new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Dec 15 2020 5:00pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Dec 15 2020 4:40pm
Grantmac,

Do you research anything you post on this site?

http://www.qs-motor.com/product/qs-moto ... ive-motor/

From the above link I see the QS 4000W mid Drive motor weighs 12.8 kg

See Cyclone site

https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/15

From the Cyclone 6 kw motor site we see it weighs 5.6kg

It looks like motors designed by QS are not particularly well designed for saving weight? That would be about 16lbs heavier?

The QS motor 4000 w would put my bike at 94 lbs instead of the 78lbs with 6 kw Cyclone motor. That is a significant increase in weight and a significant decrease in power.
QS motors are under rated for even nominal, the Cyclone motors are almost rated for peak.

For example a lot of dirt bike conversions use the 3kw and 4kw QS mid motors, and they use them at 30kw and 40kw peak, without overheating or damage.

I have a QS 1kw motor, it has no internal reduction, it is 5kg, the cyclone coaxial with reduction is 5kg... the diameter is similar but the motor core is longer (70mm+ vs 45-50mm).

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 15 2020 6:45pm

Tommm'
For example a lot of dirt bike conversions use the 3kw and 4kw QS mid motors, and they use them at 30kw and 40kw peak, without overheating or damage.
So the controller that puts out the 40Kw for these dirt bikes might operate at 400amp @100 volt? Or 300 volts at 100amp for the 30Kw.

Could you please provide some links so we see who is doing this and at what expense?

Tommm,
. ... the Cyclone motors are almost rated for peak.
My cyclone 4K coax motor has briefly consumed 6800+ watts or about 1.7x above the nominal rating but not 10X of the nominal rating. 12.8kg/5.6kg = 2.29. So maybe we could say the 4K Q motor is really a 4 x 2.69 = a 9.14 kw motor? If it can peak at 1.7 x we get 1.7 x 9.14= 15.54kw. But is that 30Kw for just 0.001 sec?

Consuming 40Kw = 53 hp when almost stalled produces a huge % of heat.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Dec 15 2020 7:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Dec 15 2020 7:19pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Dec 15 2020 6:45pm
Tommm'
For example a lot of dirt bike conversions use the 3kw and 4kw QS mid motors, and they use them at 30kw and 40kw peak, without overheating or damage.
So the controller that puts out the 40Kw for these dirt bikes might operate at 400amp @100 volt? Or 300 volts at 100amp for the 30Kw.

Could you please provide some links so we see who is doing this and at what expense?

My cyclone 4K has briefly consumed 6800+ watts or about 1.7x above the nominal rating but not 10X of the nominal rating. 12.8kg/5.6kg = 2.29. So maybe we could say the 4K Q motor is really a 4 x 2.69 = a 9.14 kw motor? If it can peak at 1.7 x we get 1.7 x 9.14= 15.54kw. But is 30Kw for 0.001 sec?
The only way these ratings make any sense is in a controlled environment. Nominal should usually mean "guaranteed to not overheat using stated power continuously for Z time in a X temperature environment with Y airflow" .
Since a lot of these manufacturers don't run these tests, the wattages are more like a pissing match.

The QS mids seem to have taken up golden motor's space as they are quite cheap in the moto conversion community. If you are on facebook you can look into the "electric motorcycle builds" group, over the past year or two they have completely migrated for new builds. Just search QS motor/QS mid/QS 3kw inside there.

The QS mids spin very slow(2800-3500 at 72v depending on model) for the volts they are given, they use it from 72v to 96v, QS even provides tables about motor performance at 96v.
The guys building motos based on it either use: QS's own controllers (cheapest option) called votol em200 or em150, sabvoton 200a unlocked to 250a, bac4000/8000, or APT 72400 or APT 96 series going high voltage.
The motor usually lets them go 70-90mph on a sport moto for the 3kw version, or 90-110mph for the 4kw version. For dirt bikes they usually use a 2kw (pit bikes) or 3kw motor.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 15 2020 7:52pm

Thanks for the update Tommm.

So the cyclone 3K motor at 4.1kg when ratioed to 12.8 kg would look somewhat like 12.8 /4.1 = 3.122. This ratio 3.122 x 3kw = 9.36 kw.

The QS 2000 weighs 8.8 kg which is more than half of the QS 4000.

One wonders though what would be the wattage of a Cyclone motor weighing 12.8kg ? Maybe 13kw? Cyclones 18kw which is rated 14.4 kw continuous weighs 10.5 kg.

