New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jun 19 2020 4:09am

ilu wrote:
Jun 18 2020 10:46pm
sysrq wrote:
Jun 18 2020 8:17pm
How can this brake the sprag clutch? Some who are using 2mm spacers between the main gear and the spider as a requirement to mount two chain rings might expect the failure of the sprag clutch then.
Well I can't be sure if it was because of the gap or if the clutch was faulty, but soon after I changed the spider my sprag clutch started slipping and I noticed that the plastic part that is holding the clutch rollers was coming out and was broken. So it seemed that it broke because the spider was not pressing against it. Might also be that because of the gap some dirt was getting in.
Looks like the seal on this one has failed on the other side.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comment ... s_view_all

devboy-greg   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Jun 20 2020 7:52am

thineight wrote:
Jun 18 2020 5:39pm
So, how did you seal your 38mm hole? I expect my 104BCD will arrive with the same hole. I wonder if there is any 38ODx15ID compatible seal.
I had the same issue as you with the seal that comes with the motor would not fit the older style 108 BCD spider I had also ordered. So I didn’t fill the whole which left the sprag clutch bearing exposed and it failed very quickly due to water ingression from washing and rain etc.

My solution was to design a simple adapter that is 3d printed in PETG, just snaps in (with some force) and then I sealed the inside of the spider adapter joint with a thin bead of silicone. The smaller seal just pushes into it. Been running it through 2 British winters without an issue.

You can grab it from Thingiverse if you think it will be of use:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4485968
Attachments
tsdz2-spider-adapter.jpg
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thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jun 21 2020 2:50pm

devboy-greg wrote:
Jun 20 2020 7:52am
thineight wrote:
Jun 18 2020 5:39pm
So, how did you seal your 38mm hole? I expect my 104BCD will arrive with the same hole. I wonder if there is any 38ODx15ID compatible seal.
I had the same issue as you with the seal that comes with the motor would not fit the older style 108 BCD spider I had also ordered. So I didn’t fill the whole which left the sprag clutch bearing exposed and it failed very quickly due to water ingression from washing and rain etc.

My solution was to design a simple adapter that is 3d printed in PETG, just snaps in (with some force) and then I sealed the inside of the spider adapter joint with a thin bead of silicone. The smaller seal just pushes into it. Been running it through 2 British winters without an issue.

You can grab it from Thingiverse if you think it will be of use:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4485968
Interesting.. what's the diameter of your spider's hole then? not sure if this will fit mine as I still don't know which precise hole size I'm going to receive (from the web looks like 35-38mm). Perhaps it should have been better to order the spider with the standard hole to fit the standard rubber wipers.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

devboy-greg   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Jun 22 2020 6:05am

thineight wrote:
Jun 21 2020 2:50pm
Interesting.. what's the diameter of your spider's hole then? not sure if this will fit mine as I still don't know which precise hole size I'm going to receive (from the web looks like 35-38mm). Perhaps it should have been better to order the spider with the standard hole to fit the standard rubber wipers.
This adapter was designed to fit the old style spider with the 38mm hole, which is the one I have, (pictured).

I see PSW Power no longer sell the old adapter, the new style ones should have the correct hole to take the seal supplied with current motors.

Diva   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Diva » Jun 22 2020 2:07pm

Hi all,

I've a problem with one of those motors (48V 750W vlcd5 with the open source firmware)
I installed it on the bike, it worked ok for a couple of km and then it stoped. The controller is in short circuit. I've switched with another old controller, same result, short circuit after a couple of kilometers. I managed to get a spare controller and motor under warranty, for the same result, again.
Could it come from the screen or the speed sensor? Those are the only things I haven't changed on the bike.
The parameters are ok, I've another bike running with the same motor and parameters with hundreds of km and no problem...

doug-y-doug   1 µW

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SMOKING & SPARKING CONTROLLTER

Post by doug-y-doug » Jun 22 2020 3:40pm

I have a frightening problem with my TSDZ2. As soon as I connect the battery, the controller starts smoking and sparking. It wasn't always this way. I opened up the motor to replace the blue gear with a brass one, but I had problems when I put it back together and tested it out.

