New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 14 2020 6:53pm

The Nachi 6001-2NSE9CM bearing I discussed a few posts back has arrived, it's for the pinion gear end of the reduction shaft. It feels really nice and tight, even by hand I can tell the internal play is much improved over the factory SYBS 6001RS.
Attachments
nachi.jpg
nachi.jpg (125.67 KiB) Viewed 1386 times
sybs.jpg
sybs.jpg (132.19 KiB) Viewed 1386 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 15 2020 3:04am

Elinx wrote:
Aug 12 2020 9:47am
famichiki wrote:
Aug 12 2020 8:59am
How do you mean the roller clutch bearing slipping? ...
This is what I mean
No way the roller clutch is slipping within my blue or brass gears. I tried tapping them out and they won't budge. Maybe they are adding a retaining compound there now or have improved the fit. I think I'd need to put them in the press to remove but I won't bother going any further with this.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Aug 15 2020 11:29am

Hey where did you get this puller?
famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:57pm
As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456

puller.jpg
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg
Rick Seattle WA

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Aug 15 2020 3:49pm

Thanks to everyone that has been helping and are now helping with this excellent firmware.
I've been spending a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out the best way to use version 1 on handcycles. At this point version, 1 is better than version 20 in all but the 3 ways below.

(1) Starting from a dead stop needs to be improved, it doesn't have enough assistance and shakes and vibrates for the first half rotation.
(2) With a coaster brake when pedaling and you want to reverse the crank rotation to brake, there is a great amount of resistance until you move the pedals forward again about a half-inch and then back again to brake. This problem was there in version 19 and Buba fixed it in version 20. If someone would please look into the difference between version 20 and version 19 to see what was done to fix this reverse resistance? And then make those changes to version 1! In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.
(3) It does have a small amount of overrun, but with the coaster brake motor you just hold back on the cranks and it stops. It would be nice to have this fixed. In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.

Version 20 is very easy to navigate and EMTB is an awesome setting. Version 1 is very refined but complicated. But after a lot of work and with help we have figured out where the settings need to be for handcycles so that it works well, and without torque sensor calibration being necessary.

I've attached a file showing my settings and photos showing my settings. Please comment and help solve these problems above at any time. Without this software and all the hard work that has gone and is going into it, it is much more difficult to take advantage of the TSZ2 on handcycles. Do not use any of these settings past level 5 or the motor will overheat without proper cooling.

Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I will include detailed photos and a description of how I liquid-cooled the TSDZ2 so it can handle double the power without overheating. A hint is, a small pump moves fluid threw the motor to a small radiator and back to cool it down. Not just any coolant or oil works well, after many trials it’s working well.
Motor.jpg
Motor.jpg (245.27 KiB) Viewed 1320 times
Assist Level.jpg
Assist Level.jpg (262.88 KiB) Viewed 1320 times
Torque Sensor.jpg
Torque Sensor.jpg (499.65 KiB) Viewed 1320 times
Startup Boost.jpg
Startup Boost.jpg (380.63 KiB) Viewed 1320 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 15 2020 5:22pm

RicMcK wrote:
Aug 15 2020 11:29am
Hey where did you get this puller?
famichiki wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:57pm
As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456

puller.jpg
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg
That photo is not mine, it's from the repair manual. However similar style pullers are used in automotive applications for removing harmonic balancers. Search for harmonic balancer puller, pulley puller or gear puller but you are unlikely to find one with M5 bolts that fit the gear so may need to modify it. I've made similar devices myself when needed.

Here's a couple of different examples.
https://alexnld.com/product/13pcs-harmo ... r-removal/
https://www.otctools.com/products/gear-pulley-puller-0

In our case there's not enough room to get the jaw type behind the gear, and also they are likely to damage the teeth. One might work if you put in a few bolts and can get the jaw teeth to grip under the bolt heads.

But as I said, for newer models the gear practically falls off by itself.
Last edited by famichiki on Aug 15 2020 5:30pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Aug 15 2020 7:44pm

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Aug 15 2020 3:49pm
Thanks to everyone that has been helping and are now helping with this excellent firmware.
I've been spending a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out the best way to use version 1 on handcycles. At this point version, 1 is better than version 20 in all but the 3 ways below.