The data clearly shows that cyclone motors that weigh more have more output than a lighter cyclone motor but not exactly proportional.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Dec 16 2020 12:28am

At continuous 2.4kw the Cyclone "3K" is heading for thermal damage in my experience. At least when used for very steep technical climbs at lower RPM.

I haven't used the QS "1Kw" in similar conditions since my focus has shifted towards building very lightweight pedal assist EMTBs rather than ultralight motorcycles. Mainly due to a shift in living situation where trail access requires a very legal looking bike but with the benefit of amazing trails direct from home.
I do have a DH bike specifically waiting to be converted into a UL motorcycle, actually I think a similar generation of Norco to what Dingus is using.

I'm still debating power system however. If the CYC X1 can finally achieve reliability I'll be tempted in that direction with a left hand parallel drive. Or perhaps the QS1kw in a similar configuration using the left BB as a jack shaft. The 150mm rear hub offers a lot of real estate for LHD setups.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 18 2020 7:50pm

. by Grantmac » Dec 16 2020 12:28am

At continuous 2.4kw the Cyclone "3K" is heading for thermal damage in my experience. At least when used for very steep technical climbs at lower RPM.
You likely were in or had too high of a gearing?. Low RPM with high torque causes excessive heating.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 18 2020 8:16pm

The second Cyclone motor has been installed into a Speciaized Big Hit but into the small version of the bike which has a 24" rear wheel. A 26" rin and tire will not fit .

Its main feature is that it does not have sprocket jump. Sprocket Jump is a term describing the addition of 2 more sprockets one gets when adding a secondary chain reduction.

Nor does it have the chain growth one gets when adding a secondary reduction. Chain growth is measured by subtracting the total links in your old single stage reduction from the total links added that are incorporated into both the new secondary chain reduction and the new primary chain reduction.
IMG_0405.JPG
Note the chain snugger pulley and the fixed idler pulley -- redundancy
IMG_0405.JPG (288.94 KiB) Viewed 1887 times
.

There are no sprockets on the BB axle. The plate you see is a worn out 8" MK tile saw blade.
IMG_0404.JPG
Viewing the chainringless BB axle & crank
IMG_0404.JPG (303.81 KiB) Viewed 1887 times
The overall ratio appears to be 6(planetary) x 40/24 = 10.00 not 11:1

The ratio adjusted to a 26" wheel is 6 x 40/24 x 26/24 = 10.833:1

For this 6Kw motor we use 410H chain.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 18 2020 8:41pm

Tommm,

I just went for this motor for my 3rd Big Hit ebike. The link is slow.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001338 ... 35d57be100

This motor may have the power of the Cyclone 18K at less than half the overall price. It is about twice as heavy as the Cyclone 6K but rated at 3K. The extra steel? Must be doing something?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Grantmac » Dec 18 2020 11:16pm

The QS3000 is more like 1.5x the power of the 18kw cyclone, plus a better design for a single speed (IPM). The QS2000 is closer to the 18kw cyclone.

Chain growth will be increased by not using a sprocket at the crank. Its distance from the swingarm pivot which does it. Concentric countershaft sprocket=zero growth on single pivot designs, countershaft sprocket +10" ahead of the pivot= lots of growth.

My cyclone 2.4kw build uses a very high ratio first gear (24.75:1 if the gearbox is 6:1). It still won't climb what I want it to continuously, even in our very temperate weather.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Dec 18 2020 11:22pm


DingusMcGee wrote:You likely were in or had too high of a gearing?. Low RPM with high torque causes excessive heating.
Some use cases - steep long hills, heavy loads

require pushing that low,

with strong enough controller and battery

then thermal sensors in the motor are required to set the limit.

To me that is the best place for the bottleneck to reside.


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 19 2020 8:15pm

Grantmac,
Chain growth will be increased by not using a sprocket at the crank. Its distance from the swingarm pivot which does it. Concentric countershaft sprocket=zero growth on single pivot designs, countershaft sprocket +10" ahead of the pivot= lots of growth.
Are you lacking in kinematic awareness as to how my overall chain system's net chain pathways (upper and lower about the two sprockets) change in length as the swingarm changes angle? Please note and study the location of the black fixed idler pulley (and the fact that the chain runs on the bottom side of the pulley) on the lower chain pathway. Then consider whether the lower chain pathway gets longer or shorter upon suspension compression. Hint#1: it ought to be obvious that the upper chain pathway gets shorter upon suspension compression. Hint#2: the black pulley's shaft is just forward of and down from the lower stays pivot point.