First I noticed I wasn't getting any power, when I test rode it my display was reading anywhere from 0 to 20 watts of motor power. I took it apart and put it back together again to make sure I didn't mess anything up on reassembly. Everything looked fine overall. I have one issue where the blue phase wire connection on the motor is not super tight because the nut is stripped. It's still connected though, just not tight. I don't think this is the problem because the sparking and smoking is not coming from that connection. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I tried running the motor before putting the cover back on and noticed that when I would give the motor any power (using walk mode), the controller would spark and smoke. Now as soon as I connect the battery and turn it on I get sparking and smoking.

The only possibility I can think of is maybe I ruined a connection somewhere during dis/re-assembly. I definitely need a new controller now, but I wonder if I need anything else.

Anyone have any idea what may have happened and how I might be able to fix it?

Big_Daddy   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Big_Daddy » Jun 22 2020 5:17pm

Hi, quick question for Casainho. Does the newest version of the OSF software support the TSDZ2 "Coaster Brake" version? Planning to install on a coaster brake bike with nexus 5 speed IHub. Also, are there in nuances to the settings that optimize use of the OSF with coaster brake motor? Thanks for your feedback.

Big_Daddy   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Big_Daddy » Jun 22 2020 8:50pm

Big_Daddy wrote:
Jun 22 2020 5:17pm
Hi, quick question for Casainho. Does the newest version of the OSF software support the TSDZ2 "Coaster Brake" version? Planning to install on a coaster brake bike with nexus 5 speed IHub. Also, are there in nuances to the settings that optimize use of the OSF with coaster brake motor? Thanks for your feedback.
Never mind I found the answers in the Wiki. The settings are listed. Should have looked there first. Thanks for doing such a great job with this stuff. Can't wait to see your Garmin implementation.

maiz   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maiz » Jun 22 2020 10:43pm

Big_Daddy wrote:
Jun 22 2020 8:50pm
Big_Daddy wrote:
Jun 22 2020 5:17pm
Hi, quick question for Casainho. Does the newest version of the OSF software support the TSDZ2 "Coaster Brake" version? Planning to install on a coaster brake bike with nexus 5 speed IHub. Also, are there in nuances to the settings that optimize use of the OSF with coaster brake motor? Thanks for your feedback.
Never mind I found the answers in the Wiki. The settings are listed. Should have looked there first. Thanks for doing such a great job with this stuff. Can't wait to see your Garmin implementation.
do you mind posting the link here? can't make heads or tales of the wiki atm

sysrq   100 W

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Re: SMOKING & SPARKING CONTROLLTER

Post by sysrq » Jun 23 2020 4:27am

doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 22 2020 3:40pm
I have a frightening problem with my TSDZ2. As soon as I connect the battery, the controller starts smoking and sparking. It wasn't always this way. I opened up the motor to replace the blue gear with a brass one, but I had problems when I put it back together and tested it out.

First I noticed I wasn't getting any power, when I test rode it my display was reading anywhere from 0 to 20 watts of motor power. I took it apart and put it back together again to make sure I didn't mess anything up on reassembly. Everything looked fine overall. I have one issue where the blue phase wire connection on the motor is not super tight because the nut is stripped. It's still connected though, just not tight. I don't think this is the problem because the sparking and smoking is not coming from that connection. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I tried running the motor before putting the cover back on and noticed that when I would give the motor any power (using walk mode), the controller would spark and smoke. Now as soon as I connect the battery and turn it on I get sparking and smoking.

The only possibility I can think of is maybe I ruined a connection somewhere during dis/re-assembly. I definitely need a new controller now, but I wonder if I need anything else.

Anyone have any idea what may have happened and how I might be able to fix it?
Where is the sparking and smoking coming from on the controller. Can it be seen on a picture.

Big_Daddy   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Big_Daddy » Jun 23 2020 7:03am

maiz wrote:
Jun 22 2020 10:43pm
Big_Daddy wrote:
Jun 22 2020 8:50pm
Big_Daddy wrote:
Jun 22 2020 5:17pm
Hi, quick question for Casainho. Does the newest version of the OSF software support the TSDZ2 "Coaster Brake" version? Planning to install on a coaster brake bike with nexus 5 speed IHub. Also, are there in nuances to the settings that optimize use of the OSF with coaster brake motor? Thanks for your feedback.
Never mind I found the answers in the Wiki. The settings are listed. Should have looked there first. Thanks for doing such a great job with this stuff. Can't wait to see your Garmin implementation.
do you mind posting the link here? can't make heads or tales of the wiki atm
https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... on-display

underdog3   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by underdog3 » Jun 23 2020 8:12am

I've searched a few different ways but haven't been able to find any information on the size of the 3 little music wire springs. I've chewed up a few, and am looking to source locally. I don't really want to wait months for them to ship from china. Does anyone have the size information? It looks like the post on the coil are about 0.3in in diameter?

