Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 17 2015 1:44pm

crossbreak wrote:níce motor mount! is`it an RV120?
Thats right, it is a RV120 pro with hallsensors etc.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 19 2015 3:50pm

Some soldering and wiring, getting close to powering up the adaptto and revolt to see if I can get em to like each other.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 22 2015 8:28am

Havent gotten many new photos, but did alot of cabling work and actually testrode the bike with the powertrain.
I have tried to get the adaptto to work well with the revolt, but I fear the efficiency isnt great. Motor gets warm and I am pulling maybe 3kW tops, most of the time 1-2kw or less. Gone thropugh the settings according to the manual motor setup and have them set o the best of my knowledge.

Maybe I have missed something, maybe the rv120 doesnt run will on sine, hopefully Ill know soon. I tried squarewave aswell, but havent really tested it for a longer ride to determine if motor gets warm or not. Its very clear tho, that sine is much smoother and quiter.
This aside, the bike is runing well and the power is very linear from 0.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 28 2015 2:05pm

More progress! Getting close now.

Fabricated some new guidewheels for the steering with bearings to reduce the overall drag from the guidewheels at high tension. Result was an even better steering feel. I would say the steering feels 98% like a regular bike now. No bad behaviour whatsoever.
Started a front cover that act as protection for the exposed bearings on the wirerollers and also tieing the shapes together abit. Provides at least a smidge balance to the very fat body in the otherwise skinny front. Not 100% happy with the shape, but I felt I couldnt spend more time on this.

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Did the epoxipriming of the entire frame and also got some assistance with filling and sanding the worst bumps. Tedious work.
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Painting rig, getting ready to apply the real paint.
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It became a firetruck. The cargofloor sits in the background, prepared to be mounted on the complete bike.
As of now all parts are painted and assembly starts when everything has cured.
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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 30 2015 5:46pm

More progress!

Assembly of the bike after painting. Sealing the batterycompartment.

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Almost finished bike.
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First cargotest was a success! 40litres of diesel from the nearest gasstation. (6km)
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The bike is almost done. Whats missing is only the wall infront of the electronics compartment. Still debating on suitable alternatives.
Overall I am not achieving the efficiency I would like to see, will probably buy a hubmotor and do compareable tests. I suspect the adaptto + revolt doesnt play great together.
Efficiency is the only remark at this time tho, it works well otherwise.

Also, the long wheelbase +full suspension + suspended comfort saddle = very smooth ride :)

Will try to set up some video in the near future.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Gregory » Jul 30 2015 7:08pm

It looks amazing. You've put in some serious time and effort.

Love the idea of the cable steering, hope it works well at speed.


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Stielz » Jul 30 2015 7:23pm

Some awesome work you've done there!

Regarding the efficiency, I have experience using Adaptto with RC outrunner motor. My findings were that manual tuning of the adaptto is required, and that tuning under no load gives very poor results when the motor is under load. You'll need to spend lots of time adjusting settings then trying it out.

What sort of efficiency are you getting in Wh/km?

And are you having problems with the motor overheating?

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 30 2015 7:41pm

Gregory wrote:It looks amazing. You've put in some serious time and effort.

Love the idea of the cable steering, hope it works well at speed.
Thanks! Yes it has been some intensive weeks to get this one done.
The cablesteering is a tough one. I have learned some very important things:


1. If the fork is self stabilizing with a good margin, it is much more forgiving. Mine is not.
2. Slack has to be reduced to a minimum. This includes slack under high load on the steering.
3. The friction must be low even if the tension is high, otherwise the steering will feel strange and uncomfortable anyway.
4. Using larger diameter endwheels will reduce the effect of any slack as length of wire per degree turned increases.

If I had to remake the entire steering, I would plan the guidepoints with more stiffness in mind (I have beefed up the initial guides).
I would use only ball gearing guide wheels, and I would try a dyneema fiberline as alternative to the wire. (No guarantee it is any better tho, but should be more adaptive and lose slack at a lower tension. I would try to find some material to make slightly bigger endwheels.
That being said, my current system works very well. 40litres of diesel on the cargofloor was no problem.
Tested up to 60km/h without cargo.

I have had my doubts during the process, thats for sure, but i think this setup is a keeper.
Last edited by Wheazel on Aug 07 2015 7:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 30 2015 9:09pm

Stielz wrote:Some awesome work you've done there!

Regarding the efficiency, I have experience using Adaptto with RC outrunner motor. My findings were that manual tuning of the adaptto is required, and that tuning under no load gives very poor results when the motor is under load. You'll need to spend lots of time adjusting settings then trying it out.

What sort of efficiency are you getting in Wh/km?

And are you having problems with the motor overheating?
Oh! Rc motor and adaptto experience sounds very intresting!

I have seen between 20 and 30 wh/km when cruising at ~35-40km/h. For reference, my other bike (a 3wheeled upright tilting trike) with a revolt 100 (old version) and a cheap noname controller gets roughly 18-20wh/km when driven between 40 and 50km/h, and the trike feels harder to pedal ontop of that.
So I am positive the trike requires more power for a given speed.

