new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[Skaiwerd]

Experimental based knowledge TRUMPS any intuition based cross talk of what the Cyclone 3K can run for high voltage.

3. I ran a Sabvotan controller at 90 amp and 116 volts to power a Cyclone 3K fat tire bike. No probem until I tried deep snow milling. I burned up both the motor and the controller in that 2 or 3 minute joy ride.

Yes I agree. Design all you want, things are alway different once you start connecting physical parts. Only those who do both know what I’m referring to.

Dingus, glad you are here to chime in as we know you’ve tried just about everything cyclone related. One question do you think more of a reduction on the fatbike/snow would have made things better? Not blow up? I’ve gone up to about 26:1 for a fat but only tested on dirt. To much reduction but could be ok for snow.

Currently have wheels coming from AliExpress, been two months, what a drag not riding.

Glad ES let’s us add pictures over 1mb! Thanks!

[john61ct]

That voltage range matches up exactly with the Nucular usage feedback,

de-rated 21S for those willing to push the limits

20S for those wanting to not worry about the issue at all.

Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

[DingusMcGee]

john61ct asks,

. Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

Dear John,

Likely anyone that can do the simplest of energy calculations can figure going from 18s to 21s is a 16.67% increase in watt hour capacity. If you do not squander this extra potential for a higher speed ride, the extra watt hours will get you some 16% more range. So yes there is a real-life advantage for the extra watt hours.

[DingusMcGee]

skaiwerd

. Dingus, glad you are here to chime in as we know you’ve tried just about everything cyclone related. One question do you think more of a reduction on the fatbike/snow would have made things better? Not blow up? I’ve gone up to about 26:1 for a fat but only tested on dirt. To much reduction but could be ok for snow.

Good to hear you are still building and testing. About lower gears for snow milling. Yes, back then I still used a derailleur and would have likely been moving just about as well in a lower gear with somewhat less over heating. Too much reduction could hinder snow riding progress as it seems some wheel spinning helps over going very slow.


I have only one of those 3K motor now in use for a CVT assisted townie bike. I have switched the other 3K motors for the 6k motor and one QS3000 which are all on edirtbikes.

[Skaiwerd]

DingusMcGee
So you’ve given up on pedals? The move to a converted dirt bikes may also come for me. New 125cc, inverted fork, tube frame bikes can be delivered for $1k. Might get $150 for the motor, exhaust etc. qs midmotor with controller maybe $700, 3 lipos 16-22ah $900. If it gets near or over $3k do you just go for a sur-Ron? That’s prob $5k delivered from Luna cycles in the USA. At some point the pedal bike is just to wimpy especially the fat bike wheels.

[john61ct]

john61ct asks,

. Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

Dear John,

Likely anyone that can do the simplest of energy calculations can figure going from 18s to 21s is a 16.67% increase in watt hour capacity. If you do not squander this extra potential for a higher speed ride, the extra watt hours will get you some 16% more range. So yes there is a real-life advantage for the extra watt hours.

I was only asking about voltage, holding Wh constant

Thought experiment if you like, just to clarify my understanding,

not assuming any particular cells, with any specific Ah capacity

[DingusMcGee]

Skaiwerd,

Pedals? Mere footpegs pedals on the edirtbikes. The coax 4K bike and the CVT bike still have full length functioning cranks and pedals.

When crossing boulder fields, Q-factor interference (meaning a low pedal bumping because the other side needs high clearance) can pitchpole the rider to the side opposite the the low pedal. Such radical interference can pitch the rider from the bike on a sidehill because your downhill foot has a longways down to reach ground. The necessary safety decision was to either shorten the crank arm or mount the Yamaha foot pegs on hand.

Dirt bike foot pegs need an oriented hinge so they can fold up and back. Short cranks are easier to make than the foot peg holders with the frame connections. Hence I settled for a 4" crank arm (no chain connections) and the bike still looks like a petal bike.

Home made 4" crank arms

IMG_1042.JPG (230.87 KiB) Viewed 663 times

At first the shorter spacing felt weird but it works much better than having long crankarm foot peg positions.

[DingusMcGee]

Skaiwerd,

A Motorcycle Conversions would be fun.

Several years ago I was offered a 125cc motorcycle free. The additional weight over a bike conversion was the stopgap factor. My 6k bikes weigh 80 lbs, the motorcycle conversion likely more than 130lbs and a pedalable SurRon 128lbs. The other objectionable factor is a longer wheel base which both these alternatives have would mean less maneuver ability.

My edirtbike riding consists in part some off trail riding on tree laden glacially cut sidehills where lightweight/maneuverability is an almost must have feature.

