new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Mar 14 2021 2:22pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Mar 14 2021 12:44pm
"...quite wide...?" I don't get it Tommm. He says he wants cargo bike which could be an ebike with a not so low Q-factor. Is a small increase in motor width much of an issue when pulling cargo?

You ask, "other issues"? Maybe $$. Can you make a motor frame? Look into a QS 1000 or QS 2000 motor and controller. But installing the Cyclone 6K kit is mostly a plug and play situation.
I didn't read the cargo bike part, I wouldn't get the 6k motor unless I was doing over 2000w and over 4000w peak... not sure if a cargo bike needs that in his case. You can get plenty torque if you gear it to 42kph max speed and up to 50kph field weakening. At that setting without a load going up a hill he should be able to do a wheelie and flip over before he runs out of power. I would however get the steel cogs for an application like that, the only benefit would be copper mass, which depends on what climate he rides in. If it's a warm country and he can accommodate the motor in the frame sure go for it.

The QS motors even the 1kw are a step up again in potential. I really don't think they are meant for bikes, maybe EEB style ones with moto wheels and a 4kwh battery and all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 3:09pm

So I know kW ratings mean almost nothing for motors

but saying the "6kW" version of the Cyclone

is less powerful than the QS at "1kW" rating

REALLY?

With a cargo bike intended to pull 500lbs up hills, I really doubt motor width would ever be an issue?

Let's please stop using kW ratings, and use model numbers, as specifically as possible

For QS, I would think 138 or 205 even 273 would be called for.

If usual actual load is 450lb then build to handle 600lb, and bigger hills, hotter ambients than you think necessary.

Performance without any cargo (other than the huge battery required) really is not relevant.


DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 6:11pm

Design Criteria

For the cargo bike, we ask at what load at what speed and how much grade (and how long), plus as we get to those high energy hauls the addition of 300 watts of human power becomes, may I say, insignificant. What we glean from this data is power needed which is what the batteries can produce, the controller can distribute and the motor can handle. So in some fashion we need the Kw's that the motor can produce and for how long.

John61ct, when I look at model numbers they give me KW ratings, which you say mean almost nothing. How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?

So far, Electric_nz has not specified much criteria that would aid in motor sizing but he did specify a motor model that has in it's name a version of it's power rating. He did ask about some qualities and experience with the Cyclone 6K, which the motor decal says 2- 6Kw .
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Cyclone 6K? Motor decal
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Last edited by DingusMcGee on Mar 14 2021 6:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

electric_nz   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by electric_nz » Mar 14 2021 6:17pm

Thanks for the info. I assume the steel gears are quite noisy?

The idea is to have a single reduction chain drive only- the large rear sprockets required to have a single stage QS motor will possibly not work in this application, although maybe a belt drive or kart chain could be an option.

Load is approx 150kg including rider so not too huge, daily climb of 250m over 4km plus another 10km flat ground. Ideal speed 40kph.

20 inch wheels; looking at putting the rear sprocket on the brake disk mounts.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 6:46pm


DingusMcGee wrote: How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?
There is none, only objective testing for a given use case, fed by a big enough battery and serviced by a suitable controller.

https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 6:57pm

electric_nz,

Here is some data that with some conversion may help you calculate minimum motor Kw output needed for the hill haul and speed.

On the flat, no wind, one of my hub motors used about 400watts at 20mph and 960 watts at 30 mph.. Mid drives seem to consume a little more power than hubs(so add 10%). The cargo bike will likely have more wind resistance than just a hub bike(so add 10%). This data is likely to be somewhat invariant of rider weight since conditions were on the flat.

You will pay 100% energy /power for all weight on the hill haul plus motor & drivetrain inefficiencies of production. Add this quantity to the flat rate.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 7:28pm

John61ct

How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?

There is none, only objective testing for a given use case, fed by a big enough battery and serviced by a suitable controller.
John, You have missed an important detail about motor testing.

At what temperature?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 7:35pm

Yes exactly, that is very often the most important limiting factor

both for the controller and the motor.

Ambient can make a big difference

but also placement in the airflow, ability to use stator fluid etc


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 8:03pm

electric_nz,

From Thevinan's Equivalent Circuits for motors we know these BLDC motors produce maximum power at 50% full RPM for a fixed voltage and they are 50% efficient at this rpm spot.

One Catch: At full power they produce an equal amount of heat which in the heat of summer may make the motor quite hot.

If you seek higher efficiency you will have to run the motor above 50% max RPM. More like 87% ? full RPM to get max efficiency.

