new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 26 2020 7:51pm

matt912836,
. Can anyone comment on the cyclones ability to pair with a sabvoton controller?
I have had 2 Subvotan controllers. I burned up my first Cyclone 3K powering it with a Subvotan in deep snow, too high of a gear and no high temp reset. That controller graciously burned up at the same time but at some 80 - 90 amps recorded on the CycleAnalyst. I forget the other one's history but they were quite nice programming and were great performance wise. However they had no documentation and LA Vendor of these was of ZERO help with their setups.

Bear in mind that both of them were quite short lived. Maybe you can purchase an extended warranty for them if you buy over eBay or Amazon?

I can not help with adjustments for high RPM. But back at the time of Cy3k motor burn up I did post something on this thread about the Subvotan
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Dec 26 2020 9:19pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Dec 26 2020 8:07pm

Red Big Hit edirtbike 6k performance report:

This gear ratio of 10.67 adjusted for 24" rear tire (see up a few posts) can do burnouts on substrates like dry dirt, mud, snow and ice but not on well locked partially exposed gravel embedded in dry highway asphalt on the flat We're talking speed range high #3 and fast start set = 10, slow start set "off".

Top speed = 38 mph.

Somewhere today the cycle Analysts reported max amps 78+. Controller is rated 80 amps.

And FYI Grantmac, I have no loose problemsome chain slap (chain growth)with all Range and speeds of suspension compression using that underside idler.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Dec 26 2020 10:30pm

Tommm wrote:
Dec 20 2020 11:13am
matt912836 wrote:
Dec 20 2020 7:47am
it turns out I was after the 6k motor after all and not the 4k motor. Paco offered me a motor core alone to swap onto my 4k gearbox at a discount but I opted to buy a full motor instead, so he sold me one with free overnight shipping straight from china.
Can you shoot some comparison pics?
Here is the 6k mounted, compared with the 4k being held by hand. they are even beginning at the right side cover. much more rotor area and much more solid aluminum side cover on the 6k. air cooling this thing will really make it shine and push it to its maximum potential

Image
DingusMcGee wrote:
Dec 26 2020 7:51pm
I have had 2 Subvotan controllers. I burned up my first Cyclone 3K powering it with a Subvotan in deep snow, too high of a gear and no high temp reset. That controller graciously burned up at the same time but at some 80 - 90 amps recorded on the CycleAnalyst. I forget the other one's history but they were quite nice programming and were great performance wise. However they had no documentation and LA Vendor of these was of ZERO help with their setups.

Bear in mind that both of them were quite short lived. Maybe you can purchase an extended warranty for them if you buy over eBay or Amazon?

I can not help with adjustments for high RPM. But back at the time of Cy3k motor burn up I did post something on this thread about the Subvotan
so im going to take that as the temperature sensor on the hall lines as a "fuse" to stop the motor when it reaches a certain temperature isnt very reliable? :oops:

sounds like putting in an actual temp sensor will be necessary when i open it up to make vents holes for the air cooling, and the sabvoton has a setting for reading that too and dialing back power

and so i think ive figured out the whole cyclone sabvoton thing out!
and im sure its all due to a simple mistranslation

as i contacted paco to find out the pole pairs of the motor, he replied "8"

as the sabvoton can only do 30,000 eRPM, and max motor rpm is determined by eRPM/pole pairs, 30,000/8 = 3750rpm

well i hooked up my 96v sabv to the 6k cyclone and WOW it works flawlessly! i got a top speed of 46mph on the road, which is super fast, considering my gear ratio is made for torque. with my gear ratio calculator 46mph would only be possible if i was getting 980 rpms at the output gear, with a 6:1 ratio thats 5800+ internal rpms!!

so i opened up my retired 3k motor just to double check things, and turns out its only 8 magnets total, meaning 4 pole pairs and not 8! im going to assume the 6k is the same exact things, just longer magnets to fill the wider stator

so that should actually be capapble of 30,000eRPM / 4 pole pairs = 7500 max motor RPM!

