New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 2:02pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 28 2021 10:19pm
beemac wrote:
Feb 27 2021 5:17am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 25 2021 3:50am
what is the chain line using that adapter, vs the stock 42T ?
Not sure yet - trying to find a decent alloy fsr frame to build up with this my spare motor. Am hoping it will be ok with the chainring on the inside to improve chainline but might rub on the case in lower gears I think. Will be matched with m5100 cassette 11-51T - so should go up the hills ok :)

FSR mountain bikes are challenging, the suspension pivots are usually in the way of the TSDZ2's torque anchor, and the BBs are often way oversize compared with the classic 68mm.
Yea I'm steering clear of anything carbon or post-2012 - sticking to things with 68 or 73mm BSA threaded BBs. I'm ok with making a bracket to connect to one of the pivot points - seems to be the way it's done generally.

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 2:05pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Feb 27 2021 6:12am
You can use the later style adaptors which have a proper seal rather than a rubber washer. We think it’s at this point that we get the majority of the problems with water ingress along the crank and into the motor as the crank flex’s quite a bit as the bearing is set quite a way into the motor.

We now fit a fully sealed bearing into the chain ring carrier where the seal sits. It has two purposes, to strengthen the crank up as it transfers loading on the crank to the large sprag bearing without the long leverage that normally is there and accounts for some of the breakages some report of the crank. Also by fitting a sealed bearing we stop a lot of the water getting through at that point. Works well.

You can buy 5 hole 110 bcd narrow wide chain rings down to 34T on EBay and thus don’t need the adaptor or if you have 104 chain rings about then the adaptors are as cheap as a chain ring. As to chain line, the offset moves out about 8mm but we have had no problems with the greater offset, it’s surprising how much a modern derailleur can push chains across.
I've got a range of offset chainrings - but is nice to be able to use some of the rings I have lying around hence the 104 spider...

On the seals for the bearing behind the spider - I thought you'd said in previous posts not to worry about seals there and use grease instead? Maybe I'm misremembering....

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 2:10pm

beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:02pm
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 28 2021 10:19pm
beemac wrote:
Feb 27 2021 5:17am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 25 2021 3:50am
what is the chain line using that adapter, vs the stock 42T ?
Not sure yet - trying to find a decent alloy fsr frame to build up with this my spare motor. Am hoping it will be ok with the chainring on the inside to improve chainline but might rub on the case in lower gears I think. Will be matched with m5100 cassette 11-51T - so should go up the hills ok :)

FSR mountain bikes are challenging, the suspension pivots are usually in the way of the TSDZ2's torque anchor, and the BBs are often way oversize compared with the classic 68mm.
Yea I'm steering clear of anything carbon or post-2012 - sticking to things with 68 or 73mm BSA threaded BBs. I'm ok with making a bracket to connect to one of the pivot points - seems to be the way it's done generally.
Although I do have a 2007 carbon fibre stumpjumper fsr s-works frame spare. The bb is too fat as you'd expect - but I have been looking at it wondering if I can machine anything off the bb without the frame falling apart as it's only 2mm or so too fat on the bottom. It's all aluminium and threaded for a standard bsa bb - but I can't work out how it's bonded to the rest of the frame. It looks to just have a thin layer of plastic around the bottom where I need to machine that doesn't look to be structural - but I really can't tell...

Anyone ever seen how these things are bonded?
Last edited by beemac on Mar 02 2021 2:21pm, edited 1 time in total.

Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Mar 02 2021 2:16pm

The stock chainline makes me want to puke as a bike mechanic. for now I think I am going to take a 10 speed cassette and remove the two largest gears until I can figure out something better

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 2:26pm

Manbeer wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:16pm
The stock chainline makes me want to puke as a bike mechanic. for now I think I am going to take a 10 speed cassette and remove the two largest gears until I can figure out something better
On my main bike (converted rockhopper '05 hardtail) I use two 'solid e-bike' 10mm offset chainrings; 50t/42t - 42t inside the spider, 50t outside. This allows me to shift with a standard front mech and I even had to file a tiny bit off the chainstay to stop the larger chainring rubbing on it so the line can't be much better really for chainring size...

https://www.eco-ebike.com/products/42t- ... lid-e-bike

https://www.eco-ebike.com/products/50t- ... chain-ring

Obviously not cheap - esp with duty/shipping from US to UK. There is a company in Italy that makes similar ones in red too.

Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Mar 02 2021 3:11pm

Cool, I'm familiar with the Italian one in 30 tooth but I didn't know there were larger ones . I suppose they are a bit expensive, but a normal race face or absolute black narrow wide is like 50 bucks anyway So for a little bit more the cost of admission isn't too steep. I was considering the 30 tooth as well and was worried I would lose too much top end. In the greater scheme of things, maybe if I were to get a 36 V motor and run the 30 T At 48 V that would work too
CE5B43A1-A459-4410-AD52-38F428AE27BC.jpeg
CE5B43A1-A459-4410-AD52-38F428AE27BC.jpeg (6.95 MiB) Viewed 637 times
For now I threw on an old 46t Ring on the outside rather than the stock chain guard Since I wasn't in love with the look of it and also I feel like this makes it look a bit more like a regular to prying eyes

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Mar 02 2021 3:32pm

beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:10pm

Although I do have a 2007 carbon fibre stumpjumper fsr s-works frame spare. The bb is too fat as you'd expect - but I have been looking at it wondering if I can machine anything off the bb without the frame falling apart as it's only 2mm or so too fat on the bottom. It's all aluminium and threaded for a standard bsa bb - but I can't work out how it's bonded to the rest of the frame. It looks to just have a thin layer of plastic around the bottom where I need to machine that doesn't look to be structural - but I really can't tell...

Anyone ever seen how these things are bonded?
Been there and done it, and don't bother, the carbon is bonded in as part of the mould and that 2mm fatness is actually hollow.
And when that repair is done, please just dont overlay carbon, there's a whole process of bevelling and getting the epoxy glue layer at an angle to the fibre to retain the strength of the carbon ( I used to repair carbon back in my younger days )
Attachments
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IMG_1715.JPG (2.15 MiB) Viewed 628 times

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Mar 02 2021 3:43pm

beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:05pm
On the seals for the bearing behind the spider - I thought you'd said in previous posts not to worry about seals there and use grease instead? Maybe I'm misremembering....
No, the main sprag bearing has an indented O ring to seal the spider to sprag bearing. We have been simply putting that original O ring around the outer bearing or a bead of instant gasket or simply waterproof grease if you buy the much cheaper bearing without the indent for the O ring.

To remove doubt on the Spider bearing, its a 6902RS. I think you could get a 10mm wide bearing there rather than the more normal 7mm wide, we had a few here of the 7mm as they often fit suspension frames I have had. We put bearing lock on the outer surface to stop the bearing moving through the spider and fill the void between the bearing and base of the crank with waterproof grease.

This photo shows the bearing before pushing it into the spider
Attachments
IMG_0279.JPG
IMG_0279.JPG (1.88 MiB) Viewed 626 times

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 3:44pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Mar 02 2021 3:32pm
beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:10pm

Although I do have a 2007 carbon fibre stumpjumper fsr s-works frame spare. The bb is too fat as you'd expect - but I have been looking at it wondering if I can machine anything off the bb without the frame falling apart as it's only 2mm or so too fat on the bottom. It's all aluminium and threaded for a standard bsa bb - but I can't work out how it's bonded to the rest of the frame. It looks to just have a thin layer of plastic around the bottom where I need to machine that doesn't look to be structural - but I really can't tell...

Anyone ever seen how these things are bonded?
Been there and done it, and don't bother, the carbon is bonded in as part of the mould and that 2mm fatness is actually hollow.
And when that repair is done, please just dont overlay carbon, there's a whole process of bevelling and getting the epoxy glue layer at an angle to the fibre to retain the strength of the carbon ( I used to repair carbon back in my younger days )
Ahhh thankyou - saved me a lot of work and subsequent heartache :)

I will continue my search for an old stumpjumper m5 frame ideally with the nice straight downtube so I can shift the motor forward a bit...

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 3:56pm

Manbeer wrote:
Mar 02 2021 3:11pm
Cool, I'm familiar with the Italian one in 30 tooth but I didn't know there were larger ones . I suppose they are a bit expensive, but a normal race face or absolute black narrow wide is like 50 bucks anyway So for a little bit more the cost of admission isn't too steep. I was considering the 30 tooth as well and was worried I would lose too much top end. In the greater scheme of things, maybe if I were to get a 36 V motor and run the 30 T At 48 V that would work tooCE5B43A1-A459-4410-AD52-38F428AE27BC.jpeg
For now I threw on an old 46t Ring on the outside rather than the stock chain guard Since I wasn't in love with the look of it and also I feel like this makes it look a bit more like a regular to prying eyes
Not got any experience running 36v motors both of mine are 48v - but I do have two DC boosters on order from banggood to try out - 1200w/1500w - wasn't something I'd considered but was mentioned by someone on the wireless thread -so I can choose whatever voltage I want and keep that voltage constant even when battery voltage drops assuming they can push the required current obv. Really looking forward to trying them out - a constant 58v would be amazing...