What rate of change in overall chain length comes about from suspension compression as the black fixed idler pulley' location is moved toward the rear axle but it's pivot remains anchored to the BB shell (as it is now)?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Dec 20 2020 7:47am

it turns out I was after the 6k motor after all and not the 4k motor. Paco offered me a motor core alone to swap onto my 4k gearbox at a discount but I opted to buy a full motor instead, so he sold me one with free overnight shipping straight from china.

This motor is so much bigger and feels way more torquey, the 4k felt like a rubber band effect trying to catch up to the 80 amps being overfed to it, while this motor handles it effortlessly and feels like it can still take a little more, though with some cooling efforts, as it still heats up about the same as the 4k. so I do question how much more headroom I've bought myself. I did notice the outer casing for this motor is a MUCH more of a solid and thick piece of aluminum and definitely helps to absorb some heat. I still plan on venting the motor by forcing air through it with a blower fan connected by a hose like my 3k build, that was the only reason i could do 5kw continuous on that motor with no issues. My goal for this build is 96v nominal with ~90 batt amps for ~8.5kw of power, I feel this 6kw motor should be able to handle it with the right gear ratio and adequate cooling.

Can anyone comment on the cyclones ability to pair with a sabvoton controller? I've been reading it's a bad choice since it has a maximum ERPM of 30,000, and according to sabvoton that doesnt change between 72v and 96v versions. the cyclone is 8 pole pairs, so 30,000 / 8 mean it should only be able to spin this motor up to 3750rpm. Well I have a 96v sabvoton and tried it anyway, found the right hall phase combo to spin smooth and forward, but when I feed it 25s 96v nominal and spin it up without a chain, the app states a maximum of 5900rpm! I have the correct pole pair number in the app, and this is the rpm the motor is calculated to reach at 96v (62.5kv, at 72v it does 4500rpm, so 62.5kv @ 96v is exactly 6000rpm ), but shouldnt this not be possible even under no load? The goal was to acheive the rpms you get while using flux weakening on 72v, without having to actually use flux weakening. That way that gap of torque you feel before flux weakening kicks in is gone. I wanted the power band to extend morr finer control all the way into those speeds where flux weakening is more of an on off switch. Unfortunately the streets arent dry enough around here to test at speed but will I disappointed and wont get it past 4k rpm once theres a load?
Attachments
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IMG_20201220_074014_990.jpg (27.97 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
Last edited by matt912836 on Dec 20 2020 2:30pm, edited 4 times in total.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Dec 20 2020 11:13am

matt912836 wrote:
Dec 20 2020 7:47am
it turns out I was after the 6k motor after all and not the 4k motor. Paco offered me a motor core alone to swap onto my 4k gearbox at a discount but I opted to buy a full motor instead, so he sold me one with free overnight shipping straight from china.
Can you shoot some comparison pics?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 26 2020 7:51pm

matt912836,
. Can anyone comment on the cyclones ability to pair with a sabvoton controller?
I have had 2 Subvotan controllers. I burned up my first Cyclone 3K powering it with a Subvotan in deep snow, too high of a gear and no high temp reset. That controller graciously burned up at the same time but at some 80 - 90 amps recorded on the CycleAnalyst. I forget the other one's history but they were quite nice programming and were great performance wise. However they had no documentation and LA Vendor of these was of ZERO help with their setups.

Bear in mind that both of them were quite short lived. Maybe you can purchase an extended warranty for them if you buy over eBay or Amazon?

I can not help with adjustments for high RPM. But back at the time of Cy3k motor burn up I did post something on this thread about the Subvotan
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Dec 26 2020 9:19pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 26 2020 8:07pm

Red Big Hit edirtbike 6k performance report:

This gear ratio of 10.67 adjusted for 24" rear tire (see up a few posts) can do burnouts on substrates like dry dirt, mud, snow and ice but not on well locked partially exposed gravel embedded in dry highway asphalt on the flat We're talking speed range high #3 and fast start set = 10, slow start set "off".

Top speed = 38 mph.

Somewhere today the cycle Analysts reported max amps 78+. Controller is rated 80 amps.