I also experience that the motor stays reasonably cool during lighter loads (500w-2kw) but over that it heats up quick. Havent overheated it, but it seems efficiency gets worse when load increases. I have done the manual tuning at no load as per the manual.

I feel there isnt very many parameters to change, and the adjustment steps are quite large (maybe theres a feature to make smaller steps that I dont know of) Which parameter did you change to get the efficiency higher under load? And in what direction?

My plans forward were to make a ~5km to point and back roundtrip at cruise (45 km/h for example), then repeat it with different settings. A bit timeconsuming, but maybe there will be large enough differences in Wh consumed to draw conclusions.
I am grateful if your knowledge can speed up this process! :)

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by ridethelightning » Jul 30 2015 10:27pm

love this practicle style build!

perhaps your max-e isnt set right for the rc motor...others have had trouble with that, but id be considering a mxus or QS hub in there or even a 5404.

btw what 18650 cells are they? whats the total capacity?

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 31 2015 5:43am

They are LG D1 cells. Reason for them is that they were high capacity and cheaper than the alternatives.
If I charge to 4,2V Isntead of 4,35, they should deliver above 9Wh per cell according to
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries20 ... %20UK.html

Most riding will be at 1A or less per cell. 18x26cells in the pack. 468cells times 9Wh Should mean 4,2kWh theoretical capacity.
Most of the time I will charge to 4,1V tho, as it will be easy to fit in chargecycles with so much wiggleroom for not charging after every ride.
It is not the best cell, but I have had good experiences with my other pack of 180cells in 12s config on the upright trike. Current limited to 30A in the CA.

In the adaptto I have a 50A battery current limit in boostmoode when I want to go fast. Normal mode is set at 30A limit as of now.
30A still delivers around 2kW.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by ridethelightning » Jul 31 2015 7:16am

i have a cargo bike with 220 lg mg1 cells, 22s10p, mine-e ,5404 /20"wheel

riding 6 months ,so far very good. its amazing how much weight you can get up hills on these things at 50kph.

im topping out at 6kw+ i think.

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Jul 31 2015 11:59am

ridethelightning wrote:i have a cargo bike with 220 lg mg1 cells, 22s10p, mine-e ,5404 /20"wheel

riding 6 months ,so far very good. its amazing how much weight you can get up hills on these things at 50kph.

im topping out at 6kw+ i think.
Sounds great! How is the startup from zero with cargo and that hub?

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Stielz » Jul 31 2015 8:15pm

Not too many setting to adjust, really just the timing correction angle and ind timing.I just start with an auto tune then manual tuning but testing the settings in on road tests for each adjustment.it is a time consuming process. I found that I needed a significant amount of increase in angle correction.

On another note, is there much leakage magnetic field from the motor can? Looking at your photos it looks like a fairly small gap between the motor can and the aluminium mounting hardware. Leakage magnetic field can induce current in the aluminium mount which could be effecting your efficiency

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Bluefang » Aug 01 2015 12:01am

More likely the heat is due to been a heavy bike and a tiny little motor mass. You have some awesome skills with metal work but i have not noticed if you have built a proper fan onto the end of the motor? No matter what its sold for its still a RC style motor that will need a TON of cooling air flow thru it. What sort of RPM is the motor running it? Is it the high KV motor of the low KV one? Also is the alloy plate next to the can of the motor getting warm if so its too close and will affect hte motor heat too.
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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by ridethelightning » Aug 01 2015 2:40am

Wheazel wrote:
ridethelightning wrote:i have a cargo bike with 220 lg mg1 cells, 22s10p, mine-e ,5404 /20"wheel

riding 6 months ,so far very good. its amazing how much weight you can get up hills on these things at 50kph.

im topping out at 6kw+ i think.
Sounds great! How is the startup from zero with cargo and that hub?
well the 5404(alu stator version) is living up to its rep, barely breaking a sweat even when asked to haul ~200kg from a standstill up steep hills (the sort that get you puffed just walking up)
i get around 60C max motor temps usually. i dont think iv ever got it over 80C, even after prolonged abuse.

the mini-e is working ok but has some fet temp issues(needs more heatsink/cooling)

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Aug 01 2015 3:57am

Stielz wrote:Not too many setting to adjust, really just the timing correction angle and ind timing.I just start with an auto tune then manual tuning but testing the settings in on road tests for each adjustment.it is a time consuming process. I found that I needed a significant amount of increase in angle correction.