time to tune these phase amps and flux weakening :D

slide regen also works amazing since both front and rear sprockets are fixed

BUT ONE PRECAUTION FOR ANYONE USING A SABVOTON

there seems to be some kind of weird bug where if you wire up the motor so it spins smooth but backwards, and use the "motor direction" switch to spin it forward, then enable slide recharge, for some reason my motor would get stuck on full throttle at the point where the slide recharge was suppose to engage! basically you could hit the throttle once and the bike would get stuck on full power until shutting it off! very good thing i always tested with either the wheel in the air or the chain off!!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 08 2021 10:56pm

Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.
IMG_0432.JPG
IMG_0432.JPG (439.55 KiB) Viewed 1623 times
3 days later:
IMG_0674.JPG
IMG_0674.JPG (759.94 KiB) Viewed 1623 times
IMG_0675.jpg
IMG_0675.jpg (299.14 KiB) Viewed 1623 times
The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jan 09 2021 5:23pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 08 2021 10:56pm
Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.

IMG_0432.JPG

3 days later:

IMG_0674.JPG

IMG_0675.jpg

The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.
What sprocket are you using on the motor and the crank?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 09 2021 8:21pm

Hi Tommm,

The QS 3000 motor which came with a #40 chain cog of 14T width 5/16" has its chain going to a homemade 44T 9/32" wide sprocket. This "homemade" sprocket is 3 Cyclone 3/32 width 44T sprockets bolted together and I am running a #40 KTM continuous chain -- no master links as the motor position can translate forward for taking up chain stretch.

A 16T DICTA 3/16" = #415 chain free wheel cog is coupled to the White freehub where the 44T sprocket bolts. Both the DICTA and the white Ind freehub have Square Taper bearings inserted into them and roll freely on the 0.6250" diameter Square taper shaft. So using these bearing positions there is no eccentric single bearing loading. The petal axle spins freely in either direction of rotation.

The 26" rear wheel driven ebike gets a gear ratio of 44/14 x 48/16 = 9.4286. I haven't taken it to the edirtbike hills yet -- weather. But the low RPM control is very smooth. So far I am using the default controller settings as I have an RS-232 data cable on eBay order.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by matt912836 » Jan 10 2021 8:35pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Jan 08 2021 10:56pm
Tommm,

Here is a comparison between the Cyclone 3K motor and the 3K QS motor.

IMG_0432.JPG

3 days later:

IMG_0674.JPG

IMG_0675.jpg

The QS 3K motor is a bit faster than the Cy 3K.
I like how you mounted the QS just like the cyclone. perfect application for this motor too, since it needs a reduction, which your doing at the cranks like the cyclone normally would. the cyclones built in gearbox combined with a crank reduction was always a bad idea, all it did was make it harder on your drive train at high power levels. the qs should be a lot easier on your chain and cranks since its doing high rpms (4-6000) directly at the shaft, putting A LOT less torque strain on the drivetrain.

Although "a bit faster" means your not taking advantage of that motor! this motor is MANY times more powerful than the 3k cyclone could ever be! not only is it bigger than the 3k overall, but its entirely all copper and magnets! unlike the cyclone which more than a quarter of the motor is the gear reduction. even then, with the larger magnets and higher copper content, that motor should be strong enough where you could gear it for a higher top speed, say in the 40's, and still get the torque your getting now by adding more power through the controller. should widen your power band a bit too, your probably losing a lot of potential torque between 25-32mph by having it geared soooo low. this is a 138 correct? because that same motor is used in full sized motorcycle frame conversions, so theres no reason it shouldnt be able to make your bike absolutely insane!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jan 10 2021 8:41pm

Yea, the emoto people use the qs 3kw motor on 20-30kw dirt bike conversions. Even the qs mid drive 1kw is good for more power than a cyclone 3k.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Jan 11 2021 9:14pm

Matt912836,

You say,"...just like the Cyclone. But with some major differences in the motor frame.

Tommm,

Thanks for supplying some details about QS motor ratings.


And Grantmac too, as this thread is for Cyclone,I will start a new thread on the QS 138 motor installation on bikes.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by electric_nz » Mar 13 2021 4:38pm

Looking at the cyclone 6k & gearbox for a single reduction left side drive cargo bike application. Top speed only needs to be 50kph but needs torque for hills & load etc.