A QS3000 motor would be my motor choice for a 125cc conversion. There is a QS4000motor which has more power but not much heavier.

PS. I have a QS 2000 on hand for a replacement on one of the Cyclone 6k motored edirtbikes as I feel just a little more than 6k power would be the sweet spot on these edirtbikes for a person of my weight (150lbs). When I use the QS3000 dirtbiking I often use power mode 1 not power mode 3. A friend at 220 lbs uses power mode 3 when riding this QS3000 edirtbike. Its 0 - 60 mph performance in less than 4 sec means easy front tire air for less than heavy whiskey throttle action.

[Skaiwerd]

Any way the coaxial cyclone motor would work for a small dirt bike? There’s a #410 chain version that can come with an 80amp controller. I would think it’s left hand drive but I don’t know for sure. Unless you use bike wheels the normal pedal side has no where to go as you can’t put a cassette (or make it single speed) on the motorcycle wheel. Don’t want convoluted jack shaft to get pedals.
I’m still waiting for these alloy fat bike rims. My intention would be to utilize the splines on the disc brake side to engage a chainring and power my cheap ass fatbike on the left side, leaving pedal side alone and functional. If you look at the picture closely you can see them. I have limited use to a water jet at work.
Is there an advantage over a fat tire over a motorcycle tire? Can you run the psi low and get studs like a fat tire. Can you go on epic rides in deep fresh or hard packed snow with a motorcycle tire like with the fat bike tire? Sure making the motorcycle and it tires work with more power isn’t the answer I’m looking for.
I’ll be the guinipig for us all with the alloy fatbike rim from AliExpress, seller banned sales to the USA after my order has taken so long. But there’s others

[DingusMcGee]

Skaiwerd,

Motorcycle tire traction

One of my hub builds was a WalMart fat tire frame with a Muxus High Torque hub motor laced in a 19" motorcycle rim. The tire was the standard square block pattern seen on most dirt bikes and being DOT rated was heavy -- thick walled sides and bottom -- seemed very stiff. One morning I took it to the fat bikers snow packed hill trails to test the rig. Traction was not an issue using very little inflation pressure. FYI -- The Cyclone 3K beats this motor in about every aspect.

You can run low pressure in moto dirt tires. There are 2 'safe' ways... If rim damage is not a likely occurance, you will merely need a rim lock and 'maybe' not ever that if you are running tubeless. In the tube/tire setup without a rim lock the tire will slip on the rim dragging the tube(talc powder alone does not suffice) and tear at the tube valve stem without a rimlock. The other method is to go with the Pro Core system $$$ which essentially converts to a dual chamber tire tube/ tubeless traction tire. The very high pressure inner tire locks the bead of the outer tire to the rim and the protects against rim damage. You get more traction with low pressure and less body jarring.

The square block tread moto tire is not suited for studding as the rubber injection holes are not on the top of the blocks. A moto road tire/front tire could be studded effectively.

The ProCore kit for bikes will fit rims to 39 mm so no pro core for Fat tires. Fat tires are low pressure.

More on ProCore see https://www.pinkbike.com/news/schwalbe- ... -2015.html.

The $250 ProCor 2 tire conversion kit was more than I was willing to spend but i found the kit on sale for a mere $20.00. See the phase out sale?

https://bikecloset.com/product/schwalbe ... 4sQAvD_BwE

The dual pathway valve stem of ProCore can leak at the rim hole so you may need to put tube sealer (in addition to rim tape over the spoke holes) to seal what the now is the spoke nipple chamber.

ProCores require a lot of tinkering and serial step installation but sort of fun. I have them on one bike but really for the riding I do the rim lock with tube and tire suffices. Prefer tubeless? You can get tire bead sealer from NAPPA -- a big can of it $23 -- and make any tire tubeless and hold air.

[brazilianboy]

I wanted to contribute to keep some content flowing about the cyclone. I don’t want any newbies to overlook this kit as an option.
This is my first attempt at an off road ride. I wanted a modest fatbike but most budget ones with straight tubing that looks too small do not appeal to me. If I was going to do a build thread I’d call it “cheap ass fat bike build” I knew I wanted a steel frame so I could weld in horizontal dropouts for chain tightening a single speed. Going in budget minded I’d rather go this route on a cheaper bike or frame then get one ready to go. To summarize a cheap Chinese fatbike incl shipping or something like a surly ice cream truck + + shipping, frame only. I went the cheaper route which gives you a usable chain, wheels, frame, and ok pedals. I sold the original crappy front fork on eBay for and the guy that bought it issued a return because they were so crappy. My description was dead on accurate so things were in
my favor in the end. Still a pain. I reread the cyclone forum last week to figure out the gearing etc. The DingusMcGee and GMann bickering is a bit much in the beginning, good to see they came to peace. My design was to keep as much open see through space as possible in the frame area. I feel I have done this successfully. Inside the battery box is 3 lipos 22ah kepworth is the brand. Although a cheap looking label the company is large and makes many types of batteries. I’m loving the domino throttle on my other Ebike but sticking with cheap I went with what came with the kit. Couldn’t do it. The extra 5/8” longer that the domino throttle is means everything. Your hands can be at slight angles which can be more comfortable. The standard throttle has a 4” grip, the domino is 4 5/8”. Inch can’t cheap out everywhere. This is the 60A version.

