new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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DtiK   10 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DtiK » May 02 2021 7:37pm

Tommm wrote:
May 02 2021 5:34pm
DtiK wrote:
May 02 2021 4:32pm
1. Is there anyone that has succesfully got Cyclone 3000w working with Grin Phaserunner in sensored mode? What did you do? I have read about doing "RC-filter" to hall sensors to fix their output? Someone enlighten me.


2. Alternatively, is it possible to get Cyclone 3000w to work smoothly from standing stop with sensorless mode?. I am unable to get good settings for that. I get phase overcurrent faults and I'm almost clueless which settings I should I raise and which decrease. One thing is sure that raising Current Regulator Bandwith causes RF interference in my Cycle Analyst speedometer. It reads like 200-300km/h when I try to accelerate, before limiter (99kmh or 25kmh depending on which preset I have) stops my acceleration.

My settings now:
Feedback bandwidth tuning
Current regulator bandwidth: 1050 rads
PLL Bandwidth: 875 rads
PLL Damping: 2,00
Sensorless starting parameters
Alignment Hold Time: 100ms
Autostart Injection Current: 50,1A
Autostart Spinup Time: 3000ms
Autostart Max RPM: 8 RPM
I have cyclone coaxial and asi bac2000. No it doesn't work out of the box, same way it doesn't for kelly controllers either. WIth kelly, it apparently works if you use the halls on 12v instead of 5v (didn't try that with the asi), there was also some pullup resistor mod mentioned on this forum, I did the mod, no change. (phaserunner is made by asi)

I did figure out some killer sensorless settings, so you don't really notice it is in sensorless unless you are attempting to start from a huge incline hill.
12v instead of 5v did not help. doesnt work. no difference.

can you share killer sensorless settings? best i have got with phaserunner is like jumping with kangaroo and successful launch without error codes depends on throttle position (too much throttle = error).

Also, i dont understand why my sequence goes like this when i turn motor by hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqBYwxCyFo
like it sees "too much yellow". :roll:

with other controllers my cyclone runs just fine in sensored mode! must be something strange in phaserunner.. but im not only one having this problem with phaserunner + cyclone.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 02 2021 8:58pm

Negative feedback stabilizes and no feedback can be as bad as positive feedback.

A sensorless controller is an oxymoron term. Throw that controller away as the modern world runs smoothly with actual sensors (detectors) and actuators. That controller's method/design of detecting field intensity change (sounds great) is inadequate to respond to the rate of needed field change with a Cyclone motor. Ask for your money back? Or are you not tired of the headaches?

DtiK   10 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DtiK » May 02 2021 9:13pm

DingusMcGee wrote:
May 02 2021 8:58pm
Negative feedback stabilizes and no feedback can be as bad as positive feedback.

A sensorless controller is an oxymoron term. Throw that controller away as the modern world runs smoothly with actual sensors (detectors) and actuators. That controller's method/design of detecting field intensity change (sounds great) is inadequate to respond to the rate of needed field change with a Cyclone motor. Ask for your money back? Or are you not tired of the headaches?
No, because there is no any other controller that does same things like phaserunner in such small package.

I though FOC is the thing nowadays (no hall sensors needed except for starting of motor, after that theyre not used).

My only headache is getting sensored starting to work.. If i start with pedaling and configured to sensorless mode, its not even needed. Otherwise controller works good. Motor is quiet, regen braking works...

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by john61ct » May 02 2021 10:01pm

Most FOC controllers use sensors.

viewtopic.php?t=105139

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 03 2021 4:20pm

DtiK

I though FOC is the thing nowadays (no hall sensors needed except for starting of motor, after that theyre not used).


To get that phaserunner to work in all phases you could add a small electric starter motor from a small gas ⛽️ Lawnmower? Then go read about the Emperor's New Clothes.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 04 2021 5:40am

DtiK wrote:
May 02 2021 7:37pm
Tommm wrote:
May 02 2021 5:34pm
DtiK wrote:
May 02 2021 4:32pm
1. Is there anyone that has succesfully got Cyclone 3000w working with Grin Phaserunner in sensored mode? What did you do? I have read about doing "RC-filter" to hall sensors to fix their output? Someone enlighten me.


2. Alternatively, is it possible to get Cyclone 3000w to work smoothly from standing stop with sensorless mode?. I am unable to get good settings for that. I get phase overcurrent faults and I'm almost clueless which settings I should I raise and which decrease. One thing is sure that raising Current Regulator Bandwith causes RF interference in my Cycle Analyst speedometer. It reads like 200-300km/h when I try to accelerate, before limiter (99kmh or 25kmh depending on which preset I have) stops my acceleration.