Bit grubby - but you can see the chainrings. Aside of the 'solid e-bike' decals the 50t hides the motor nicely!
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beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 02 2021 4:01pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Mar 02 2021 3:43pm
beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:05pm
On the seals for the bearing behind the spider - I thought you'd said in previous posts not to worry about seals there and use grease instead? Maybe I'm misremembering....
No, the main sprag bearing has an indented O ring to seal the spider to sprag bearing. We have been simply putting that original O ring around the outer bearing or a bead of instant gasket or simply waterproof grease if you buy the much cheaper bearing without the indent for the O ring.

To remove doubt on the Spider bearing, its a 6902RS. I think you could get a 10mm wide bearing there rather than the more normal 7mm wide, we had a few here of the 7mm as they often fit suspension frames I have had. We put bearing lock on the outer surface to stop the bearing moving through the spider and fill the void between the bearing and base of the crank with waterproof grease.

This photo shows the bearing before pushing it into the spider
Nice thanks yea that looks a bit more solid than a rubber washer :)
Last edited by beemac on Mar 02 2021 4:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

Doohickey   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Mar 02 2021 4:03pm

Manbeer wrote:
Mar 02 2021 2:16pm
The stock chainline makes me want to puke as a bike mechanic. for now I think I am going to take a 10 speed cassette and remove the two largest gears until I can figure out something better
I took my cassette apart and rearranged the cogs, putting two medium sized ones at the end and bringing two largest ones outwards - that gives me the full range, with bigger steps though, which was fine for me.

I had to drill out the rivets holding it together (no issues it seems), and the derailleur handles it okay too.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Mar 02 2021 4:48pm

beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 3:44pm
I will continue my search for an old stumpjumper m5 frame ideally with the nice straight downtube so I can shift the motor forward a bit...
Actually rotating the motor foward doesn't give any gains, the motor is an eliptical shape, as you rotate it foward the motor profile becomes broader. We have just accepted that its best directly below the BB. Anyway the Chain ring is nearly always bigger than the motor profile and will hit before the motor. You can see the problem here on this straight tube where I thought it would rotate further.
Attachments
IMG_0070.JPG
IMG_0070.JPG (2.38 MiB) Viewed 609 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Mar 03 2021 4:38pm

Has anyone experienced a high-pitched buzzing coming from the VLCD5 when under power? It stops when I stop pedalling.

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Mar 04 2021 10:20am

I just finished my TSDZ2 wireless remote with connection to brake sensors -- I am very proud of final result :-)

Here my TSDZ2 wireless remote, with a short cable (to connect to the brake sensors) with yellow Higo connector that is water prof:
Image

And now installed on my EBike:
Image

So the idea is to reuse the VLCD5 remote that is not needed anymore after installing our OpenSource firmware. The case was 3D printed with black PLA plastic and I used transparent silicone to make the wireless remote fully water prof. There is one CRC2032 battery that will work for at least 2 years and a small wireless board.

Board in place with battery under it (green wires). I blocked the brake wire with a small zip tie, so it will be hard to pull it to much up to damage:
Image

All wires soldered - the green board is the original from VLCD5 remote:
Image

Just enough space for the wires:
Image

Image

Done!! Added a bit of transparent silicone on the LED hole to make it water prof:
Image
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Mar 04 2021 2:20pm

That is awesome! Glad I have an extra remote kicking around too. Just getting around to trying at the motor in stock form and will soon be upgrading. so far aside from the stock chain ring and a few other little things I really like it. It's no beast, but it's a punchy little motor with a very natural feel

beemac   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Mar 04 2021 4:43pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Mar 02 2021 4:48pm
beemac wrote:
Mar 02 2021 3:44pm
I will continue my search for an old stumpjumper m5 frame ideally with the nice straight downtube so I can shift the motor forward a bit...
Actually rotating the motor foward doesn't give any gains, the motor is an eliptical shape, as you rotate it foward the motor profile becomes broader. We have just accepted that its best directly below the BB. Anyway the Chain ring is nearly always bigger than the motor profile and will hit before the motor. You can see the problem here on this straight tube where I thought it would rotate further.
Sure - but i think your photo does show some benefit, maybe not for clearance - but because the motor is rotated forward the chain is less likely rub against the motor case when in lower gears. More of an issue with smaller chainrings.... but I'll see what happens when I finally find a nice fsr frame at a sensible price. Is really not a great time to pick up bike frame bargains... crazy 2nd hand asking prices!