Much better being able to add full size pictures now!

Can you please share the STL files?

[markz]

How wide are the spacers that come in your kit?

I am off about 14mm with no spacers, lost them, going to use washers.

4kw axial, 68mm bb shell width.

I am done, cant move any further until I get longer bolts to fit the spacers/washers
It took me 3hrs on the peasant limo with the common folk to buy allen key bolts (both flat and knob [as seen in pics]) to fit without brackets and without spacers. Might just rocket on over to HD for some longer hex and a non-binding non threading bolt to save on washers.

I had M6 all thread on my list that I never got today

Damn this iphone is sweet, so easy to d/l pics.
Read the comments of the pics.

Spacers from Luna video, on 68mm install

111111.png (269.79 KiB) Viewed 433 times

[DingusMcGee]

Marks,

Try McMaster Carr. Here is their link to spacers and standoffs:

https://www.mcmaster.com/spacers/

Here is the link to long up to 200 mm 6mm Allen head bolts

https://www.mcmaster.com/screws/socket- ... d-size~m6/

If things are a bit too long? Grind 'me to length.

I like those tangs you made to gain length.

[markz]

I ran over to HD and they didn't have any 6mm bolts long enough, longest was 55 so ran over to CT and they had up to 1.00 x 65 which I bought but its really 70mm thats needed. Installed nice, two bolt jobby for a spacer worked nice. I am off by a hair so I will add a washer.

I got it all mounted mounted this morning.
I got lucky, those brackets had to be reversed and holes opened up a tad, using the two closest holes I originally used for the mounting bracket, one is now for motor the other is for bracket and a long tab hanging off the end.

I moved the bracket bolts to the inside (closest to bb)

There was to much not lining up having it the way I had it at first/the other way (for wider bb) and would have to take 20 minutes to make new metal tabs as there was much more space to fill.

I have a 7-8spd Clarks chain that aint lining up, and I dont have or want to use a tensioner so I hope a single speed chain will do the trick to have the chain tight.

Well I either pedal my way to the bike store and grab an expensive single speed chain, hit up crappy tire in the opposite direction or sacrifice a $5 Clarks chain and hope it doesnt slip which I won't do because I know it will slip and chew up the motor gear.
$17 Generic Supercycle CT
$17 SRAM at MEC
$17 Local bike store SRAM
Well its downhill to the train, then 2 blocks to CT or 4 blocks to MEC and 8 blocks and a hill to get to local bike store.

Choices choices choices, so tuff.

The last thing is I wonder if it really makes a differece if I switch up the tooth count on the motor side and the crank motor side. 14T - 48 currently, I think they sell a 13 motor gear. I do want lots of torque though. Expensive to switch it up for me, $10 gears, $60 shipping.

[markz]

Nuts work fine for a spacer, I think I said bolts before.... I meant nuts when it comes to spacers I used.
Mine have a little wiggle but fine on the hex, low grade 8.8, 6mmx1.00pitchx65length with half threads.
Have to get matching allen black coated 70 length.

It's good to have a source for spacers if I want black spacers to match the black motor and black crank and dark bicycle frame. Hopefully McMaster Carr is shipping to Canada, years ago they didnt. I'm not big on aesthetic's, people are calling on me to buy new clothing as mine are baggy and I could really care less. Why would I buy new clothing when I am continuing to lose weight, another 45lbs to go, be spending double the money.

Yeah, thankfully those tangs helped out even when I turned it around the holes lined up.
I just need to cut off the excess.

Lots of cheap single speed chains from Chain Reaction Cycle.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/ ... t=pricelow
Some 1spd chains are listed as narrow (3/32), others wide (1/8)
https://www.mtbr.com/threads/1-8-chain- ... ad.497271/
Luna's gears probably 3/32, Eric's website dont say.
Doesnt look like it matters
https://www.mtbr.com/threads/1-8-chain- ... ad.497271/

It all went pretty smooth, 2 days of working on it with a few hrs of actually working on it and a few hrs of travel by stinky, dirty peasant limo aka the bus.