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Jun 23 2020 10:07am

underdog3 wrote:
Jun 23 2020 8:12am
I've searched a few different ways but haven't been able to find any information on the size of the 3 little music wire springs. I've chewed up a few, and am looking to source locally. I don't really want to wait months for them to ship from china. Does anyone have the size information? It looks like the post on the coil are about 0.3in in diameter?
I had noticed too to impossible find them. From China can get them when order torque sensor too.

RicMcK   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Jun 23 2020 10:12am

I made some by cutting down a spring that was part of a electric moror carbon brush. Just find one that is really soft. I also hold them in place with grease when doing the assembly, so they don't fall out of the indendent
Rick Seattle WA

doug-y-doug   1 µW

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Re: SMOKING & SPARKING CONTROLLTER

Post by doug-y-doug » Jun 23 2020 11:25am

sysrq wrote:
Jun 23 2020 4:27am
doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 22 2020 3:40pm
I have a frightening problem with my TSDZ2. As soon as I connect the battery, the controller starts smoking and sparking. It wasn't always this way. I opened up the motor to replace the blue gear with a brass one, but I had problems when I put it back together and tested it out.

First I noticed I wasn't getting any power, when I test rode it my display was reading anywhere from 0 to 20 watts of motor power. I took it apart and put it back together again to make sure I didn't mess anything up on reassembly. Everything looked fine overall. I have one issue where the blue phase wire connection on the motor is not super tight because the nut is stripped. It's still connected though, just not tight. I don't think this is the problem because the sparking and smoking is not coming from that connection. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I tried running the motor before putting the cover back on and noticed that when I would give the motor any power (using walk mode), the controller would spark and smoke. Now as soon as I connect the battery and turn it on I get sparking and smoking.

The only possibility I can think of is maybe I ruined a connection somewhere during dis/re-assembly. I definitely need a new controller now, but I wonder if I need anything else.

Anyone have any idea what may have happened and how I might be able to fix it?
Where is the sparking and smoking coming from on the controller. Can it be seen on a picture.
I observed it with the cover off. The sparking and smoking appeared to be coming from the drive side, but I couldn’t really tell how high or low on the controller the origin was.

I ordered a new controller from Electrify, so I’ll pull the old one and post a pic some time next week.

doug-y-doug   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by doug-y-doug » Jun 23 2020 11:33am

I’m going to shorten the battery cables and use a Weatherpack connector instead of the connectors that came with the battery and motor.

Is there any reason not to add an inline fuse between The battery and motor? I was thinking about using one of these: https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/fu ... s-set-of-2

Doohickey   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jun 28 2020 4:24pm

Hi all;

I have a strange problem - today I did the improved cooling mod described on the OSF wiki (adding thermal compound and pads). I also extended the motor phase wires by about 8cm (one of the screws joining the wires wouldn't hold in anymore, plus I wanted to be able to take out the inner motor without disconnecting it..).

After that, I found the motor / bike had some bad judder at low speed, almost like it was almost stalling. Went back, took it apart, and tried out just the inner motor on it's own. When run on throttle (50% or more), the speed is very variable, almost like it's partially stuck or seized or something - but doesn't seem to be (pulled it apart again and the rotor seems to be properly seated everywhere, and can spin freely). It takes about 100w and gets quite warm. Video (sound)...:

[youtube]4TOkmRqq1HI[/youtube]

Any idea what could be wrong? Would extending the phase wires cause a problem like this?

Edit:

Fixed.. Shortening the phase wires back didn't have any effect. Took everything apart again. This time I pressed the inner motor back together with a vice before putting the six screws although that didn't seem to make much of a difference. It still had the same jerky rotation when taken out and unloaded, but I put it in, packed a lot more grease in there (I have the metal gear and used generic red lithium grease), put everything back together, and the problem was gone (after riding a few hundred meters, although i did the same the first time..) With it really packed with grease it is quite quiet too - about the same as original plastic gear I think.