(1) Starting from a dead stop needs to be improved, it doesn't have enough assistance and shakes and vibrates for the first half rotation.
(2) With a coaster brake when pedaling and you want to reverse the crank rotation to brake, there is a great amount of resistance until you move the pedals forward again about a half-inch and then back again to brake. This problem was there in version 19 and Buba fixed it in version 20. If someone would please look into the difference between version 20 and version 19 to see what was done to fix this reverse resistance? And then make those changes to version 1! In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.
(3) It does have a small amount of overrun, but with the coaster brake motor you just hold back on the cranks and it stops. It would be nice to have this fixed. In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.

Version 20 is very easy to navigate and EMTB is an awesome setting. Version 1 is very refined but complicated. But after a lot of work and with help we have figured out where the settings need to be for handcycles so that it works well, and without torque sensor calibration being necessary.

I've attached a file showing my settings and photos showing my settings. Please comment and help solve these problems above at any time. Without this software and all the hard work that has gone and is going into it, it is much more difficult to take advantage of the TSZ2 on handcycles. Do not use any of these settings past level 5 or the motor will overheat without proper cooling.

Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I will include detailed photos and a description of how I liquid-cooled the TSDZ2 so it can handle double the power without overheating. A hint is, a small pump moves fluid threw the motor to a small radiator and back to cool it down. Not just any coolant or oil works well, after many trials it’s working well.

Motor.jpgAssist Level.jpgTorque Sensor.jpgStartup Boost.jpgJeff's Features and configurations on display 850C-860C V1.0.0.rtf
I drove over to electrifybike.com this afternoon and we programed 2 handcycles with these newest settings for the National Ability Center, that have throttles on them. Electrify loves the new setting so much, they are much more usable for a HANDCYCLE. We discussed what we could do to be able to use these awesome settings and still not meltdown the TSDZ2 when pedaling and when using the throttle. What we came up with was that you don't use the throttle for more than a few feet at a time to get threw a tough spot, then you can use level 1-5. But if you're using it to get up a Hill then it has to be in level 1 if hot outside or level 2 if its cool outside, otherwise, it'll fry the motor. When you're on a handcycle the Motors right in front of your face so signs that it's too hot are very easy to recognize. If it starts to get louder it's too hot, if you touch it and can feel that it's hot it's too hot. We Suggest you use the settings with some common sense and your motor should last a long time. My fist motor has over 5000 miles on it. The newer motor has over 2500 miles. If you turn it up with the throttle or turn it up to much when it's hot outside even if you're pedaling it can overheat and you could fry it.
So just use common sense, work a little harder and your motor should last a long time!
Later,
Jeff

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Aug 15 2020 10:31pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 14 2020 3:21am
famichiki wrote:
Aug 13 2020 5:49pm
...... true for the axle, but anything we can do to minimise it will help........
...... the axle, I do wonder if these are made intentionally too small for a reason. Will it become even less reliable if we remove play and firm things up? .....
You have seen the contradiction?
But if it was made intentionally that way, I wonder what the reason is.
I can only think that the assembling and dissambling could be faster that way, but that can only be answered by Tongsheng.
The actual play becomes more worse after some time. The sprag clutch will be wear out faster.
Not a "qualified" engineer but I think that less play requires better overall casing tolerances to avoid univen stresses in the bearings. That might be the reason why they ended up with play like this.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 16 2020 9:05pm

skestans wrote:
Aug 13 2020 5:28am
A question about the temperature sensor and 8-wire controller: where do you get the +5V and GND from? The pictures on the wiki aren't very clear on that: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... ottle-type it's not super clear what's going on here.
I'm about to tackle this myself, there is a little bit more info in this post but it's the same photo from the wiki. If you've already done this and have some tips please share them.
viewtopic.php?p=1489282#p1489282

Here's the factory wiring I have in that area for the 8-pin cable.
Attachments
wiring.jpg
wiring.jpg (214.21 KiB) Viewed 1049 times

mctubster   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 16 2020 10:19pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 16 2020 9:05pm
skestans wrote:
Aug 13 2020 5:28am
A question about the temperature sensor and 8-wire controller: where do you get the +5V and GND from? The pictures on the wiki aren't very clear on that: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... ottle-type it's not super clear what's going on here.
I'm about to tackle this myself, there is a little bit more info in this post but it's the same photo from the wiki. If you've already done this and have some tips please share them.
viewtopic.php?p=1489282#p1489282