And FYI Grantmac, I have no loose problemsome chain slap (chain growth)with all Range and speeds of suspension compression using that underside idler.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Dec 26 2020 10:30pm

Tommm wrote:
Dec 20 2020 11:13am
matt912836 wrote:
Dec 20 2020 7:47am
it turns out I was after the 6k motor after all and not the 4k motor. Paco offered me a motor core alone to swap onto my 4k gearbox at a discount but I opted to buy a full motor instead, so he sold me one with free overnight shipping straight from china.
Can you shoot some comparison pics?
Here is the 6k mounted, compared with the 4k being held by hand. they are even beginning at the right side cover. much more rotor area and much more solid aluminum side cover on the 6k. air cooling this thing will really make it shine and push it to its maximum potential

Image
DingusMcGee wrote:
Dec 26 2020 7:51pm
I have had 2 Subvotan controllers. I burned up my first Cyclone 3K powering it with a Subvotan in deep snow, too high of a gear and no high temp reset. That controller graciously burned up at the same time but at some 80 - 90 amps recorded on the CycleAnalyst. I forget the other one's history but they were quite nice programming and were great performance wise. However they had no documentation and LA Vendor of these was of ZERO help with their setups.

Bear in mind that both of them were quite short lived. Maybe you can purchase an extended warranty for them if you buy over eBay or Amazon?

I can not help with adjustments for high RPM. But back at the time of Cy3k motor burn up I did post something on this thread about the Subvotan
so im going to take that as the temperature sensor on the hall lines as a "fuse" to stop the motor when it reaches a certain temperature isnt very reliable? :oops:

sounds like putting in an actual temp sensor will be necessary when i open it up to make vents holes for the air cooling, and the sabvoton has a setting for reading that too and dialing back power

and so i think ive figured out the whole cyclone sabvoton thing out!
and im sure its all due to a simple mistranslation

as i contacted paco to find out the pole pairs of the motor, he replied "8"

as the sabvoton can only do 30,000 eRPM, and max motor rpm is determined by eRPM/pole pairs, 30,000/8 = 3750rpm

well i hooked up my 96v sabv to the 6k cyclone and WOW it works flawlessly! i got a top speed of 46mph on the road, which is super fast, considering my gear ratio is made for torque. with my gear ratio calculator 46mph would only be possible if i was getting 980 rpms at the output gear, with a 6:1 ratio thats 5800+ internal rpms!!

so i opened up my retired 3k motor just to double check things, and turns out its only 8 magnets total, meaning 4 pole pairs and not 8! im going to assume the 6k is the same exact things, just longer magnets to fill the wider stator

so that should actually be capapble of 30,000eRPM / 4 pole pairs = 7500 max motor RPM!

time to tune these phase amps and flux weakening :D

slide regen also works amazing since both front and rear sprockets are fixed

BUT ONE PRECAUTION FOR ANYONE USING A SABVOTON

there seems to be some kind of weird bug where if you wire up the motor so it spins smooth but backwards, and use the "motor direction" switch to spin it forward, then enable slide recharge, for some reason my motor would get stuck on full throttle at the point where the slide recharge was suppose to engage! basically you could hit the throttle once and the bike would get stuck on full power until shutting it off! very good thing i always tested with either the wheel in the air or the chain off!!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 08 2021 10:56pm

Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.
IMG_0432.JPG
IMG_0432.JPG (439.55 KiB) Viewed 1613 times
3 days later:
IMG_0674.JPG
IMG_0674.JPG (759.94 KiB) Viewed 1613 times
IMG_0675.jpg
IMG_0675.jpg (299.14 KiB) Viewed 1613 times
The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jan 09 2021 5:23pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 08 2021 10:56pm
Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.

IMG_0432.JPG

3 days later:

IMG_0674.JPG

IMG_0675.jpg

The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.
What sprocket are you using on the motor and the crank?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 09 2021 8:21pm

Hi Tommm,

The QS 3000 motor which came with a #40 chain cog of 14T width 5/16" has its chain going to a homemade 44T 9/32" wide sprocket. This "homemade" sprocket is 3 Cyclone 3/32 width 44T sprockets bolted together and I am running a #40 KTM continuous chain -- no master links as the motor position can translate forward for taking up chain stretch.

A 16T DICTA 3/16" = #415 chain free wheel cog is coupled to the White freehub where the 44T sprocket bolts. Both the DICTA and the white Ind freehub have Square Taper bearings inserted into them and roll freely on the 0.6250" diameter Square taper shaft. So using these bearing positions there is no eccentric single bearing loading. The petal axle spins freely in either direction of rotation.