My settings now:
Feedback bandwidth tuning
Current regulator bandwidth: 1050 rads
PLL Bandwidth: 875 rads
PLL Damping: 2,00
Sensorless starting parameters
Alignment Hold Time: 100ms
Autostart Injection Current: 50,1A
Autostart Spinup Time: 3000ms
Autostart Max RPM: 8 RPM
I have cyclone coaxial and asi bac2000. No it doesn't work out of the box, same way it doesn't for kelly controllers either. WIth kelly, it apparently works if you use the halls on 12v instead of 5v (didn't try that with the asi), there was also some pullup resistor mod mentioned on this forum, I did the mod, no change. (phaserunner is made by asi)

I did figure out some killer sensorless settings, so you don't really notice it is in sensorless unless you are attempting to start from a huge incline hill.
12v instead of 5v did not help. doesnt work. no difference.

can you share killer sensorless settings? best i have got with phaserunner is like jumping with kangaroo and successful launch without error codes depends on throttle position (too much throttle = error).

Also, i dont understand why my sequence goes like this when i turn motor by hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqBYwxCyFo
like it sees "too much yellow". :roll:

with other controllers my cyclone runs just fine in sensored mode! must be something strange in phaserunner.. but im not only one having this problem with phaserunner + cyclone.
151946199_3800196156706904_7143911290992509190_n.jpg
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This is for my cyc, it has 2 stage reduction so it will be more similar to the c3000w than my coaxial which has 1 stage reduction.

If you want to tweak it a bit:
1st param: power. set it higher if you are lacking power during the spinup sequence. drawback: setting it too high will rattle more and will probably be bad for motor internals. so keep it on the minimum that works for most cases. for a 223phase amps config, 0.15 is about 25-30A phase value. The bigger the motor and less reduction you have, the more you will need. generally between 0.12 to 0.20x of your phase amps value is enough. (on phaserunner this would be 20-30A injection current maxiumum.
2nd and 4th param: how much time the sensorless spinup should take. it should be 100/100 for a smaller or 150/150 for a bigger motor.
3rd param: how high of an rpm to spin up to during the sensorless spinup. The bigger the reduction the higher the rpm you need to get the bike moving. use 8 for big motor 15 for small motor with a lot of reduction.
5th param (hold time) similar to above param, but since it is inverted as in measuring ms instead of Hz, the smaller the motor and bigger the reduction, the smaller the hold time.

There is no perfect setup that will handle a hill climb startup (strong and long spinup) but be lightning quick response during offroad (quick and quiet spinup). Me personally I go for quick spinup in exchange for needing to push myself forward just a tiny bit to start the bike off (about a turtle's pace is enough). Dumping the throttle from zero rpm is the worst you can do anyway, and this conservative setup prevents people from doing it.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » May 04 2021 7:17am

Tommm,

I am impressed you got that insufficient controller to sort of work. Thanks for piping up.

That controller of "such a small package" would be worthless on an edirtbike if the response you describe for likely very mild hill starts is the best it can do.

I'd rather be riding, than.....

Skirmish   100 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skirmish » May 06 2021 8:10am

Can this motor be run with virtual-torque as throttle with stock controller? eg. faster pedal = motor spins faster, slow pedal = motor spins slowly

Can I limit the max power & speed?

Is there a road / off road mode?

Thanks!

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » May 07 2021 5:22am

Skirmish wrote:
May 06 2021 8:10am
Can this motor be run with virtual-torque as throttle with stock controller? eg. faster pedal = motor spins faster, slow pedal = motor spins slowly

Can I limit the max power & speed?

Is there a road / off road mode?

Thanks!
From what I've seen, cyclone is bundling different controllers to the motors now, not yuyangkings (which would have been a no). So is GNG. I have no idea what those controllers are capable of, but usually the pas sensors are an on/off switch, and you change assistance from the display instead of it listening to cadence (the former is what bafang or kt controllers do).