Questions-

Does it have noisy steel gears in the gearbox or nylon like the 3k?

Does it have same bolt pattern/ diameter as the 3k?

Can a standard 14 tooth freewheel handle the torque?

Any other issues with the 6k in general?

Cheers!

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Mar 14 2021 6:57am

electric_nz wrote:
Mar 13 2021 4:38pm
Looking at the cyclone 6k & gearbox for a single reduction left side drive cargo bike application. Top speed only needs to be 50kph but needs torque for hills & load etc.

Questions-

Does it have noisy steel gears in the gearbox or nylon like the 3k?

Does it have same bolt pattern/ diameter as the 3k?

Can a standard 14 tooth freewheel handle the torque?

Any other issues with the 6k in general?

Cheers!
Old name 4kw
https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/15
Old name 3kw
https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/12


The motor you call 6kw is the old 4kw motor (still says rated 4kw). It comes with the proper steel gears (not the weak nylon ones).

It is quite wide, not really suitable for an ebike application, more suited for a trike or people/cargo carrier bike.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 12:44pm

"...quite wide...?" I don't get it Tommm. He says he wants cargo bike which could be an ebike with a not so low Q-factor. Is a small increase in motor width much of an issue when pulling cargo?


electric_nz,


The motor frame side plates are the same as the 3kw motor side plates but the axle is longer.

The"standard 14T motor freewheel" --generic as comes with the 3K & 6K kits does not usually last very long. A 16T White Industry freewheel will likely last longer than the motor.


Other problems:

The frame is barely adequate and may need some side pulling mechanism as the right crank will with lateral motor frame drift start contacting the motor pulley. I stopped this drift motion with a long gear clamp.
IMG_0922.jpg
Gear clamp placed diagonal pulls motor pulley/shaft inward.
IMG_0922.jpg (366.3 KiB) Viewed 1121 times

The 3 phase wire that meet at and come from the motor plug are quit close together and once when milling through deep snow all 3 phase wires got hot, melted the scarce amount of solder and due to their sheath stiffness self ejected from the plug.

You ask, "other issues"? Maybe $$. Can you make a motor frame? Look into a QS 1000 or QS 2000 motor and controller. But installing the Cyclone 6K kit is mostly a plug and play situation.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Mar 14 2021 2:22pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
Mar 14 2021 12:44pm
"...quite wide...?" I don't get it Tommm. He says he wants cargo bike which could be an ebike with a not so low Q-factor. Is a small increase in motor width much of an issue when pulling cargo?

You ask, "other issues"? Maybe $$. Can you make a motor frame? Look into a QS 1000 or QS 2000 motor and controller. But installing the Cyclone 6K kit is mostly a plug and play situation.
I didn't read the cargo bike part, I wouldn't get the 6k motor unless I was doing over 2000w and over 4000w peak... not sure if a cargo bike needs that in his case. You can get plenty torque if you gear it to 42kph max speed and up to 50kph field weakening. At that setting without a load going up a hill he should be able to do a wheelie and flip over before he runs out of power. I would however get the steel cogs for an application like that, the only benefit would be copper mass, which depends on what climate he rides in. If it's a warm country and he can accommodate the motor in the frame sure go for it.

The QS motors even the 1kw are a step up again in potential. I really don't think they are meant for bikes, maybe EEB style ones with moto wheels and a 4kwh battery and all.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 3:09pm

So I know kW ratings mean almost nothing for motors

but saying the "6kW" version of the Cyclone

is less powerful than the QS at "1kW" rating

REALLY?

With a cargo bike intended to pull 500lbs up hills, I really doubt motor width would ever be an issue?

Let's please stop using kW ratings, and use model numbers, as specifically as possible

For QS, I would think 138 or 205 even 273 would be called for.

If usual actual load is 450lb then build to handle 600lb, and bigger hills, hotter ambients than you think necessary.

Performance without any cargo (other than the huge battery required) really is not relevant.


