Direct Drive Genesis

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 01 2017 9:44am

The Kelly controller is a hands down necessity now that I have tried one. You have to program it tho or they are deadly at these current levels. But for the size nothing will pack the punch this does. I saw the sine wave one but wasn't worried about it since ive already heard how quite these things are and didn't think it would be that much more efficient.

I finally went for a long over an hour joyride with nothing breaking on the bike and no flat tires! I went up every hill in the area, it handled great and the power was amazing. I had a 5S low volt cutoff buzzer hooked up to the Multistars and I was expecting to hear it on big hill climbs... But it never went off once! Now I am talking about hills that I have never gone up once on any ebike ive ever owned for the last 7 years since they are too steep and rocky to even attempt with bike tires even with pedals to assist.

Motor was pretty hot after this abuse but it never stalled or hesitated once, even on slow crawl climbs. At the end of the ride I could put my hand on the motor for about 10 seconds before I had to pull away from it hurting. Controller was warm to the touch and so were the Multistars. All in all it was a successful day of bliss.

There were a few spots I thought I was going to get a pinch flat on since I only have 30PSI in my rear tire still, but the downhill tube prevailed! Went all day and still have a good tire.

One thing that immediately caught my attention was how bad my right thumb hurt from controlling this half twist throttle and trying to also hang on for dear life from this bikes brisk acceleration at the same time. I cannot wait to try the new thumb throttle whenever it arrives from China slow post.

Here are a few before mid and after pictures of the bike. I crossed two small streams and had to walk it over one river, it got nice and muddy in a few spots.
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DanGT86   10 kW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by DanGT86 » May 01 2017 11:47am

What are your current limits right now?

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by dirkdiggler » May 01 2017 1:25pm

I thought you already had a thumb throttle on your bike? My reading comprehension needs work! That's one of the reasons I like that throttle. Trying to have your hand ready to brake and use the throttle at the same time is hard to do. Next project would be to add foot brakes! If LMX uses that throttle, they should be good. He's done a lot of testing. I always argued that no motorcycle has a thumb throttle why would I want one on a bike? Didn't think about the rear brakes being controlled by the foot and the fronts the right hand. Just wish the throttle had a bit smaller footprint on the bars. Haven't gotten the chance to ride it a ton lately due to weather, but I was sold after the first ride and bought three more for my other bikes.

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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 03 2017 9:13am

DanGT86 wrote:What are your current limits right now?
Not sure, but controller is programmed to 100% and its a 55amp controller. Kelly rates their stuff weird tho i think off motor phase current?

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by madin88 » May 03 2017 1:57pm

skeetab5780 wrote:
DanGT86 wrote:What are your current limits right now?
Not sure, but controller is programmed to 100% and its a 55amp controller. Kelly rates their stuff weird tho i think off motor phase current?
it isn't so hard:

you first set the motor current in percent, than you multiply this value (in amps) with the percent you set for batttery current.
an example with 55/130A rated controller like yours:

motor current: 80%
130A * 0,8 = 104A phase
battery current: 50%
104A * 0,5 = 52A battery
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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 03 2017 3:08pm

Thanks for the calculation sir

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 03 2017 3:11pm

Anyone have experience with the max dead end throttle settings on the Kelly Controllers? Mine was set from the factory to 80%

If I increase this to 100% will I have a higher top speed? Motor speed is already set to 100%

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by madin88 » May 04 2017 11:56am

skeetab5780 wrote:Anyone have experience with the max dead end throttle settings on the Kelly Controllers? Mine was set from the factory to 80%

If I increase this to 100% will I have a higher top speed? Motor speed is already set to 100%
ok, another example :lol:

the controller senses the throttle input from 0-5V
a hall throttle usually has an output range of about 0,9-4,1V
if you set the lower end now to 20% and upper end to 80%, the controller will start to apply power once 1V exceed (5V * 0,2), and will apply full power at 4V (5V * 0,8). i always leave at least 0,1-0,15V deadband.
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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 05 2017 7:34am

madin88 wrote:
skeetab5780 wrote:Anyone have experience with the max dead end throttle settings on the Kelly Controllers? Mine was set from the factory to 80%

If I increase this to 100% will I have a higher top speed? Motor speed is already set to 100%
ok, another example :lol:

the controller senses the throttle input from 0-5V
a hall throttle usually has an output range of about 0,9-4,1V
if you set the lower end now to 20% and upper end to 80%, the controller will start to apply power once 1V exceed (5V * 0,2), and will apply full power at 4V (5V * 0,8). i always leave at least 0,1-0,15V deadband.
I understood everything except the last sentence. Thanks for the detailed explanation! So potentially if I adjust the down end a bit lower and the higher end a bit higher say 10%-90%

would I get to utilize the .9v and the 4.1v that I wasn't able to reach prior to this? would it make throttle control worse or give me more steps?

