Tnx Willow for the comment, very help full indeed
I liked the links you gave me and they are very inspiring and I'll use some ideas in my build!

You made me think over my frame and choice of motor. But I still remain with some questions about a couple of motors I have seen.

My intrest goes to the cyclone unit or rc motor from hobbyking.

The cyclone is the easier route because it's been done a manny times and the feedback and trouble shooting will be easier
Futher I'm not really intrested in the Rc but don't want to throw it out the window straight away, and make a option of this type of engine I would have to do more research.

I also looked at the GNG but they dont have the power outputs that I m looking for so turned them down. and I'm really leaning to the cyclone 650 watt. Thereare some information I would like to know. The 650 Watt is the same as the 650-1500 watt one? And how can it be that tis one is cheaper then less powerfull one's?

I read somewhere that it's hard to use a leyen controller with a cyclone motor or did I mis read that? If so what should I use as a controller?

Cheers James

I know that I m going to use belt drive from the cyclone to the crank just for the noise reduction and change the grease in the plannetary gear reduction.

I would update your first post of this thread with an accurate and comprehensive description of what your building.

Since your going with mid-drive, if you want quality I would go with recumpence's system

Hello Stig.

I updated the first post to the point where I am. I have looked at some threads like the friction drive and the used a turnigy RC outrunner motor.
And I did see the speed and acceleration of this unit and was impressed. Also the price of a RC motor is really low so I can experiment with them and that is always a good thing

I want to DIY because it's a good learning experience. And I know I'm al over the place and it's hard for u guys to keep track but by your comments I look in to things and having new ideas straight away. So my head is buzzing al the time and trying out new things and searching what I m looking for.

I have decided that I'll go the easy route with the drive train. I like the idea of the RC motor because it's easy to test and in the basics very easy I think (or could be wrong).Well the principals of every electric engine is the same but I hope you guys know what I mean. I read this http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28424 of fellow dutch person that made a friction drive on his bike. So that is a good indication what reduction is needed for this type of engine.
Well I think every body has it's own approach to his or her build so I ll go with a belt drive that attaches to the crank and from the crank to rear wheel with a rear derailleur 3 speed. I'll put it in the computer

Frame wise I'm still wanting to build my own but with a geometry with the pointers of Willow. and based on something existing.

A litle update.

I defenitly going to do a friction drive just to learn the needed electronics and when this bike is finished I ll start my main project

Got this koga miyata bike from my girlfriends father:


The plan is to make friction drive with a Turnigy sk3 6374 motor. Still have to look in the type of esc but I ll get there.
I might buy the adrian commuterbooster but that is to easy for rookieengineer like me.

But first a holiday to France 8)

Interesting, I honestly have a lot to learn about friction drives, i think this will be totally a pedal assist bike as I think friction drive can put down about as much power as a human pedaling?

Hallo fellow forumers,

I ordered a month ago an bafang BPM 36v 500 Watt motor.
And I m going to use it as a bb (mid-motor) drive type. This will involving the conversion from the hub to axle drive.

Today I opend the motor up after making a key for the cap. If somebody want's a dxf for the tool I made for a lasercutter just send me a PM.

The motor is farely the same as a BPM 1 model with the way it taken apart but I think there is a difference in the way the axle is attached to the stator.

I have made some pictures today and also from the key.



Pictures of the axle connecting to the stator



And the other side.



And now what is left how I'm going to make the axle spinn.

Kind regards,

Jadarit

6s4p of battery is 21.9V LiFe and 25.2V LiPo of whatever capacity. Cheap friction drive here: http://e-motion.lt/bbpress/topic/329 use translator

...don't re-invent the wheel (or motor). No need to modify the motor to have the axle spin - simply not required. A hub motor is fixed by the axle, and should be used as such. The drive sprocket you screw onto the thread of the motor housing should be a free-wheeling type, and will work as you want without modification to the motor.

YUP. That's how it's done with a hubmotor as a chain drive. The axle still bolts on solid, the motor still spins, turning a sprocket that screws to the cover on the right side.

I'm going to move this topic over to ebikes non hub, were more chain drive guys will see it.

The Netherlands is so flat that a multi-speed is unnecessary, so why accept the loss in efficiency and increase in failure risk and noise over a hubmotor? Plus it takes up so much prime space right where the best location is for batteries.

I'd worry much more about wind and how it will effect range than about multi-speed. Make the bike lower and more sleek through the air for heading into the wind when it's blowing hard.

John in CR said:

The Netherlands is so flat that a multi-speed is unnecessary, so why accept the loss in efficiency and increase in failure risk and noise over a hubmotor? Plus it takes up so much prime space right where the best location is for batteries.

I'd worry much more about wind and how it will effect range than about multi-speed. Make the bike lower and more sleek through the air for heading into the wind when it's blowing hard.

Click to expand...

100% agree

Hi,

Willow said:

...don't re-invent the wheel (or motor). No need to modify the motor to have the axle spin - simply not required. A hub motor is fixed by the axle, and should be used as such.

Click to expand...

Unless you want to improve it. Check the thread below.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45245

surely, if you want a motor with a spinning axle, you would buy a motor with a spinning axle???

Unless your doing it for "educational purposes"

The idea is to build a workhorse for testing prototype systems in different circumstances and not just for the Netherlands.

Willow said:

...don't re-invent the wheel (or motor). No need to modify the motor to have the axle spin - simply not required. A hub motor is fixed by the axle, and should be used as such. The drive sprocket you screw onto the thread of the motor housing should be a free-wheeling type, and will work as you want without modification to the motor.

Click to expand...

Yhea I know but the idea is to use active cooling for hard abuse en lubrication the gears. And with a spinning housing this would be a far more difficult thing to accomplish.

Willow said:

John in CR said:

The Netherlands is so flat that a multi-speed is unnecessary, so why accept the loss in efficiency and increase in failure risk and noise over a hubmotor? Plus it takes up so much prime space right where the best location is for batteries.

I'd worry much more about wind and how it will effect range than about multi-speed. Make the bike lower and more sleek through the air for heading into the wind when it's blowing hard.

Click to expand...

100% agree

Click to expand...

In the city it's handy to have more gears and like u said at strong headwinds. Otherwise you just put it in the highest gear and enjoy.

And what stig says it's for educational purposes.

Still have to figure some things out but I'll keep u posted!!!