new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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pwd   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Aug 22 2021 11:02am

For the record; I ordered ISIS cranks/bottom bracket from Sick Bike Parts with no issues (2019) with my Cyclone 3kw kit (nice water resistance connection for the motor halls + phase). I paid a little extra but not full price for those upgraded parts. I'd also highly recommend the Heavy Duty freewheel (replaceable bearing) if you will be riding in wet/muddy conditions.
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Sep 30 2021 9:55am

Does anyone have alternate (less expensive) source for a 14T motor freewheel like this: https://sickbikeparts.com/electric-motor-freewheel-14t/ ?

My plan was to use a freewheel adapter to go from the 20mm motor shaft to a 1.375 " x 24 thread but it seems 14T freewheels only come in 1.29 " x 24 thread.
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Sep 30 2021 10:51am

pwd wrote:
Sep 30 2021 9:55am
Does anyone have alternate (less expensive) source for a 14T motor freewheel like this: https://sickbikeparts.com/electric-motor-freewheel-14t/ ?

My plan was to use a freewheel adapter to go from the 20mm motor shaft to a 1.375 " x 24 thread but it seems 14T freewheels only come in 1.29 " x 24 thread.
$25 is a pretty good price for a freewheel plus a specialty shaft adapter.

13, 14, and 15 tooth freewheels have M30x1.0 threads.

Locally, we use those for Cyclone motors on pedicabs. The Odyssey 13t kind holds up a lot better than the generic 14t units we get with the motors. But all of them self-disassemble if there's any tension on the drive chain when the freewheel is overrunning. A half-assed fix is to place a little tack weld to fix the bearing race in position.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Sep 30 2021 12:16pm

Chalo wrote:
Sep 30 2021 10:51am
pwd wrote:
Sep 30 2021 9:55am
Does anyone have alternate (less expensive) source for a 14T motor freewheel like this: https://sickbikeparts.com/electric-motor-freewheel-14t/ ?

My plan was to use a freewheel adapter to go from the 20mm motor shaft to a 1.375 " x 24 thread but it seems 14T freewheels only come in 1.29 " x 24 thread.
$25 is a pretty good price for a freewheel plus a specialty shaft adapter.

13, 14, and 15 tooth freewheels have M30x1.0 threads.

Locally, we use those for Cyclone motors on pedicabs. The Odyssey 13t kind holds up a lot better than the generic 14t units we get with the motors. But all of them self-disassemble if there's any tension on the drive chain when the freewheel is overrunning. A half-assed fix is to place a little tack weld to fix the bearing race in position.
Thank you for your input. So are you using the Odyssey 13T on the motor shaft with a freewheel shaft adapter? If so; what adapter are you using?
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Sep 30 2021 6:38pm

pwd wrote:
Sep 30 2021 12:16pm
So are you using the Odyssey 13T on the motor shaft with a freewheel shaft adapter? If so; what adapter are you using?
We mostly use the shaft adapters that came with the motors. I made a special tool that we can clamp in the vise to allow removal of the original freewheel. I've also made a few on the lathe when we were in a pinch.

Staton Inc. of Oklahoma offers one that you can buy.

https://www.staton-inc.com/store/index. ... ct&id=2292
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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pwd   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Oct 01 2021 6:53am

Excellent, thank you again Chalo! I was on that site before but only saw the adapters for 1.375 " thread.
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Oct 13 2021 8:13pm

Pardon my laziness in not sorting through this entire thread as its getting a bit long. Has anyone ran these at greater than 72v? Looking at the GNG version and was wondering if i could run say, a sabvoton 96120 @ 96v with it? im on a smaller wheel and want to pick up a bit of top end, would probably keep the battery amps down to around 40, but this way im not always down in the 11t chewing through gears. Plus, i will already have batteries for this but the 72v i would normally run would require another purchase. In this case, the setup would be 26s9p NCR18650GA.
Thanks in advance

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Oct 13 2021 9:11pm

My guess is no, since Lightning Rod did not do it with his modding for Big Block

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Oct 14 2021 7:53am

john61ct wrote:
Oct 13 2021 9:11pm
My guess is no, since Lightning Rod did not do it with his modding for Big Block
OK, figured if I keep the amps lower I may have better luck as I'm not really trying to go much above the 3000w mark But if the motors designs to operate between 48 and 72 it might be a little bit too much rpm for it And I can run into other issues rather than just the thermal aspect. I guess if I try, the worst case is I burn up the motor and replace the bare motor with something else Or I could just run different batteries...But in the greater scheme of things with these, Rather use the batteries i have and make the motor work if i can

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Oct 14 2021 8:07am

Well ultimately, your throttle control determines the voltage

if you're willing to risk burning the motor, add motor voltage & temp sensors to watch and

just take it slow?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Oct 14 2021 9:41am

Yeah and I'm still kind of groggy because kids kept waking me up so I must be out of it anyway. I just though about it. I'm not going for a super top speed build and the motor really wouldn't be spinning any faster than most guys doing 45+ on a 26er As I'm just trying to do 40 max for short bursts on a 20x4

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Oct 14 2021 10:06am

Then don't mess around for no reason.