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by madin88 » May 05 2017 11:31am

if you set it to 10-90%, it means 0,5-4,5V.
hall sensor based throttles have about 0,9V idle output, and 4,1V when full open. this means the controller will see already a little throttle input at startup and it would never apply full power to the motor when fully open.
probably you will get a fault at start up.
as mentioned, you must leave a little deadband which means the programmed throttle range should be AT LEAST tighter as the output range of your throttle.
the smaller the deadband, the better the resolution. 20-80% should work well :wink:
the low and high threshold settings are for fault protection (it will detect broken wires). 5% low and 95% high should be good.
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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 06 2017 7:14am

Thanks mad! appreciate the input

What about changing the controller mode from torque to speed? Does that increase top end or just make torque worse and top end more efficient?


Here is my Kelly setting as of now. I do not use regen yet but I may use it soon after I put a reed switch into the mix, not sure if its really necessary.
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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by DanGT86 » May 06 2017 3:28pm

If the Torque/speed mode is what I think it is than you want to leave it on torque. I think when set to speed the throttle output=desired motor speed and it will output max current to get you there. It would probably make the throttle feel really twitchy and annoying. That is usually only good on low power setups that have a natural delayed ramp up due to lack of power.

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nutnspecial   1.21 GW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by nutnspecial » May 06 2017 4:35pm

Could be it's a 'simulated' speed throttle, even worse?

I do like my speed throttle-- but if you 'whack' it, prepared to get whacked back lol! No way I'd use a full twist grip with it, or go without a 3spd switch though :evil: .
'Liken the kelly info skeetab, and the bike looks like it performs really well with the smaller 50a controller. Their setup looks really streamlined too.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by Drum » May 07 2017 2:18am

Hi Skeetab,
I think Dan is correct. If you swap to "Speed" mode, when you apply say 30% throttle the controller will apply full torque in an effort to get you to 30% of max RPM as quickly as possible.. not desirable with the power you have.
My Kelly has a hybrid mode, part speed / part torque, which might be worth a try, but I think torque mode will suit you best.

Regen: My Kelly can be set up so one of the inputs controls regen in an analogue fashion. Makes it possible to use a left-hand thumb throttle (assuming your throttle is on the right) to bring on and control variable regen. Much better than fixed rate regen. I think that would suit your setup really well.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 08 2017 6:58am

Drum wrote:Hi Skeetab,
I think Dan is correct. If you swap to "Speed" mode, when you apply say 30% throttle the controller will apply full torque in an effort to get you to 30% of max RPM as quickly as possible.. not desirable with the power you have.
My Kelly has a hybrid mode, part speed / part torque, which might be worth a try, but I think torque mode will suit you best.

Regen: My Kelly can be set up so one of the inputs controls regen in an analogue fashion. Makes it possible to use a left-hand thumb throttle (assuming your throttle is on the right) to bring on and control variable regen. Much better than fixed rate regen. I think that would suit your setup really well.
Thanks Drum that variable regen thing sounds like a good idea. Do you know if my Kelly can do that also? I haven't looked into the regen functions all that much I just made sure it didn't turn on automatically when you let off throttle.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by Drum » May 08 2017 2:30pm

Kelly Rgen: Your controller is covered by this user manual: http://kellycontroller.com/mot/download ... Manual.pdf
All the info you need is there, but a bit cryptic if you haven't played with them before.

From my reading of the manual and the screen shots you have posted, my suggestion would be:
-add a throttle of the same type as you are using for the main throttle;
-connect the throttle's output to the dark gray wire / pin 2 of the controller so it sees a varying voltage as you operate the throttle;
-Connect the controller to your computer and open the Kelly program. On the "Regeneration settings" page, change the "Brake Sensor Type" to match the throttle you are using. Adjust the "Brake sensor Starting Point" and ".. Ending point" to match the throttle (as per the main throttle setup).

Should work at that point (but I am not guaranteeing it.. I have played with only one Kelly before so am not really an expert)..

If the regen is too strong and can lock the back wheel under some circumstances, try enabling the "ABS" function and / or reducing the "Maximum Regen current" setting.

With that motor and controller, I would think you would only be using the back brake for coming to a complete stop, or emergencies.. you should get enough "braking" for normal riding just off regen. It is a great feeling knowing you are capturing as much as possible of the "wasted energy" and putting it back in your batteries for re-use.

Remember though: If necessary to protect the controller or battery, the controller is programmed to stop regen, so it is possible for the regen effect to suddenly disappear without warning. If, for example, you had a long downhill early on in a ride, and the regen had charged the batteries to maximum voltage, the controller would stop all regen and you would need to get on the back brake lever.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by madin88 » May 08 2017 2:59pm

I never noticed a difference between speed and torque.
try it out and compare the throttle response. you cannot do anyting wrong :)
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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 10 2017 5:04pm

Got my thumb throttle in the mail. Seems pretty decent besides the cord being way too short. Will have to get it installed tomorrow!