I also replaced the replaced the outer case screws, and the inner 4 screws holding the motor in with torx ones - seemingly all of the screws it comes with strip after a few times of disassembling..
Last edited by Doohickey on Jun 29 2020 8:23am, edited 3 times in total.

Doohickey   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Jun 28 2020 4:32pm

doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 23 2020 11:33am
I’m going to shorten the battery cables and use a Weatherpack connector instead of the connectors that came with the battery and motor.

Is there any reason not to add an inline fuse between The battery and motor? I was thinking about using one of these: https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/fu ... s-set-of-2
I'd agree that that's probably a good idea - then you'll have two layers of protection in case of a short, mishap, or other problem - the battery BMS, and the fuse.

doug-y-doug   1 µW

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Re: SMOKING & SPARKING CONTROLLTER

Post by doug-y-doug » Jun 29 2020 2:57pm

sysrq wrote:
Jun 23 2020 4:27am
doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 22 2020 3:40pm
I have a frightening problem with my TSDZ2. As soon as I connect the battery, the controller starts smoking and sparking. It wasn't always this way. I opened up the motor to replace the blue gear with a brass one, but I had problems when I put it back together and tested it out.

First I noticed I wasn't getting any power, when I test rode it my display was reading anywhere from 0 to 20 watts of motor power. I took it apart and put it back together again to make sure I didn't mess anything up on reassembly. Everything looked fine overall. I have one issue where the blue phase wire connection on the motor is not super tight because the nut is stripped. It's still connected though, just not tight. I don't think this is the problem because the sparking and smoking is not coming from that connection. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I tried running the motor before putting the cover back on and noticed that when I would give the motor any power (using walk mode), the controller would spark and smoke. Now as soon as I connect the battery and turn it on I get sparking and smoking.

The only possibility I can think of is maybe I ruined a connection somewhere during dis/re-assembly. I definitely need a new controller now, but I wonder if I need anything else.

Anyone have any idea what may have happened and how I might be able to fix it?
Where is the sparking and smoking coming from on the controller. Can it be seen on a picture.
Here’s a pic of the fried controller. It looks like it really is coming from the blue phase circuit. Can anyone confirm?

Image

sysrq   100 W

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Re: SMOKING & SPARKING CONTROLLTER

Post by sysrq » Jul 02 2020 9:51am

doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 29 2020 2:57pm
sysrq wrote:
Jun 23 2020 4:27am
doug-y-doug wrote:
Jun 22 2020 3:40pm
I have a frightening problem with my TSDZ2. As soon as I connect the battery, the controller starts smoking and sparking. It wasn't always this way. I opened up the motor to replace the blue gear with a brass one, but I had problems when I put it back together and tested it out.

First I noticed I wasn't getting any power, when I test rode it my display was reading anywhere from 0 to 20 watts of motor power. I took it apart and put it back together again to make sure I didn't mess anything up on reassembly. Everything looked fine overall. I have one issue where the blue phase wire connection on the motor is not super tight because the nut is stripped. It's still connected though, just not tight. I don't think this is the problem because the sparking and smoking is not coming from that connection. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I tried running the motor before putting the cover back on and noticed that when I would give the motor any power (using walk mode), the controller would spark and smoke. Now as soon as I connect the battery and turn it on I get sparking and smoking.

The only possibility I can think of is maybe I ruined a connection somewhere during dis/re-assembly. I definitely need a new controller now, but I wonder if I need anything else.

Anyone have any idea what may have happened and how I might be able to fix it?
Where is the sparking and smoking coming from on the controller. Can it be seen on a picture.
Here’s a pic of the fried controller. It looks like it really is coming from the blue phase circuit. Can anyone confirm?