The motor is just a piece of metal, once you have the controller and sensors to do what you want, any motor can do it.

harvester   10 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by harvester » May 27 2021 2:40am

Hi, I'm building my first GNG Cyclone 3kW ebike. Almost everything is working well, next is to install and set up the new Kelly controller. And then maybe I will potting the motor to get the best out of it.
If it is allowed to post, a facebook group is here, would be great if we can help each other there too:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/357143392228423

Is anyone found a good 5holes freewheel in Europe? This one is not so reliable ( https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33059965147.html ). A freewheel maybe from a CNC mechanic with ball bearings would be much better but it needs a threaded middle part for the crank so not easy

harvester   10 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by harvester » Jun 16 2021 3:04pm

How to take off the rotor from the cyclone 3kw motor?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Jun 16 2021 9:19pm

harvester wrote:
Jun 16 2021 3:04pm
How to take off the rotor from the cyclone 3kw motor?
Have you got the gearbox off yet?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

harvester   10 µW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by harvester » Jun 18 2021 1:56am

Motor disassembly and potting done, thx.
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Chalo » Jun 18 2021 12:15pm

Umm, okay. Careful you don't get pinched putting the rotor back in.

What was your reason for the conformal coating? I've gone into a lot of those motors without ever having seen much corrosion or signs of water infiltration.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Tommm » Jun 18 2021 6:00pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 18 2021 12:15pm
Umm, okay. Careful you don't get pinched putting the rotor back in.

What was your reason for the conformal coating? I've gone into a lot of those motors without ever having seen much corrosion or signs of water infiltration.
Mainly cooling

Brandon122603   1 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Brandon122603 » Jul 10 2021 10:36pm

I usually build gas bikes, this is my first ebike build, boy did i have allot to learn. Any and all help would be greatly apreciated. I would first off like to ask Skaiwerd a question as it turns out I'm using the same fatbike for my build, well kind of. My first question is how is the frame and wheels holding up. When i recieved mine i thought the frame and wheels, or more specifically the spokes were too weak for this motor. Not that I have any prior experience to go off of, just assuming this to be about 5 times more powerful than my 2hp 2 strokes. I'm looking for 10guage spokes to switch out but if yours are fine I may not need to. All i really used from that bike is the wheels, brakes, fork because i have nto yet found anohter within budget, handlebars. I used the stealth bomber frame from ebay for $275. I got the 6kw Triple chainwheel kit square tape 100mm, 80A Bluetooth programable. I have it installed fairly well i think, I dont yet have a battery to test it yet. I was hoping to get a recomendation for where to either buy a battery or the materials to make my own. Im at close to $1300 so far and am limited to about $400 for the battery. Probably should have bought that first. I have a short white wire that i have no idea what it goes to. Not sure where the phase line meter is supposed to go. I'm waiting on the pedal assist senosr and a 3 speed switch. I was going to use a 3 speed rear sprocket with shimano derailuer but after reading previous posts decided against it. I will most likely switch out the crank set that came with the bike for on of my gasbike chainwheels with the same 44,44, 32 because of the 4.2mm steel plates used. I'm guessing i would be best using a 44 tooth sprocket in the back. It would help to mention this build is for a desert bike with many hills to climb, some with not much room for aceleration.

All suggestions, comments, advice welcome!!!
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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jul 11 2021 10:26am

Brandon122603
I’m still dealing with bent axels in the back. To recap the original and a chrome alloy replacement 3/8” have been bent at 60amp 75volts first rides out. The bike was still rideable with a chain retighten, you need the adjusters and go single speed, the chain needs to be very tight. You won’t need pedal gears. I have to reweld the 10mm axel I made out of grade 10.9 bolts, bent at the weld, I ground too much of the weld off and I could have welded with more penetration, more of a bevel edge this time. Still perfecting the loose ball bearing to sealed cartridge bearings conversion. One failure seen in picture.
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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jul 11 2021 12:10pm

The batteries have gone up roughly $150 each ouch! I’m glad I bought when I did last fall for the 11/11 sale. It wasn’t much of a savings over the regular prices but now the price is just crazy. $450 more to power up your dream ride ( getting three for 72v) is going to hurt, shop wisely or wait it out is my recommendation. I got them at $175/ea previously. This is more of a reason to consider the cheaper route on the frame and wheels in my opinion. Things my stay overpriced, who knows. Adding in my guesstimate of $1200+ to a build for a name brand steel frame/decent wheels is a tough bullet to bite. Still not accounting for a fork yet either. I’ve been looking at 45north wrathchild fat tires w studs at $235 each, this is a not a budget activity to get into for sure.
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Brandon122603   1 mW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Brandon122603 » Jul 11 2021 2:32pm