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 12 2017 9:15am

Im not sure how I feel about this thumb throttle its extremely dangerous feeling as of right now, maybe ill grow into it. It feels like it only has about 5 throttle steps total and it responds almost too fast now so if I'm travelling fast and let off throttle and then slowly ramp it up again while coasting it almost makes a shutter/downshift feeling that scares me until the throttle reaches the speed of the motors rpm's again

I think maybe changing the throttle up down rate from 1 back to 2 might help this? also the thumb throttle has a noticeable dead spot at the end of its push almost 30 percent past full throttle and you can keep pushing it but it doesn't do anything.

First of all the wires were only about two feet long so I had to cut my old throttle cord and extend it with it....real nice
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I might need to put it on the other side of my brake lever? I think that's how they are on atv's
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Last edited by skeetab5780 on Oct 02 2017 9:07am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 12 2017 9:40am

I just programmed the throttle up down rate to two and its still just as bad, im assuming this Chinese three wire throttle is 0-5v hall signal? its the same gray ones used on LMX

also I decided to move the thumb throttle on the inside of the brake lever it feels a bit better and I have long thumbs
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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by DanGT86 » May 12 2017 12:02pm

Are you running a CA3 on this bike?

Most of the annoying throttle behavior can be tuned out running a CA. For example the CA3 has a setting called something like "fast throttle up". It basically ramps the throttle up at a super fast rate until it detects the motor load change then it resumes the normal rate. This takes all the weird slop and jerkyness out of rolling throttle changes. You can also tune the deadbands out of any throttle and any controller using a CA3.

Might be worth using if you dont have one or dont have it set up.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by Drum » May 12 2017 2:27pm

It would be a good idea to put a multimeter across the output of the throttle to see what voltage it is putting out at various positions.
You would be able to see how much of that behaviour is caused by the properties of the throttle which cannot be altered, and how much could be tuned out with the Kelly programming and / or a CA3.

For example: you say that the last 30% of the throttle movement makes no difference. If the multimeter showed that the voltage reached its maximum at 70% throttle position then did not rise further, then that is inherent in the throttle and can't easily be changed. If the voltage does keep rising during the last 30% of the movement, then you should be able to reset the Kelly program to suit.

You would be able to see the minimum and maximum voltages the throttle gives out, and calculate what percentage of 5 volts those figures are, allowing you to set the "throttle effective starting" and "throttle effective ending" parameters more accurately.
Good luck
Dave

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 13 2017 8:47am

DanGT86 wrote:Are you running a CA3 on this bike?

Most of the annoying throttle behavior can be tuned out running a CA. For example the CA3 has a setting called something like "fast throttle up". It basically ramps the throttle up at a super fast rate until it detects the motor load change then it resumes the normal rate. This takes all the weird slop and jerkyness out of rolling throttle changes. You can also tune the deadbands out of any throttle and any controller using a CA3.

Might be worth using if you dont have one or dont have it set up.
Lol do you see a CA display on my handlebars in the 100 pictures above? :) jk i obviously dont have one on this build. Not sure it will get one either i like the KISS design.

Do you remember how much your swingarms weighed when you shipped them out? Just curious

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DanGT86   10 kW

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by DanGT86 » May 13 2017 9:03am

Haha. I knew you were going to call me out on not looking at the pics. I hear you on the KISS theory but as the power goes up it gets harder to tame these things. I've been riding with a Domino throttle and CA3 for a year and now I'm testing my RC motor genesis setup with a junk ebike $5 throttle and its unbearable. I didn't realize how much the Domino was spoiling me. I should have bought 2.

I think the Swing arms were just under 8lbs all packed up. I would say no less than 7 lbs. I'll weigh all the parts for one and give you a better estimate minus weld.

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Re: LR Direct Drive Genesis

Post by skeetab5780 » May 16 2017 9:38am

Drum wrote:It would be a good idea to put a multimeter across the output of the throttle to see what voltage it is putting out at various positions.
You would be able to see how much of that behaviour is caused by the properties of the throttle which cannot be altered, and how much could be tuned out with the Kelly programming and / or a CA3.

For example: you say that the last 30% of the throttle movement makes no difference. If the multimeter showed that the voltage reached its maximum at 70% throttle position then did not rise further, then that is inherent in the throttle and can't easily be changed. If the voltage does keep rising during the last 30% of the movement, then you should be able to reset the Kelly program to suit.

You would be able to see the minimum and maximum voltages the throttle gives out, and calculate what percentage of 5 volts those figures are, allowing you to set the "throttle effective starting" and "throttle effective ending" parameters more accurately.
Good luck
Dave
Thanks for this info Drum, I will have to get my throttle readings and get back to you.

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