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Mar 04 2021 5:08pm

Where ever you have the motor, you have same problem, offset. We have got around that problem by fitting the front chainring gear changer and using it as a guide rather than to change the chainring. With the spread now available on the 10spd rear gear sets of 11 - 48 you only need one front chainring.

jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Mar 05 2021 11:32am

TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C.
by mbrusa » Mar 01 2021 6:23am

I start this new thread to share the new versions of TSDZ2 OSF.
In common they all have the same base firmware, v7 of mspider65 which derives from 20beta1, to which I have added other changes.

The most important news are:
Field weakening function that allows you to pedal at high cadence. Optimizations to the motor control, the torque sensor and the cadence sensor (from mspider65 - v7).
I added in "Power assist" mode, a very effective boost function, with only two parameters it is possible to modify the response curve of the assistance. Makes "Power assist" mode suitable for all uses.
I also added a new "Hybrid assist" mode, it is a combination of "Torque assist" and "Power assist" modes.
The result is excellent low cadence assistance typical of Torque mode and the extension of Power mode to high cadence.
For a complete list of new features, please read the changelog.txt files and manuals.

Version for VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18 with Java configurator:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... VLCD6-XH18

Version for KT-LCD3:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... 20.1C-LCD3

Version for 860C color display:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... 20.1C-860C

English manuals are translated with Google translate, if someone of good will wants to check and improve them there are editable odf files. Thank you.

Have a good time
Open source firmware v20.1C-VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18
Open source firmware v20.1C-LCD3
Open source firmware v20.1C-860C
Top
HughF 100 W

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jeff.page.rides   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Mar 05 2021 11:33am

For the past couple of months, I have been helping test this new version of firmware 20.1C for the 860C!
I have to say it's the best version of firmware I've ever used on the TSDZ2!
Last year mbrusa improved the firmware 20.1 for the LCD3 so it was much safer and better than before!
Then the last few months he was able to add the 860C and 850C displays to the 20.1C firmware and improved it for all the displays!
I want to publicly thank mbrusa for all his work getting his version of 20.1C working on all the displays. And working with me the last two years to make MAJOR improvements to his version 20.1C!
THANKS!
Jeff

dameri   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Mar 05 2021 11:38am

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Mar 05 2021 11:32am
TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C.
by mbrusa » Mar 01 2021 6:23am

I start this new thread to share the new versions of TSDZ2 OSF.
In common they all have the same base firmware, v7 of mspider65 which derives from 20beta1, to which I have added other changes.

The most important news are:
Field weakening function that allows you to pedal at high cadence. Optimizations to the motor control, the torque sensor and the cadence sensor (from mspider65 - v7).
I added in "Power assist" mode, a very effective boost function, with only two parameters it is possible to modify the response curve of the assistance. Makes "Power assist" mode suitable for all uses.
I also added a new "Hybrid assist" mode, it is a combination of "Torque assist" and "Power assist" modes.
The result is excellent low cadence assistance typical of Torque mode and the extension of Power mode to high cadence.
For a complete list of new features, please read the changelog.txt files and manuals.

Version for VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18 with Java configurator:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... VLCD6-XH18

Version for KT-LCD3:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... 20.1C-LCD3

Version for 860C color display:
https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smar ... 20.1C-860C

English manuals are translated with Google translate, if someone of good will wants to check and improve them there are editable odf files. Thank you.

Have a good time
Open source firmware v20.1C-VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18
Open source firmware v20.1C-LCD3
Open source firmware v20.1C-860C
Top
HughF 100 W

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Your links are not working. They are too short, stops before they are full directed.


Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Mar 05 2021 12:17pm

is it worth it to buy the kit for like 30 bucks from electrify or someone else As opposed to getting a few ST links that could potentially be duds? I seem to remember reading about how sometimes you have to buy a few as one or the other or may not work

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Uturn » Mar 05 2021 12:33pm

Manbeer wrote:
Mar 05 2021 12:17pm
worth it to buy the kit
of course it is. On the other hand, with your own ST link you can flash firmware updates as you like.

Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Mar 05 2021 3:40pm

I think the kit included an ST link, I was thinking that they wouldn't risk sending bad ones out so at least for 30 bucks I get one that I know will do the job rather than spending seven dollars here and there wasting time. Maybe I'm wrong or things have changed, but I recall there being an issue where some of the ST links didn't work and they recommended getting a couple tp try out

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