Rule of thumb should be only go up to the voltage you need for your desired top speed.

Cheaper controllers, safer for circuits and humans, better efficiencies when average speeds are way below peak speeds needed.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 16 2021 7:25am

Experimental based knowledge TRUMPS any intuition based cross talk of what the Cyclone 3K can run for high voltage.

The following is what I know from having done such:

1. The controller sold with a purchase of the Cyclone 3K from SickBikeParts, Luna and Cyclone will not allow more than about 87 volts. I have spit a 6 cell LiPO to get two 3s batteries. Using one of these 3s packs with 3 6s LiPO batts I had a max of 21x 4.2 = 88.2 volts which is bit too much for the controller. But there are easy ways in the field or at home to get the 21 s pack working. Charging the batts to 4.15 volts yields a max of 87.15 which will work. Or run the 3 6s packs until their total voltage drops 88.2 - 87.15 = 1.05 volts leaving the 3 6s pack total at 18 x 4.2 - depletion = 75.6 - 1.05 = 74.55volts. The motor has no probem with more voltage up to 87v.

2. If you purchase the Cyclone 4K controller you can run about 115 volts at 60 mps? through it to the Cyclone 3K. No probem except overheating on long duration bouts or deep snow milling. Again voltage as high as 115v no problem.

3. I ran a Sabvotan controller at 90 amp and 116 volts to power a Cyclone 3K fat tire bike. No probem until I tried deep snow milling. I burned up both the motor and the controller in that 2 or 3 minute joy ride.

Basically it is high amps leading to overheating that will kill the controller/motor setup. With forced air cooling you can run more amps longer than simply external air flow cooling. And yes I have tried air cooling and the results were reported in this thread.

So Manbeer please try what you want. This thread is more about what might work than about what we "ought" not try.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Oct 16 2021 9:03am

DingusMcGee wrote:
Oct 16 2021 7:25am
Experimental based knowledge TRUMPS any intuition based cross talk of what the Cyclone 3K can run for high voltage.

3. I ran a Sabvotan controller at 90 amp and 116 volts to power a Cyclone 3K fat tire bike. No probem until I tried deep snow milling. I burned up both the motor and the controller in that 2 or 3 minute joy ride.
Yes I agree. Design all you want, things are alway different once you start connecting physical parts. Only those who do both know what I’m referring to.

Dingus, glad you are here to chime in as we know you’ve tried just about everything cyclone related. One question do you think more of a reduction on the fatbike/snow would have made things better? Not blow up? I’ve gone up to about 26:1 for a fat but only tested on dirt. To much reduction but could be ok for snow.

Currently have wheels coming from AliExpress, been two months, what a drag not riding.

Glad ES let’s us add pictures over 1mb! Thanks!
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Oct 16 2021 3:36pm

That voltage range matches up exactly with the Nucular usage feedback,

de-rated 21S for those willing to push the limits

20S for those wanting to not worry about the issue at all.

Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 16 2021 6:50pm

john61ct asks,
. Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

Dear John,

Likely anyone that can do the simplest of energy calculations can figure going from 18s to 21s is a 16.67% increase in watt hour capacity. If you do not squander this extra potential for a higher speed ride, the extra watt hours will get you some 16% more range. So yes there is a real-life advantage for the extra watt hours.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 16 2021 7:11pm

skaiwerd
. Dingus, glad you are here to chime in as we know you’ve tried just about everything cyclone related. One question do you think more of a reduction on the fatbike/snow would have made things better? Not blow up? I’ve gone up to about 26:1 for a fat but only tested on dirt. To much reduction but could be ok for snow.
Good to hear you are still building and testing. About lower gears for snow milling. Yes, back then I still used a derailleur and would have likely been moving just about as well in a lower gear with somewhat less over heating. Too much reduction could hinder snow riding progress as it seems some wheel spinning helps over going very slow.