Image
"If it's not that, it could be loose connection, arcing between the contacts, or bad crimp from contact to wire. That can also cause melting of connector, wiring, etc., and the RF from the arc can destroy the controller."
Seems weird since controllers theoretically should have built in protection against things like these.
Last edited by sysrq on Jul 02 2020 7:33pm, edited 1 time in total.

josafrik   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by josafrik » Jul 02 2020 11:12am

I have had a problem with TSDZ2 for months. At first he noticed that the power had decreased, he was pushing less and less. Later it began to happen that from time to time it would go off, especially after a while pedaling and more likely on a steep hill. To try to find the problem I have flashed the software compatible with the original VLCD5 screen, and installed the temperature sensor and now what happens is that due to heating it gradually decreases the intensity until it turns off, but it also does sometimes without the warning of temperature and also it is suddenly, without previous warning. I don't know what the problem is, it's like it disconnects and after a while it reconnects. I guess there are only 3 pieces that could be: the motor controller, the motor itself, and the battery controller. I have opened the engine and it looks like it doesn't look bad, like one that showed casainho overheated and demagnetized. Any ideas what it might be or how to go about finding what causes the problem? Or maybe I will have to buy pieces to discard the one that fails.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jul 02 2020 12:42pm

josafrik wrote:
Jul 02 2020 11:12am
I have had a problem with TSDZ2 for months. At first he noticed that the power had decreased, he was pushing less and less. Later it began to happen that from time to time it would go off, especially after a while pedaling and more likely on a steep hill. To try to find the problem I have flashed the software compatible with the original VLCD5 screen, and installed the temperature sensor and now what happens is that due to heating it gradually decreases the intensity until it turns off, but it also does sometimes without the warning of temperature and also it is suddenly, without previous warning. I don't know what the problem is, it's like it disconnects and after a while it reconnects. I guess there are only 3 pieces that could be: the motor controller, the motor itself, and the battery controller. I have opened the engine and it looks like it doesn't look bad, like one that showed casainho overheated and demagnetized. Any ideas what it might be or how to go about finding what causes the problem? Or maybe I will have to buy pieces to discard the one that fails.
I think on a steep hill if a cadence is slightly too high or too low, or if the torque profile sensed by the torque sensor is a bit different then the assistance level is going to be reduced or intermittent for this mid drive. Not sure how it compares to the old Yamaha which is said to be similar. Mine 36V version only helps on long and shallow hills with grade up to 5%, or steep and short hills (22%, 20m), but not long and relatively steep hills (5-10%, 0.2-1km).
Or it could be just a weak battery. Mine is plain Chinese CYCBT 10.5Ah with few reviews such as "better than expected".
Last edited by sysrq on Jul 02 2020 7:23pm, edited 3 times in total.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 02 2020 4:39pm

Although it may seem that way, alas its not quite so, often I find that it feels like the motor is not putting in much power until with the OSF software you can display the motor power in Watts, very often with what feels like minimum motor input on long climbs you have already reached the max motor input of the level you have.

I could only recommend if you haven't already done so, go over to the OSF firmware where you can work out things with proper read outs of actually what the motor is giving at what cadence.

The other good thing of the OSF is that you have other modes of sensor input, which may suit your riding style better.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jul 03 2020 10:16am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 02 2020 4:39pm
Although it may seem that way, alas its not quite so, often I find that it feels like the motor is not putting in much power until with the OSF software you can display the motor power in Watts, very often with what feels like minimum motor input on long climbs you have already reached the max motor input of the level you have.
The TSDZ2 must be a relatively weak and heavy mid drive unit then.
Using OSF would be good but hard to justify the effort due to need for bigger more obstructive display and more distractions to fallow (power consumption, etc.) Speed and satnav seems to be enough as it is.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 03 2020 12:49pm

sysrq wrote:
Jul 03 2020 10:16am
Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 02 2020 4:39pm
Although it may seem that way, alas its not quite so, often I find that it feels like the motor is not putting in much power until with the OSF software you can display the motor power in Watts, very often with what feels like minimum motor input on long climbs you have already reached the max motor input of the level you have.
The TSDZ2 must be a relatively weak and heavy mid drive unit then.
Using OSF would be good but hard to justify the effort due to need for bigger more obstructive display and more distractions to fallow (power consumption, etc.) Speed and satnav seems to be enough as it is.
Why so, its light weight compared to most, its quite robust considering the kicking we are giving it, it can handle 500 - 600 W pretty comfortably, its relatively cheap in comparison to virtually every other mid drive, its parts are widely available, the OSF uses the standard displays even the very small XH18 hand grip display, isn't it time you either really got down and really understood how the motor operates and if you feel that's too difficult and not worth the time, then there's really only one route left for you, buy a Specialized or Scott and get full dealer support.

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