I'm new and still learning all the specifics, but would this work? I know they're cheap knock off crap at best. But would two of them make a useable 72v 20ah battery. I'm not worried about them lasting long, I'll lget the warranty coverage plan so when they fail i can get them replaced or my money back. just want to know if theyd work and will it be safe connected in series? Also would i need to charge them sperately, do i find a bms foe both?
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pwd   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by pwd » Jul 11 2021 2:41pm

Brandon122603 wrote:
Jul 11 2021 2:32pm
I'm new and still learning all the specifics, but would this work? I know they're cheap knock off crap at best. But would two of them make a useable 72v 20ah battery. I'm not worried about them lasting long, I'll lget the warranty coverage plan so when they fail i can get them replaced or my money back. just want to know if theyd work and will it be safe connected in series? Also would i need to charge them sperately, do i find a bms foe both?
They are likely crap, which you know. Even the ad says 500W; you'd have to know the cell's max discharge capability to determine if there are usable over 500W.
2WD Commuter/Street Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98286:
Rocky Mountain Element - upgrades in progress
Magic Pie 4 front w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 70A phase + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ Infineon 4 Clone @ 230A phase
Samsung 40T3 20S6P

Offroad Build viewtopic.php?f=6&t=102195:
2017 Scott Big Jon
Cyclone "3kw" 13T motor to 36T chain ring then 32T chain ring to 11T-46T Cassette @ 100A phase
Molicel P42A 21S3P

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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Jul 11 2021 2:42pm

It seems too good to be true. I’d be cautious. But yes using the two batteries in series where the voltage increases with each additional identical battery. Capacity and amps remain the same as single battery. Make a custom plug with two female xt60s. You disconnect them to charge them separately and forget about bms. Balancing is done while charging them.

DingusMcGee   10 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by DingusMcGee » Aug 21 2021 7:16am

The motor's phase wire plug which hooks to the controller phase wires on the Cyclone 6K motor cannot take the controller's max output of 80 amp without overheating and melting the solder on the wires. The compact plug may have less than a millimeter of plastic separating the three soldered wires which is not enough cooling space during high amperage demands. On the last melt the CycleAnalyst read max 79.48 amps going to the 80 amp controller. The plug likely got a little less amps.
IMG_0746.JPG
Two wires

The solder on 2 phase wires melted at 80 amps
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This is the third separation on 2 different 6K motors. I had been repairing these plugs by cleaning the solder with a Dremel Tool/ milling shaft used to clean the holes. For the fix of this last separation I cut out the worthless plug and swaged the wires using copper sleeves -- no more melting solder.

Note: the wire colors change across the plug. Blue is not connected to blue etc.

minimum   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by minimum » Aug 21 2021 9:48am

That connector should be rated to 60A max if I recall correctly. Thicker phase wires should help as well, but then soldering the connector on will be PITA. I used the same type of connector (before I upgraded to nucular) with powervelocity controller at 65/130A but with upgraded phase wires. Had to "prune" wire strands off to thinner the stripped end of wires in order to be able to push it into those soldering cavities on connector.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Manbeer » Aug 21 2021 8:03pm

So now that it doesn't seem Luna is carrying these, what is the vendor of choice? I see the 3kw kits and a few odds and ends on sick bike parts, but not terribly much and with the cheesier mounting hardware. It looks like GNG 3kw kits are basically the same as these Cyclones but with higher quality fittings? Whats the story there?

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Skaiwerd   1 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Skaiwerd » Aug 22 2021 8:02am

I’ve always eliminated the plugs once I’ve got the cyclone up and running. It helps reduce the wire rats nest and the problems you’re encountering.
It’s true that Luna sometimes sells the cyclone, basic 40amp and also the 60amp version. Sick bike parts usually just sells the 40amp version and no isis cranks. Ordering from cyclone of Taiwan is always and option. We’re supposed to maybe get a shipping discount if we ask and mention we’re ES members, unverified though. Coaxial type kits only available from cyclone direct.
I think that the GNG /CYC is the natural, upgraded replacement for the cyclone. It has a torque sensing in the bottom bracket that seems to work well going from my ES post reads. The secondary reduction is more compact and uses 219 cart chain. The brackets and chain tensioner seem well engineered. The obvious downside is 2-3 times the cost of the cyclone. But I feel it’s worthy of being installed on a higher end bike than the cyclone. If a build cost inches close to the sur-Ron price it makes you wonder the reasoning behind a conversion. My thinking it’s still a bike which allows you the bike privileges and acceptance you’re not going to get with a edirt bike like the air-ron. The cyc has a USA distributor,
https://www.electrifybike.com/collections/cyc-motors

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