I have only one of those 3K motor now in use for a CVT assisted townie bike. I have switched the other 3K motors for the 6k motor and one QS3000 which are all on edirtbikes.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Oct 16 2021 7:59pm

DingusMcGee
So you’ve given up on pedals? The move to a converted dirt bikes may also come for me. New 125cc, inverted fork, tube frame bikes can be delivered for $1k. Might get $150 for the motor, exhaust etc. qs midmotor with controller maybe $700, 3 lipos 16-22ah $900. If it gets near or over $3k do you just go for a sur-Ron? That’s prob $5k delivered from Luna cycles in the USA. At some point the pedal bike is just to wimpy especially the fat bike wheels.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Oct 16 2021 8:07pm

DingusMcGee wrote:john61ct asks,
. Does anyone think the difference gives any real-life advantage other than say 2-3 mph higher top speed?

Dear John,

Likely anyone that can do the simplest of energy calculations can figure going from 18s to 21s is a 16.67% increase in watt hour capacity. If you do not squander this extra potential for a higher speed ride, the extra watt hours will get you some 16% more range. So yes there is a real-life advantage for the extra watt hours.
I was only asking about voltage, holding Wh constant

Thought experiment if you like, just to clarify my understanding,

not assuming any particular cells, with any specific Ah capacity


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 17 2021 5:36am

Skaiwerd,

Pedals? Mere footpegs pedals on the edirtbikes. The coax 4K bike and the CVT bike still have full length functioning cranks and pedals.

When crossing boulder fields, Q-factor interference (meaning a low pedal bumping because the other side needs high clearance) can pitchpole the rider to the side opposite the the low pedal. Such radical interference can pitch the rider from the bike on a sidehill because your downhill foot has a longways down to reach ground. The necessary safety decision was to either shorten the crank arm or mount the Yamaha foot pegs on hand.

Dirt bike foot pegs need an oriented hinge so they can fold up and back. Short cranks are easier to make than the foot peg holders with the frame connections. Hence I settled for a 4" crank arm (no chain connections) and the bike still looks like a petal bike.
IMG_1042.JPG
Home made 4" crank arms
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At first the shorter spacing felt weird but it works much better than having long crankarm foot peg positions.
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Oct 17 2021 6:03am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 17 2021 6:01am

Skaiwerd,

A Motorcycle Conversions would be fun.

Several years ago I was offered a 125cc motorcycle free. The additional weight over a bike conversion was the stopgap factor. My 6k bikes weigh 80 lbs, the motorcycle conversion likely more than 130lbs and a pedalable SurRon 128lbs. The other objectionable factor is a longer wheel base which both these alternatives have would mean less maneuver ability.

My edirtbike riding consists in part some off trail riding on tree laden glacially cut sidehills where lightweight/maneuverability is an almost must have feature.

A QS3000 motor would be my motor choice for a 125cc conversion. There is a QS4000motor which has more power but not much heavier.

PS. I have a QS 2000 on hand for a replacement on one of the Cyclone 6k motored edirtbikes as I feel just a little more than 6k power would be the sweet spot on these edirtbikes for a person of my weight (150lbs). When I use the QS3000 dirtbiking I often use power mode 1 not power mode 3. A friend at 220 lbs uses power mode 3 when riding this QS3000 edirtbike. Its 0 - 60 mph performance in less than 4 sec means easy front tire air for less than heavy whiskey throttle action.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Oct 17 2021 7:29am

Any way the coaxial cyclone motor would work for a small dirt bike? There’s a #410 chain version that can come with an 80amp controller. I would think it’s left hand drive but I don’t know for sure. Unless you use bike wheels the normal pedal side has no where to go as you can’t put a cassette (or make it single speed) on the motorcycle wheel. Don’t want convoluted jack shaft to get pedals.
I’m still waiting for these alloy fat bike rims. My intention would be to utilize the splines on the disc brake side to engage a chainring and power my cheap ass fatbike on the left side, leaving pedal side alone and functional. If you look at the picture closely you can see them. I have limited use to a water jet at work.
Is there an advantage over a fat tire over a motorcycle tire? Can you run the psi low and get studs like a fat tire. Can you go on epic rides in deep fresh or hard packed snow with a motorcycle tire like with the fat bike tire? Sure making the motorcycle and it tires work with more power isn’t the answer I’m looking for.
I’ll be the guinipig for us all with the alloy fatbike rim from AliExpress, seller banned sales to the USA after my order has taken so long. But there’s others
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Oct 19 2021 6:19am

Skaiwerd,

Motorcycle tire traction

One of my hub builds was a WalMart fat tire frame with a Muxus High Torque hub motor laced in a 19" motorcycle rim. The tire was the standard square block pattern seen on most dirt bikes and being DOT rated was heavy -- thick walled sides and bottom -- seemed very stiff. One morning I took it to the fat bikers snow packed hill trails to test the rig. Traction was not an issue using very little inflation pressure. FYI -- The Cyclone 3K beats this motor in about every aspect.