Design from the power/rpm curve of the motor for the rpm where max efficiency occurs. You are now looking for a motor that produces the power you need while running at the rpm of max efficiency. Likely the motor will be a bigger motor than just a motor that can produce merely the power you need at it's Thevinan maximum.

Simply put, a bigger motor than the minimum size meeting the required output will likely will be more efficient doing the task. Sort of like saying more is better at efficiency when it comes to electric motor sizing.

Just opposite of the saying , "...less is more."??

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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 09 2021 6:40pm

I wanted to contribute to keep some content flowing about the cyclone. I don’t want any newbies to overlook this kit as an option.
This is my first attempt at an off road ride. I wanted a modest fatbike but most budget ones with straight tubing that looks too small do not appeal to me. If I was going to do a build thread I’d call it “cheap ass fat bike build” I knew I wanted a steel frame so I could weld in horizontal dropouts for chain tightening a single speed. Going in budget minded I’d rather go this route on a cheaper bike or frame then get one ready to go. To summarize a cheap Chinese fatbike $305 incl shipping or something like a surly ice cream truck $800 + + shipping, frame only. I went the cheaper route which gives you a usable chain, wheels, frame, and ok pedals. I sold the original crappy front fork on eBay for $20 and the guy that bought it issued a return because they were so crappy. My description was dead on accurate so things were in
my favor in the end. Still a pain. I reread the cyclone forum last week to figure out the gearing etc. The DingusMcGee and GMann bickering is a bit much in the beginning, good to see they came to peace. My design was to keep as much open see through space as possible in the frame area. I feel I have done this successfully. Inside the battery box is 3 lipos 22ah kepworth is the brand. Although a cheap looking label the company is large and makes many types of batteries. I’m loving the domino throttle on my other Ebike but sticking with cheap I went with what came with the kit. Couldn’t do it. The extra 5/8” longer that the domino throttle is means everything. Your hands can be at slight angles which can be more comfortable. The standard throttle has a 4” grip, the domino is 4 5/8”. Inch can’t cheap out everywhere. This is the 60A version.

Much better being able to add full size pictures now!
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A very common fatbike especially in India from my YouTube investigating
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The tack welds of the horizontal dropouts.
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The start of something interesting
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Nice upright position, need new seatpost I know.
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Close up of 3d printed battery box.
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Just don’t do it.
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True DingusMcGee style here.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 15 2021 6:19am

"True Dingus McGee style here -- Skaiwerd. Yes, I like it...

If one must preserve the Q-factor while using the Cyclone 3K as a middrive, then a solution is to move the motor forward beyond the crank arm reach. Stay tune -- welcome to the aluminum box beam and using the older Cyclone 3K motor plate assembly.

Of course this setup is dual drive and not parallel. If this terminology confuses the GrantMac types -- STOP reading, then get a cheese burger.
IMG_0987.jpg
The pedal powered red chain goes to the NaVinci N360 and the silver chain is motor powered
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the 3" alum box beam fits over the 68mm BB tight with a 0.05" shim ring.
IMG_0983.jpg
The box beam's lower side was carefully sawed to just slide over the down tube.
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The older Cyclone 3K motor frame had a form of adjustable width. This old frame was set for a 73mm BB shell.
IMG_0984.jpg
The motor hinges on the boxbeam allowing motor chain adjustment.
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There is tire clearance:
IMG_0985.jpg
The motor space is beyond the crank space.
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A view from the bottom.
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The tight to the slant tube motor position.
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All this work because the crank arm ends hits the motor shaft when using the 112mm BB axle -- Wonky
IMG_0978.jpg
If that shaft is in the way, push the motor forward.
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Q.E.D.

What's the addition in weight and how is the Qfactor changed?
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Apr 21 2021 4:50pm, edited 2 times in total.

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pwd   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Apr 16 2021 1:05pm

Good day folks, does anyone have experience with the BOOST function on the stock 40A controller? This is the controller I am referring to (YKZ7240JN -B): http://sickbikeparts.com/content/Manual ... ev%20A.pdf

I have turned BOOST on in the bluetooth app but I haven't noticed a difference. :?:
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 16 2021 2:41pm

pwd wrote:
Apr 16 2021 1:05pm
Good day folks, does anyone have experience with the BOOST function on the stock 40A controller? This is the controller I am referring to (YKZ7240JN -B): http://sickbikeparts.com/content/Manual ... ev%20A.pdf

I have turned BOOST on in the bluetooth app but I haven't noticed a difference. :?:
I got a yyk with some documentation straight from the factory a while ago. From what it says they originally wanted a temperature dependent overcurrent feature, but ended up just making boost mode = fast start 10. So basically useless, yea.