Here's the factory wiring I have in that area for the 8-pin cable.
I'm uploading an unedited video I made doing this last year. At the end of the day, you just need to make sure the colours haven't changed, so you don't let the magic smoke out! In my case, orange (8 wire throttle version) is the onboard ADC previously used for the throttle, so I cut it to use for the temp sensor centre leg (blue). For the white (5v) and the black (GND) I cut and then splice into them as they are required for the screen. Just make sure you trace where the white and orange go on the board to make sure they haven't change the colours on later boards (see the photo referenced above

Let me know if you have any further questions.

https://youtu.be/oR-hvIms-G8

Steve

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 17 2020 1:00am

mctubster wrote:
Aug 16 2020 10:19pm
Let me know if you have any further questions.
Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly? All these wires are from the 8-pin cable, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. This motor is the newer revision, purchased mid-2019.

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground
Attachments
wiring-labelled.jpg
wiring-labelled.jpg (247.36 KiB) Viewed 1033 times
Last edited by famichiki on Aug 17 2020 4:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 17 2020 5:16am

famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 1:00am

Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly?

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground
OK I had a dig through the images from the forum and found a better image and a better video I have too. Yes your labelling looks correct except I'm not sure I have the black wire that you labelled. Just use the black wire in the 8 wire loom along with the white and orange wires going to the display.

https://youtu.be/C2U7PKTt02s
TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg
TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg (138.53 KiB) Viewed 1012 times

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Aug 17 2020 6:43am

For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:

[youtube]AhgU8M5qEPg[/youtube]

Sure, the ones that do not want to save some money doing it, can always buy wireless remote like this from Garmin:

Image
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 17 2020 5:30pm

mctubster wrote:
Aug 17 2020 5:16am
famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 1:00am

Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly?

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground
OK I had a dig through the images from the forum and found a better image and a better video I have too. Yes your labelling looks correct except I'm not sure I have the black wire that you labelled. Just use the black wire in the 8 wire loom along with the white and orange wires going to the display.

https://youtu.be/C2U7PKTt02s

TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg
Ok, what I've labelled on that photo all seems correct then. Thanks for your help. I also found a previous discussion you were involved with, I followed my wiring to the connector with a multimeter and it matches the diagram.
viewtopic.php?p=1479105#p1479105

I've edited my post to say that all the wires I labelled are actually from the 8-pin wire loom, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. So it seems the black ground wire in the cable is being taken from a different place now.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 17 2020 5:38pm

casainho wrote:
Aug 17 2020 6:43am
For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:
How does the VLCD5 remote output the button signal, is it a different resistance for each button?

What are you using for the input to the controller, the throttle input or something else?

Can the brake input be repurposed to read analog signals or any other way to get an additional analog input?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 17 2020 7:07pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 5:30pm

Ok, what I've labelled on that photo all seems correct then. Thanks for your help. I also found a previous discussion you were involved with, I followed my wiring to the connector with a multimeter and it matches the diagram.
viewtopic.php?p=1479105#p1479105

I've edited my post to say that all the wires I labelled are actually from the 8-pin wire loom, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. So it seems the black ground wire in the cable is being taken from a different place now.
Great stuff. Are you able to update the wiki? If not I can do it later today.

Steve

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 17 2020 7:12pm

mctubster wrote:
Aug 17 2020 7:07pm
Great stuff. Are you able to update the wiki? If not I can do it later today.

Steve
I have never tried before, do I need to request permission? Feel free to use my labelled photo if you don't mind doing it.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 17 2020 9:15pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 7:12pm

I have never tried before, do I need to request permission? Feel free to use my labelled photo if you don't mind doing it.
OK done. Thanks for the great photo which I forgot to take!

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Aug 18 2020 3:47am

famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 5:38pm
casainho wrote:
Aug 17 2020 6:43am
For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:
1. How does the VLCD5 remote output the button signal, is it a different resistance for each button?
The idea is to have the buttons of VLCD5 remote to connect on a small wireless board. Each button state will be sent using standard wireless protocol for remote control buttons. Doing this, it works as seen on the video and my GPS cycling computer detects the buttons press.

The small wireless board implements both ANT+ and Bluetooth, as needed. It will use a small coin cell. Here the schematic (note that the brakes sensor connection is not tested yet, may be to slow or not the communication for brakes):

Image

And my setup for now, with flash debug pins of STLinkV2 wired as also external power supply instead of the coin cell:
Image
famichiki wrote:
Aug 17 2020 5:38pm
2. What are you using for the input to the controller, the throttle input or something else?