For 68mm bottom bracket. Bolt length without the head are as follows
6mm x 1.00 x 70mm are the bolts for the bent bracket with spacers on the DS.
6mm x 1.00 x 25mm are the smaller bolts for the motor back cover NDS.
6mm x 1.00 x 55mm are the non bracket DS motor gear side.
**I noticed the tapered bolt heads (Martini glass shape as the parts counter lady said) are measured differently, as the taper goes in a bit without using a washer. I see no intereference issues with normal box head so I dont know why Luna sends theirs with a tapered head in their Cyclone 3000W install video.

Try McMaster Carr. Here is their link to spacers and standoffs:
https://www.mcmaster.com/spacers/
Here is the link to long up to 200 mm 6mm Allen head bolts
https://www.mcmaster.com/screws/socket- ... d-size~m6/
If things are a bit too long? Grind 'me to length.
I like those tangs you made to gain length.

[Brandon122603]

I'm connecting the 80amp bluetooth controller for the 6kw motor and have no idea where to connect these few things:
the high brake, which comes off the throttle with one wire
the low brake which has 3 wires
the phase line meter
the soft\quick start(does it connect to itself?)
the speed limiting(cennect to itself?)
the manual cruise
and a random unmarked white wire

Where would I connect a 3 wire PAS...the reverse and anti theft i figure i wont use. I also cant connect to the app, the LangLing app closes as soon as i try to connect and the cyclone app wont connect wihout the other i assume as it wont recognise the controller at all.
i was able to get the motor to work without being connected to the app but would like to be able to adjust settings.

[markz]

Sorry I had to delete my ramblings.

I ordered two items that will be delivered tomorrow which is really today since I am editing the post at 4am.

A wide red plastic chain roller that is about 4x wider then my chain and a chain roller with spring and mount which is 2-2.2x larger then my 7-8 speed chain.

[electric_nz]

Anyone have a recommendation for a durable 8 speed cluster? The cheapest Shimano and SRAM ones don’t last long (unsurprisingly)

7 speed ones seem to be much more rugged somehow?

[Skaiwerd]

I’ve seen box as an option for new bike builds, not 8 speed but the name is out there it’s a new option to shimano or sram. I don’t know first hand the quality, but this distributor for the cyc set up “electrifybike” seems to hype them up well for Ebike use. Box two and three have replaceable gears it appears.

https://www.electrifybike.com/collectio ... ain-bundle

[Skaiwerd]

I’m not seeing the cyclone kits sold by Luna Cycle or Sick Bike Parts right now, the two USA suppliers. I hope this isn’t permanent, but it could be. I may be headed in a different direction than another cyclone unless it’s the coaxial that would come from Taiwan directly anyway. I’d probably head toward the cyc regular but wait for version 3. Or use a qs motor 1000 watt and Nuclear 12f and try adjustable regenerative breaking, maybe left hand drive, i already have the motor and controller.
The cast fatbike wheels finally came in the mail. When it takes four months you’ve gotten a refund so they were free in the end. Same thing happed with the bike. Cheap as I could find fatbike with a steel frame. $305 with shipping. Turned out to be a sketchy website, sold women's shoes mostly, read bad reviews, about shoe orders, all I could find but I thought I was scammed. Three months later the bike shows up. PayPal refunded me a month earlier. Hugh.
The fluted shape to the hub looks ideal for a chain ring adapter, used with spacers. The wheels are pretty neat and true enough and use sealed cartridge bearings! I’m working on swapping out the bearings from the typical 3/8” axel and replacing them to use a 12mm one! No more bent axels. Sadly the rim is only offered in freewheel not cassette versions. I go single speed mostly anyway and taking the motor power off the freewheel I should be ok.

[calab]

I am confused and trying to confirm the shaft on the cyclone 3000w mid drive motor for the gear that slide on and bolts tight all I found was the shaft is most likely 20mm shaft with a 6mm keyway. I found an adapter that I can use a freewheel gear on but I can't find any #25 gears I must be thinking of things wrongly.