The 26" rear wheel driven ebike gets a gear ratio of 44/14 x 48/16 = 9.4286. I haven't taken it to the edirtbike hills yet -- weather. But the low RPM control is very smooth. So far I am using the default controller settings as I have an RS-232 data cable on eBay order.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Jan 10 2021 8:35pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 08 2021 10:56pm
Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.

IMG_0432.JPG

3 days later:

IMG_0674.JPG

IMG_0675.jpg

The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.
I like how you mounted the QS just like the cyclone. perfect application for this motor too, since it needs a reduction, which your doing at the cranks like the cyclone normally would. the cyclones built in gearbox combined with a crank reduction was always a bad idea, all it did was make it harder on your drive train at high power levels. the qs should be a lot easier on your chain and cranks since its doing high rpms (4-6000) directly at the shaft, putting A LOT less torque strain on the drivetrain.

Although "a bit faster" means your not taking advantage of that motor! this motor is MANY times more powerful than the 3k cyclone could ever be! not only is it bigger than the 3k overall, but its entirely all copper and magnets! unlike the cyclone which more than a quarter of the motor is the gear reduction. even then, with the larger magnets and higher copper content, that motor should be strong enough where you could gear it for a higher top speed, say in the 40's, and still get the torque your getting now by adding more power through the controller. should widen your power band a bit too, your probably losing a lot of potential torque between 25-32mph by having it geared soooo low. this is a 138 correct? because that same motor is used in full sized motorcycle frame conversions, so theres no reason it shouldnt be able to make your bike absolutely insane!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jan 10 2021 8:41pm

Yea, the emoto people use the qs 3kw motor on 20-30kw dirt bike conversions. Even the qs mid drive 1kw is good for more power than a cyclone 3k.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 11 2021 9:14pm

Matt912836,

You say,"...just like the Cyclone. But with some major differences in the motor frame.

Tommm,

Thanks for supplying some details about QS motor ratings.


And Grantmac too, as this thread is for Cyclone,I will start a new thread on the QS 138 motor installation on bikes.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by electric_nz » Mar 13 2021 4:38pm

Looking at the cyclone 6k & gearbox for a single reduction left side drive cargo bike application. Top speed only needs to be 50kph but needs torque for hills & load etc.

Questions-

Does it have noisy steel gears in the gearbox or nylon like the 3k?

Does it have same bolt pattern/ diameter as the 3k?

Can a standard 14 tooth freewheel handle the torque?

Any other issues with the 6k in general?

Cheers!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Mar 14 2021 6:57am

electric_nz wrote:
Mar 13 2021 4:38pm
Looking at the cyclone 6k & gearbox for a single reduction left side drive cargo bike application. Top speed only needs to be 50kph but needs torque for hills & load etc.

Questions-

Does it have noisy steel gears in the gearbox or nylon like the 3k?

Does it have same bolt pattern/ diameter as the 3k?

Can a standard 14 tooth freewheel handle the torque?

Any other issues with the 6k in general?

Cheers!
Old name 4kw
https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/15
Old name 3kw
https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/12


The motor you call 6kw is the old 4kw motor (still says rated 4kw). It comes with the proper steel gears (not the weak nylon ones).

It is quite wide, not really suitable for an ebike application, more suited for a trike or people/cargo carrier bike.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 12:44pm

"...quite wide...?" I don't get it Tommm. He says he wants cargo bike which could be an ebike with a not so low Q-factor. Is a small increase in motor width much of an issue when pulling cargo?


electric_nz,


The motor frame side plates are the same as the 3kw motor side plates but the axle is longer.

The"standard 14T motor freewheel" --generic as comes with the 3K & 6K kits does not usually last very long. A 16T White Industry freewheel will likely last longer than the motor.


Other problems:

The frame is barely adequate and may need some side pulling mechanism as the right crank will with lateral motor frame drift start contacting the motor pulley. I stopped this drift motion with a long gear clamp.
IMG_0922.jpg
Gear clamp placed diagonal pulls motor pulley/shaft inward.
IMG_0922.jpg (366.3 KiB) Viewed 1111 times

The 3 phase wire that meet at and come from the motor plug are quit close together and once when milling through deep snow all 3 phase wires got hot, melted the scarce amount of solder and due to their sheath stiffness self ejected from the plug.

You ask, "other issues"? Maybe $$. Can you make a motor frame? Look into a QS 1000 or QS 2000 motor and controller. But installing the Cyclone 6K kit is mostly a plug and play situation.

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