You can run low pressure in moto dirt tires. There are 2 'safe' ways... If rim damage is not a likely occurance, you will merely need a rim lock and 'maybe' not ever that if you are running tubeless. In the tube/tire setup without a rim lock the tire will slip on the rim dragging the tube(talc powder alone does not suffice) and tear at the tube valve stem without a rimlock. The other method is to go with the Pro Core system $$$ which essentially converts to a dual chamber tire tube/ tubeless traction tire. The very high pressure inner tire locks the bead of the outer tire to the rim and the protects against rim damage. You get more traction with low pressure and less body jarring.

The square block tread moto tire is not suited for studding as the rubber injection holes are not on the top of the blocks. A moto road tire/front tire could be studded effectively.

The ProCore kit for bikes will fit rims to 39 mm so no pro core for Fat tires. Fat tires are low pressure.

More on ProCore see https://www.pinkbike.com/news/schwalbe- ... -2015.html.

The $250 ProCor 2 tire conversion kit was more than I was willing to spend but i found the kit on sale for a mere $20.00. See the phase out sale?

https://bikecloset.com/product/schwalbe ... 4sQAvD_BwE

The dual pathway valve stem of ProCore can leak at the rim hole so you may need to put tube sealer (in addition to rim tape over the spoke holes) to seal what the now is the spoke nipple chamber.

ProCores require a lot of tinkering and serial step installation but sort of fun. I have them on one bike but really for the riding I do the rim lock with tube and tire suffices. Prefer tubeless? You can get tire bead sealer from NAPPA -- a big can of it $23 -- and make any tire tubeless and hold air.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by brazilianboy » Oct 23 2021 5:54pm

Skaiwerd wrote:
Apr 09 2021 6:40pm
I wanted to contribute to keep some content flowing about the cyclone. I don’t want any newbies to overlook this kit as an option.
This is my first attempt at an off road ride. I wanted a modest fatbike but most budget ones with straight tubing that looks too small do not appeal to me. If I was going to do a build thread I’d call it “cheap ass fat bike build” I knew I wanted a steel frame so I could weld in horizontal dropouts for chain tightening a single speed. Going in budget minded I’d rather go this route on a cheaper bike or frame then get one ready to go. To summarize a cheap Chinese fatbike incl shipping or something like a surly ice cream truck + + shipping, frame only. I went the cheaper route which gives you a usable chain, wheels, frame, and ok pedals. I sold the original crappy front fork on eBay for and the guy that bought it issued a return because they were so crappy. My description was dead on accurate so things were in
my favor in the end. Still a pain. I reread the cyclone forum last week to figure out the gearing etc. The DingusMcGee and GMann bickering is a bit much in the beginning, good to see they came to peace. My design was to keep as much open see through space as possible in the frame area. I feel I have done this successfully. Inside the battery box is 3 lipos 22ah kepworth is the brand. Although a cheap looking label the company is large and makes many types of batteries. I’m loving the domino throttle on my other Ebike but sticking with cheap I went with what came with the kit. Couldn’t do it. The extra 5/8” longer that the domino throttle is means everything. Your hands can be at slight angles which can be more comfortable. The standard throttle has a 4” grip, the domino is 4 5/8”. Inch can’t cheap out everywhere. This is the 60A version.

Much better being able to add full size pictures now!
Can you please share the STL files?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by markz » Nov 04 2021 6:10pm

How wide are the spacers that come in your kit?

I am off about 14mm with no spacers, lost them, going to use washers.

4kw axial, 68mm bb shell width.

I am done, cant move any further until I get longer bolts to fit the spacers/washers
It took me 3hrs on the peasant limo with the common folk to buy allen key bolts (both flat and knob [as seen in pics]) to fit without brackets and without spacers. Might just rocket on over to HD for some longer hex and a non-binding non threading bolt to save on washers.

I had M6 all thread on my list that I never got today :(

Damn this iphone is sweet, so easy to d/l pics.
Read the comments of the pics.

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Spacers from Luna video, on 68mm install
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crank arm ds hits motor gear, As you can see no spacers and I used the outer most, most away from bb holes. Should have used the inner most for 68mm.
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14mm off, here you can see the interference of the motor flanges clearly. I am getting pysch'ed up to ride again!
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Non drive side, plenty of room
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Crank arm hits the motor gear.
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You gotta do what you gotta do in order to ride. A few factors here, I used the outter most holes on the bracket for the drive side bracket (straight bracket), and I tried to bend it to fit an old fat bike that never got anywhere. Those spacers bring the motor back but also put the bracket above a motor cast strengthening bracket.
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