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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 18 2021 5:10pm

After two weekends of changing the settings in the app, and testing the bike, mostly fast start and soft start settings, I’ve come to one conclusion. That is both being off works the best for me. Any sort of soft start just put a delay or its own ramp ontop of what I was giving it from the throttle. Fast start I set from low to none and eventually went with none. 60a stock Bluetooth, domino throttle, 100k trimpot added to power input, to not get over voltage. Same thing I did with the other bike.
Attachments
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Mac guy so borrowed android tablet
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A quick trip to the Housatonic river.
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Looks much better w/o the kickstand. For riding not parking.
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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 20 2021 5:49am

Skaiwerd,

Please tell us more about you LiPo battery bargain. Where to get 'em, $$, and how do they hold up?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 20 2021 6:35am

I’m not so sure about a bargain. They were $175 each. Got a bunch of AliExpress items from the 11. 11 sale which wasn’t so much of a sale anyway as it seems these are the regular prices. This bike has the 3 22ah where my retro cruiser used 6 16ah lipos but the multistar. So far the performance is great with no issues, been charging at 20A
Attachments
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Tight fit
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Three please
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The details
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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 20 2021 4:08pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Apr 20 2021 6:35am
I’m not so sure about a bargain. They were $175 each. Got a bunch of AliExpress items from the 11. 11 sale which wasn’t so much of a sale anyway as it seems these are the regular prices. This bike has the 3 22ah where my retro cruiser used 6 16ah lipos but the multistar. So far the performance is great with no issues, been charging at 20A
It started as a cheap fatbike. They are common.
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markz   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Apr 20 2021 4:29pm

Cheaper new fat bikes can be found. These guys just buy cargo containers of cheap stuff and sell it in store.
$250 cdn - Cdn stores - http://unclewiener.com/product/new-devi ... bike-ns88/

$500cdn from department store - https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/search-r ... fat%20bike
$460cdn - Costco Northrock XC00 Frame - Its interesting to see the used fat bikes being sold for more. I bought this fat bike, used for $300cdn from a bicycle hoarder.

1spd $350usd, 3x8 $600usd - Bikes Direct - http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fat-bikes.htm
Used from Pinkbike - $500usd for a Redline fatty - https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2857873/

I just purchased a 604 Elements (non electric) 1x7 fat bike for $400cdn, local pawn shop had same fat bike (non electric), different color for $900 and has been up for sale for the last 1.5yrs. I just kept looking at local online classifieds. You'll always find a good deal sooner or later on whatever style of bicycle your looking for.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 20 2021 5:07pm

A good reference thanks! For those starting out it could be a way to go. You buy these bargain bikes for the frame and wheels only. Everything else must be replaced. I went with the freewheel not cassette type of wheel, which most of these are I think anyway. I figured replacing freewheels a
better option over fixing the cassette type of wheel/hub.
Bending rear axles now but rideable with chain retention. Working to convert rear loose bearings 3/8” axle to 12mm moto bolt and sealed bearings. I hope they fit.
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electric_nz   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by electric_nz » Apr 26 2021 7:29pm

Anyone had any luck with other controllers than the yuyanking one? Maybe the grinfineon or KT controllers might work?

Wanted to try with a nucular but they seem to be unavailable for the foreseeable future

https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... 0-l10.html

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Apr 27 2021 7:50am

I'll take the first, just so I can say I got my bike from uncle wiener
markz wrote:
Apr 20 2021 4:29pm
Cheaper new fat bikes can be found. These guys just buy cargo containers of cheap stuff and sell it in store.
$250 cdn - Cdn stores - http://unclewiener.com/product/new-devi ... bike-ns88/

$500cdn from department store - https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/search-r ... fat%20bike
$460cdn - Costco Northrock XC00 Frame - Its interesting to see the used fat bikes being sold for more. I bought this fat bike, used for $300cdn from a bicycle hoarder.

1spd $350usd, 3x8 $600usd - Bikes Direct - http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fat-bikes.htm
Used from Pinkbike - $500usd for a Redline fatty - https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2857873/

I just purchased a 604 Elements (non electric) 1x7 fat bike for $400cdn, local pawn shop had same fat bike (non electric), different color for $900 and has been up for sale for the last 1.5yrs. I just kept looking at local online classifieds. You'll always find a good deal sooner or later on whatever style of bicycle your looking for.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Apr 27 2021 1:27pm

Yeah its a funny name and yet its a very odd name.

I liked an old used car dealer that was named Farmer Jones Carz, a Calgary institution for decades, down in the now rich, now yuppified community of Inglewood east of the down town core. A kin do place that has $1M homes, frequented by the homeless and in a 100yr flood zone which we had in 2013.