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 6:11pm

Design Criteria

For the cargo bike, we ask at what load at what speed and how much grade (and how long), plus as we get to those high energy hauls the addition of 300 watts of human power becomes, may I say, insignificant. What we glean from this data is power needed which is what the batteries can produce, the controller can distribute and the motor can handle. So in some fashion we need the Kw's that the motor can produce and for how long.

John61ct, when I look at model numbers they give me KW ratings, which you say mean almost nothing. How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?

So far, Electric_nz has not specified much criteria that would aid in motor sizing but he did specify a motor model that has in it's name a version of it's power rating. He did ask about some qualities and experience with the Cyclone 6K, which the motor decal says 2- 6Kw .
IMG_0923.jpg
Cyclone 6K? Motor decal
IMG_0923.jpg (283.17 KiB) Viewed 1634 times
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Mar 14 2021 6:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by electric_nz » Mar 14 2021 6:17pm

Thanks for the info. I assume the steel gears are quite noisy?

The idea is to have a single reduction chain drive only- the large rear sprockets required to have a single stage QS motor will possibly not work in this application, although maybe a belt drive or kart chain could be an option.

Load is approx 150kg including rider so not too huge, daily climb of 250m over 4km plus another 10km flat ground. Ideal speed 40kph.

20 inch wheels; looking at putting the rear sprocket on the brake disk mounts.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 6:46pm


DingusMcGee wrote: How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?
There is none, only objective testing for a given use case, fed by a big enough battery and serviced by a suitable controller.

https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 6:57pm

electric_nz,

Here is some data that with some conversion may help you calculate minimum motor Kw output needed for the hill haul and speed.

On the flat, no wind, one of my hub motors used about 400watts at 20mph and 960 watts at 30 mph.. Mid drives seem to consume a little more power than hubs(so add 10%). The cargo bike will likely have more wind resistance than just a hub bike(so add 10%). This data is likely to be somewhat invariant of rider weight since conditions were on the flat.

You will pay 100% energy /power for all weight on the hill haul plus motor & drivetrain inefficiencies of production. Add this quantity to the flat rate.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 7:28pm

John61ct

How does one glean that meaningful to design KW rating of a motor?

There is none, only objective testing for a given use case, fed by a big enough battery and serviced by a suitable controller.
John, You have missed an important detail about motor testing.

At what temperature?

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » Mar 14 2021 7:35pm

Yes exactly, that is very often the most important limiting factor

both for the controller and the motor.

Ambient can make a big difference

but also placement in the airflow, ability to use stator fluid etc


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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Mar 14 2021 8:03pm

electric_nz,

From Thevinan's Equivalent Circuits for motors we know these BLDC motors produce maximum power at 50% full RPM for a fixed voltage and they are 50% efficient at this rpm spot.

One Catch: At full power they produce an equal amount of heat which in the heat of summer may make the motor quite hot.

If you seek higher efficiency you will have to run the motor above 50% max RPM. More like 87% ? full RPM to get max efficiency.

Design from the power/rpm curve of the motor for the rpm where max efficiency occurs. You are now looking for a motor that produces the power you need while running at the rpm of max efficiency. Likely the motor will be a bigger motor than just a motor that can produce merely the power you need at it's Thevinan maximum.

Simply put, a bigger motor than the minimum size meeting the required output will likely will be more efficient doing the task. Sort of like saying more is better at efficiency when it comes to electric motor sizing.

Just opposite of the saying , "...less is more."??