3. Can the brake input be repurposed to read analog signals or any other way to get an additional analog input?
I don't understand well your questions... but maybe you are missing the information of this project.

There will be another wireless board that will connect to TSDZ2 motor. This board will implement the standard o wireless EBike meaning any GPS cycling computer will be able to connect to it - I have it working now, I am using for testing my Garmin Edge cycling computer, see here a testing I did:

I got the motor voltage / power for TSDZ2 being turned on and off when I change the EBike assist level to 0, on my GPS cycling computer:

[youtube]P9KJfSMeXSI[/youtube]

And a picture of my current board (yes, I am always using the same wireless board as the main board). The big blue board converts the battery voltage of 24V ~ 52V to 5V to power the wireless board. What is missing is the UART TX and RX to the TSDZ2 motor, I did not tested that yet:
Image
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vass » Aug 18 2020 4:51am

For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll :( ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Big_Daddy » Aug 18 2020 8:01pm

Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 18 2020 9:59pm

Big_Daddy wrote:
Aug 18 2020 8:01pm
Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks
I began to strip one but got it out. Normally to remove you need a good fitting phillips head and firm pressure to keep it from camming out. If it's too far gone, you may have to very slowly try to drill the head out of the screw. I just switched mine to torx so I don't get this problem again.
torx.jpg
torx.jpg (97.84 KiB) Viewed 826 times

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Aug 18 2020 11:01pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 18 2020 9:59pm
Big_Daddy wrote:
Aug 18 2020 8:01pm
Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks
I began to strip one but got it out. Normally to remove you need a good fitting phillips head and firm pressure to keep it from camming out. If it's too far gone, you may have to very slowly try to drill the head out of the screw. I just switched mine to torx so I don't get this problem again.

torx.jpg
Try a fast drying epoxy (2 part) with your best fitting screwdriver. Make sure it sets properly before trying. Try "snapping" the turning of the screwdriver. Rather than smoothly increasing the torque, more of a jerk impulse to overcome any pseudo welding etc. Or cut a slot into it (with a dremal) and use a flat screwdriver. I think I got close on one of mine, the metal is soft :\

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 19 2020 1:29am

I'd like to fit a connector to the 3 electric motor wires so I can just unplug without needing to unscrew the terminals. I'm hoping to make it easier to replace the blue gear out on the road if need be.

MR30 look interesting, can anyone here share their experience with these or have any other suggestions?
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/mr30-2-0mm- ... r-bag.html
Attachments
motor-wiring.jpg
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Aug 19 2020 5:55am

Doohickey wrote:
Jun 28 2020 4:24pm
I have a strange problem - today I did the improved cooling mod described on the OSF wiki (adding thermal compound and pads). I also extended the motor phase wires by about 8cm (one of the screws joining the wires wouldn't hold in anymore, plus I wanted to be able to take out the inner motor without disconnecting it..).
What size wire did you extend the motor wires with? The factory wires are about 2mm including insulation, so I guess the core is 1.5mm? Will 16 AWG be fine or do I need to go thicker? They are very solid feeling wires too, I wonder if there is any harm in using something more flexible.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Aug 19 2020 5:03pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 19 2020 5:55am
Doohickey wrote:
Jun 28 2020 4:24pm
I have a strange problem - today I did the improved cooling mod described on the OSF wiki (adding thermal compound and pads). I also extended the motor phase wires by about 8cm (one of the screws joining the wires wouldn't hold in anymore, plus I wanted to be able to take out the inner motor without disconnecting it..).
What size wire did you extend the motor wires with? The factory wires are about 2mm including insulation, so I guess the core is 1.5mm? Will 16 AWG be fine or do I need to go thicker? They are very solid feeling wires too, I wonder if there is any harm in using something more flexible.
The wires I used came off an ancient ATX computer power supply, so... "ancient computer power supply size". No idea what size exactly it was, but they looked about the same size as original. The problem I had was something other than my wire extension, and no issues with it since. (I haven't opened it to check for potential meltedness, but I also run mine limited to 350w). I also did it to be able to check / replace the gear more easily, since I do longer trips with it.

If I were to do it again i'd use some kind of connector, the mr30 or other xt60 style three pins ones look nice. With the direct soldered wires, if the motor falls off the bike while pulled out, it will rip the wire out.

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