On another note, is there much leakage magnetic field from the motor can? Looking at your photos it looks like a fairly small gap between the motor can and the aluminium mounting hardware. Leakage magnetic field can induce current in the aluminium mount which could be effecting your efficiency
This is true, the gap to my aluminium mount is small, only like 5mm or so. The bottom plate of the mount is also hollowed to allow the motor to sit even lower.
I was under the impression that nonmagnetic material didnt induce currents in the same way as steel would.
I even scrapped a motormount and a raincover made from steel for that reason. the motor attracts magnetic objects outside the can quite strong, if thats a good indication for leakage.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by tahustvedt » Aug 01 2015 4:07am

It turned out great.
Wheazel wrote: The bike is almost done. Whats missing is only the wall infront of the electronics compartment. Still debating on suitable alternatives.
I suggest using plexiglass. You can leave it clear or paint the inside surface which. Biltema has 4mm sheets.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Aug 01 2015 4:12am

Bluefang wrote:More likely the heat is due to been a heavy bike and a tiny little motor mass. You have some awesome skills with metal work but i have not noticed if you have built a proper fan onto the end of the motor? No matter what its sold for its still a RC style motor that will need a TON of cooling air flow thru it. What sort of RPM is the motor running it? Is it the high KV motor of the low KV one? Also is the alloy plate next to the can of the motor getting warm if so its too close and will affect hte motor heat too.

I dont think this is accurate, for a few reasons.
1: The motor mass is 4,8kg.
2. My enclosed much lighter revolt 100 (old version) doesnt get warm in the same way from almost the same power output.
3. The revolt 120pro has more open endbells and alot of air stirs around the stator.

Motor kv is supposedly 43. I'd say most of my riding and testing has been done between 1000 and 1500rpm.
I will however have to check the motormount better and see if it actually gets warm other than from mounted contact with the stator.

Thanks!

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Wheazel   10 kW

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Aug 01 2015 4:13am

tahustvedt wrote:It turned out great.
Wheazel wrote: The bike is almost done. Whats missing is only the wall infront of the electronics compartment. Still debating on suitable alternatives.
I suggest using plexiglass. You can leave it clear or paint the inside surface which. Biltema has 4mm sheets.
Great suggestion, will probably end up using that! Sturdy enough for that spot and very weather safe :)

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Aug 01 2015 4:15am

Wheazel wrote:
Stielz wrote:Not too many setting to adjust, really just the timing correction angle and ind timing.I just start with an auto tune then manual tuning but testing the settings in on road tests for each adjustment.it is a time consuming process. I found that I needed a significant amount of increase in angle correction.

On another note, is there much leakage magnetic field from the motor can? Looking at your photos it looks like a fairly small gap between the motor can and the aluminium mounting hardware. Leakage magnetic field can induce current in the aluminium mount which could be effecting your efficiency
This is true, the gap to my aluminium mount is small, only like 5mm or so. The bottom plate of the mount is also hollowed to allow the motor to sit even lower.
I was under the impression that nonmagnetic material didnt induce currents in the same way as steel would.
I even scrapped a motormount and a raincover made from steel for that reason. the motor attracts magnetic objects outside the can quite strong, if thats a good indication for leakage.
What about pwr timing? No visible effect?

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Stielz » Aug 01 2015 5:45pm

With the pwr timing I'd suggest setting that to something low like 0.18 while you do your testing with the other settings. Once you've got those dialed in then try increasing pwr timing for better acceleration. As the name suggests, pwr timing is about getting high power when its called for and would make the efficiency worse when you have a high value

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by John in CR » Aug 04 2015 8:15pm

There's no way that Leaf motor is enough motor to drive that cargo bike at that voltage and wheel size, and that's before loading it down. You're making too big a hole through the wind. It might work in a 16" wheel. It's got 6-8 times the copper resistance of the Revolt 120, so even if the hubbie survived it couldn't be close to the efficiency of the Revolt at the same power and voltage.

What's your gear ratio with the mid-drive? The efficiency doesn't seem too out of whack if you're riding in a relaxed upright position, but I've never tried a bike with all that width. What kind of current are you drawing at 40kph cruise.

Without the chain on what's your no-load current and rpm? That should tell a lot about the timing tuning. You have plenty of motor for your desired speed, so it should run efficiently with good tuning.

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Re: Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

Post by Wheazel » Aug 05 2015 2:59am

We will see about if it works, I am thinking it should since most of my riding is sub 1500W.
The correct winding should be doing well.

I have done some more tuning by creating a well covering splashguard over the rear wheel and then lower 1/3 of the wheel into the lake.
Gives around 15A draw at 40km/h, very close to the same as going 40km/h on the road. This helped me run a few minutes at constant load and then check wh used to change some values.
Still more could be done tuningwise I think.

Went the usual 23kms at ~42km/h at 26Wh/km, which was better than the previous ride when i went 36km/h for 30Wh/km (altho slightly worse wind conditions that ride)
More trips will give a better idea.

Gearing is right now 13T motor 60T wheel.

The motormount doesnt seem to heat up, not even when running the wheel in water and bike standing still.
Even tried to go ~3kW for 2minutes and no noticeable change in motor mount temp. Motor gets warm after a while from any treatment above 1500w.

I will have to check noload of the motor with no chain, when I did noload tuning at first(with the wheel off the ground), I couldnt get the noload at full throttle to go under 5-7A.

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