I would like to see the owner of Uncle Wiener or at minimum read his name. I am sure he or she travels to China on a regular basis.
They have 6 stores, maybe you can buy online and they ship. I have just walked through their store a few times and test rode that fat bike, one size fits all, unfortunately. However, you'd be far better off waiting for a good deal in the online classifieds. I purchased a non-electrified 604 Elements fat bike for $400cdn, a local pawn shop has had another non-electrified Elements 604 up for sale for the past 3 years judging by an old pic I saw in an image search, I would have guessed 1 to 2 yrs since I've been seeing it on Kijiji (Canada's online classifieds, which ebay owns now) Why so long, $900cdn they want. The 604's do come up for sale, in non-electrified form more then you may think. The only other times I saw some up for sale was a pair, his and hers for an average price, and another time for a great deal like what I got mine for. I was to slow in snapping that one up. My current one, I snapped it up quick!
I do not know why they have their electrics removed. Maybe the batteries dies and they still want a fat bike so they get a rear wheel. Its a perfect candidate for a diy conversion. If I were to convert and have to buy a mid drive, I'd personally go with a BBSHD, but the Cyclone 3kw is a great motor. I got the 4kw coaxial version, whatever that means. I am sure its been posted what the difference is, between the 3kw and the 4kw. I thought maybe it was just the controller, but it could be the size of the motor or maybe the gearing.


http://unclewiener.com

2424.png
Manbeer wrote:
Apr 27 2021 7:50am
I'll take the first, just so I can say I got my bike from uncle wiener

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Apr 27 2021 8:48pm

bikeisland.com also has a nice frame and fork combo for 125 shipped which would be a good candidate for a budget build. unfortunately, finding 135/170mm wheels for a reasonable price seems hard at the moment so i held off on ordering...plus i can't tell anyone i got it from uncle weiner.

https://bikeisland.com/cgi-bin/BKTK_STO ... rodID=2961

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DtiK » May 02 2021 4:32pm

1. Is there anyone that has succesfully got Cyclone 3000w working with Grin Phaserunner in sensored mode? What did you do? I have read about doing "RC-filter" to hall sensors to fix their output? Someone enlighten me.


2. Alternatively, is it possible to get Cyclone 3000w to work smoothly from standing stop with sensorless mode?. I am unable to get good settings for that. I get phase overcurrent faults and I'm almost clueless which settings I should I raise and which decrease. One thing is sure that raising Current Regulator Bandwith causes RF interference in my Cycle Analyst speedometer. It reads like 200-300km/h when I try to accelerate, before limiter (99kmh or 25kmh depending on which preset I have) stops my acceleration.

My settings now:
Feedback bandwidth tuning
Current regulator bandwidth: 1050 rads
PLL Bandwidth: 875 rads
PLL Damping: 2,00
Sensorless starting parameters
Alignment Hold Time: 100ms
Autostart Injection Current: 50,1A
Autostart Spinup Time: 3000ms
Autostart Max RPM: 8 RPM

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 02 2021 5:34pm

DtiK wrote:
May 02 2021 4:32pm
1. Is there anyone that has succesfully got Cyclone 3000w working with Grin Phaserunner in sensored mode? What did you do? I have read about doing "RC-filter" to hall sensors to fix their output? Someone enlighten me.


2. Alternatively, is it possible to get Cyclone 3000w to work smoothly from standing stop with sensorless mode?. I am unable to get good settings for that. I get phase overcurrent faults and I'm almost clueless which settings I should I raise and which decrease. One thing is sure that raising Current Regulator Bandwith causes RF interference in my Cycle Analyst speedometer. It reads like 200-300km/h when I try to accelerate, before limiter (99kmh or 25kmh depending on which preset I have) stops my acceleration.

My settings now:
Feedback bandwidth tuning
Current regulator bandwidth: 1050 rads
PLL Bandwidth: 875 rads
PLL Damping: 2,00
Sensorless starting parameters
Alignment Hold Time: 100ms
Autostart Injection Current: 50,1A
Autostart Spinup Time: 3000ms
Autostart Max RPM: 8 RPM
I have cyclone coaxial and asi bac2000. No it doesn't work out of the box, same way it doesn't for kelly controllers either. WIth kelly, it apparently works if you use the halls on 12v instead of 5v (didn't try that with the asi), there was also some pullup resistor mod mentioned on this forum, I did the mod, no change. (phaserunner is made by asi)

I did figure out some killer sensorless settings, so you don't really notice it is in sensorless unless you are attempting to start from a huge incline hill.

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