I dont have the cyclone motor this is what I found which slides on to the motor, lock its bolts and twist on a single freewheel gear which is real useful it's title 20mm ID x .9" wide, 2 set screws, 6mm keyway, Freewheel Sprocket Adaptor https://www.staton-inc.com/store/index. ... ct&id=1927 it uses freewheel sprockets size 1.37 x 24 TPI OD right hand threads which I havent been able to find. Where do I find #25 freewheel gears to spin onto the freewheel sprocket adapter?
Been looking and looking on the Staton website but I must be missing it.
https://www.staton-inc.com/store/index. ... nt=45&pg=1

This looks promising but its only 16T https://www.electricscooterparts.com/sp ... wheel.html

Rear Wheel Freewheel Clutch (Right Side)
Electric bicycle freewheel clutch mechanism for right hand side chains. Freewheel engages in the right-hand clockwise direction. Compatible with freewheel to axle adapters old below. 3-1/16" OD x 1-5/16" ID. Works with 2-1/8" (54mm) ID chain sprockets with four bolt mounting pattern. This freewheel has 16 teeth and also works with standard single speed 1/2"x1/8" (#410) bicycle chain. Fits 1.375" OD bicycle threaded wheel hubs. 1-5/16" ID. 1.375" x 24 TPI right-hand clockwise threads. F4 sprocket mounting pattern.
Item # FWM-180

Staton here has lots of different toothed sprockets, but I cant find them on their website.
https://www.staton-inc.com/store/index. ... ct&id=1930
They are all 1/2 teeth, #25 is 1/4 or am I again missing the obvious?
https://www.staton-inc.com/store/index. ... ct&id=2114



I might be shit out of luck to switch the current wheel sprocket #25 55T 1-5/16 3 bolt BCD to something else, like using the stock Cyclone motor freewheel sprocket using bicycle chain or just drill the holes out on a bicycle sprocket to attach to the 200x50 (8x2") wheel. This is not a bicycle application I am doing, its a Razor E200.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks
Calab






I like your frame, the cast wheel is something to get used to.

I’m not seeing the cyclone kits sold by Luna Cycle or Sick Bike Parts right now, the two USA suppliers. I hope this isn’t permanent, but it could be. I may be headed in a different direction than another cyclone unless it’s the coaxial that would come from Taiwan directly anyway. I’d probably head toward the cyc regular but wait for version 3. Or use a qs motor 1000 watt and Nuclear 12f and try adjustable regenerative breaking, maybe left hand drive, i already have the motor and controller.
The cast fatbike wheels finally came in the mail. When it takes four months you’ve gotten a refund so they were free in the end. Same thing happed with the bike. Cheap as I could find fatbike with a steel frame. $305 with shipping. Turned out to be a sketchy website, sold women's shoes mostly, read bad reviews, about shoe orders, all I could find but I thought I was scammed. Three months later the bike shows up. PayPal refunded me a month earlier. Hugh.
The fluted shape to the hub looks ideal for a chain ring adapter, used with spacers. The wheels are pretty neat and true enough and use sealed cartridge bearings! I’m working on swapping out the bearings from the typical 3/8” axel and replacing them to use a 12mm one! No more bent axels. Sadly the rim is only offered in freewheel not cassette versions. I go single speed mostly anyway and taking the motor power off the freewheel I should be ok.

[Skaiwerd]

Calab

I’ve used electric scooter parts with good luck. For me they have the metric freewheels in 1mm pitch by 35mm that I’m starting to see a lot of. Also left hand drive freewheels are available.
https://electricscooterparts.com/freewheelclutches.html

Have you checked with Luna Cycle and Sick Bike Parts?

What should I expect from the cast wheels ride wise? These DIY contraptions really have nothing to compare them to, right? But we can make assumptions of the individual components I think.

[Skaiwerd]

As Chalo has previously stated I had problems with freewheels. I striped the aluminum (maybe?) rear wheel on the first ride. I had to improvise or I had an unusable wheel on a pedal bike. I still know the remaining weak points being the axel and the freewheel itself. Some good news the after fix ride in the dark was great and a little scary. This machine has been unrideable since August when it needed a new rear wheel which was stock pressed sheet metal looking hubs and loose ball bearings, you know low end. The other good news is that with the purchase of non standard size replacement sealed bearings the wheel can be switched over to 12mm for its axel. This may not happen to this bike but the next one for sure.

[Skaiwerd]

As Chalo has previously stated I had problems with freewheels. I stripped the aluminum (maybe?) rear wheel on the first ride. I had to improvise or I had an unusable wheel on a pedal bike. I still know the remaining weak points being the axel and the freewheel itself. Some good news the after fix ride in the dark was great and a little scary. This machine has been unrideable since August when it needed a new rear wheel which was stock pressed sheet metal looking hubs and loose ball bearings, you know low end. The other good news is that with the purchase of non standard size replacement sealed bearings the wheel can be switched over to 12mm for its axel. This may not happen to this bike but the next one for sure.

[jordison]

Anyone tried /has opinions on this new cyclone kit?
More reliable?