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Apr 09 2021 6:40pm

I wanted to contribute to keep some content flowing about the cyclone. I don’t want any newbies to overlook this kit as an option.
This is my first attempt at an off road ride. I wanted a modest fatbike but most budget ones with straight tubing that looks too small do not appeal to me. If I was going to do a build thread I’d call it “cheap ass fat bike build” I knew I wanted a steel frame so I could weld in horizontal dropouts for chain tightening a single speed. Going in budget minded I’d rather go this route on a cheaper bike or frame then get one ready to go. To summarize a cheap Chinese fatbike $305 incl shipping or something like a surly ice cream truck $800 + + shipping, frame only. I went the cheaper route which gives you a usable chain, wheels, frame, and ok pedals. I sold the original crappy front fork on eBay for $20 and the guy that bought it issued a return because they were so crappy. My description was dead on accurate so things were in
my favor in the end. Still a pain. I reread the cyclone forum last week to figure out the gearing etc. The DingusMcGee and GMann bickering is a bit much in the beginning, good to see they came to peace. My design was to keep as much open see through space as possible in the frame area. I feel I have done this successfully. Inside the battery box is 3 lipos 22ah kepworth is the brand. Although a cheap looking label the company is large and makes many types of batteries. I’m loving the domino throttle on my other Ebike but sticking with cheap I went with what came with the kit. Couldn’t do it. The extra 5/8” longer that the domino throttle is means everything. Your hands can be at slight angles which can be more comfortable. The standard throttle has a 4” grip, the domino is 4 5/8”. Inch can’t cheap out everywhere. This is the 60A version.

Much better being able to add full size pictures now!
Attachments
A73FA5D4-3541-4686-9F56-D22475DC7D9A.jpeg
A very common fatbike especially in India from my YouTube investigating
A73FA5D4-3541-4686-9F56-D22475DC7D9A.jpeg (592.94 KiB) Viewed 1508 times
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The tack welds of the horizontal dropouts.
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The start of something interesting
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Nice upright position, need new seatpost I know.
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Close up of 3d printed battery box.
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Just don’t do it.
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True DingusMcGee style here.
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Apr 15 2021 6:19am

"True Dingus McGee style here -- Skaiwerd. Yes, I like it...

If one must preserve the Q-factor while using the Cyclone 3K as a middrive, then a solution is to move the motor forward beyond the crank arm reach. Stay tune -- welcome to the aluminum box beam and using the older Cyclone 3K motor plate assembly.

Of course this setup is dual drive and not parallel. If this terminology confuses the GrantMac types -- STOP reading, then get a cheese burger.
IMG_0987.jpg
The pedal powered red chain goes to the NaVinci N360 and the silver chain is motor powered
IMG_0987.jpg (498.8 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
the 3" alum box beam fits over the 68mm BB tight with a 0.05" shim ring.
IMG_0983.jpg
The box beam's lower side was carefully sawed to just slide over the down tube.
IMG_0983.jpg (381.34 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
The older Cyclone 3K motor frame had a form of adjustable width. This old frame was set for a 73mm BB shell.
IMG_0984.jpg
The motor hinges on the boxbeam allowing motor chain adjustment.
IMG_0984.jpg (402.76 KiB) Viewed 1447 times


There is tire clearance:
IMG_0985.jpg
The motor space is beyond the crank space.
IMG_0985.jpg (412.53 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
IMG_0986.jpg
A view from the bottom.
IMG_0986.jpg (400.8 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
IMG_0989.jpg
The tight to the slant tube motor position.
IMG_0989.jpg (327.5 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
All this work because the crank arm ends hits the motor shaft when using the 112mm BB axle -- Wonky
IMG_0978.jpg
If that shaft is in the way, push the motor forward.
IMG_0978.jpg (746.7 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
Q.E.D.

What's the addition in weight and how is the Qfactor changed?
Last edited by DingusMcGee on Apr 21 2021 4:50pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Apr 16 2021 1:05pm

Good day folks, does anyone have experience with the BOOST function on the stock 40A controller? This is the controller I am referring to (YKZ7240JN -B): http://sickbikeparts.com/content/Manual ... ev%20A.pdf

I have turned BOOST on in the bluetooth app but I haven't noticed a difference. :?:
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Apr 16 2021 2:41pm

pwd wrote:
Apr 16 2021 1:05pm
Good day folks, does anyone have experience with the BOOST function on the stock 40A controller? This is the controller I am referring to (YKZ7240JN -B): http://sickbikeparts.com/content/Manual ... ev%20A.pdf

I have turned BOOST on in the bluetooth app but I haven't noticed a difference. :?:
I got a yyk with some documentation straight from the factory a while ago. From what it says they originally wanted a temperature dependent overcurrent feature, but ended up just making boost mode = fast start 10. So basically useless, yea.

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