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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 05 2021 8:33pm
by shirk
Yes please post a thread on the full build. Great work.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 06 2021 7:03pm
by ebbsocalMTB
Hey folks, I'm new to the party here with not only the tsdz2 but also diy ebikes in general. I've started a build thread for my tsdz2 conversion... check it out here if you're interested viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111223

I'm currently just getting started on the best way to mount the motor to this boost, 27.5+ frame which has very short chainstays. These aren't issues that i didn't expect going in, so it's all good... I'm just working through the task and trying to hit the high points of doing a bit of everything to improve the overall fit.

One thing i noticed in doing my research before the kit arrived, is that there have been a few people that have clearanced the motor housing in order to get a bit of room back. Most notably, in the youtube video at the following link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS2OOLTGFU

here is a screenshot from that video.
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Here's another example of people grinding away at the housing to clear the Seat tube. Not the same thing, but same idea.
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In my case, I'm not looking to go crazy, but a few MM would for sure help. Here's the clearances I'm working with at the moment.
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I have 7.5mm of spacers on the drive side... IT appears that I could at least, put a chamfer on the bolting tab and get another 1mm back. I'd be over the moon if I could get that to 2-2.5mm with a combo of rotating the motor and potentially doing a bit of grinding. I guess I'm looking for any sort of comment or experience with this from those that are more knowledgeable then I.

Here's some images of the housing only for reference.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 06 2021 9:15pm
by ebbsocalMTB
well, I answered some of my own questions. I found the below image while searching a bit more before picking up the tools. eek, not all that much material there, about what I expected honestly, no real reason for them to over build (cast) that setion.
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I started with the lowest lying fruit... I just put a slight chamfer on the housing clamshell bolt. I took this down to the fastener as to not do anything yet that would be significantly past the point of no return.
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This effort allowed me to change from 7.5mm of spacers to 6mm of spacers. The housing is now barely touching the chainstay, so I may either take a smidgeon of material off, or add .2 - .5mm of spacers back in.
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Overall, not enough material coming off to go to the 68-73mm shell and run without hte 92-100mm adapter. I'm about 1-2mm short of being able to do that. Likely not going to be able to get there without facing the bb shell down.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 06 2021 11:39pm
by hetm4n
Is it possible to convert the coaster version to versions without a brake coaster? I have a coaster engine and I want to be able to freely turn the pedals backwards

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 07 2021 3:23am
by Waynemarlow
ebbsocalMTB wrote:
Apr 06 2021 9:15pm

Overall, not enough material coming off to go to the 68-73mm shell and run without hte 92-100mm adapter. I'm about 1-2mm short of being able to do that. Likely not going to be able to get there without facing the bb shell down.
You seem to be making a lot of work for yourself for very little gain. The rear stays are your limiting factor what ever you do, accept that you will need at least 1- 2 mm clearance, mount your motor and then deal with the chain line. You will be surprised at just how far modern derailleurs will pull across and as long as you are 1/3rd or even 1/4 the way across the rear group set you will be fine.

If you are worried about the offset of the drive side pedal, the human body adapts pretty well or you can fit a RH Shimano 6000 series pedal which has zero offset and the standard on the non drive side.

Summers coming, get the motor on and enjoy rather than make it an engineering experience 😀

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 07 2021 8:38am
by 2old
Looks like individual is in socal where the riding season never ends. If the problem is offset, just do what I did with my first BBS02 conversion and operate the rear with three gears 11-17-28 at the end of the cassette. It was all that was necessary with the motor and shifted fine. It was spaced 8-speed since the shifter and derailleur were only about $20 each at that time.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 07 2021 9:29am
by ebbsocalMTB
Waynemarlow wrote:
Apr 07 2021 3:23am

You seem to be making a lot of work for yourself for very little gain. The rear stays are your limiting factor what ever you do, accept that you will need at least 1- 2 mm clearance, mount your motor and then deal with the chain line. You will be surprised at just how far modern derailleurs will pull across and as long as you are 1/3rd or even 1/4 the way across the rear group set you will be fine.

If you are worried about the offset of the drive side pedal, the human body adapts pretty well or you can fit a RH Shimano 6000 series pedal which has zero offset and the standard on the non drive side.

Summers coming, get the motor on and enjoy rather than make it an engineering experience 😀
2old wrote:
Apr 07 2021 8:38am
Looks like individual is in socal where the riding season never ends. If the problem is offset, just do what I did with my first BBS02 conversion and operate the rear with three gears 11-17-28 at the end of the cassette. It was all that was necessary with the motor and shifted fine. It was spaced 8-speed since the shifter and derailleur were only about $20 each at that time.
Bingo. Fortunately for me the riding season lasts year round... I'm also lucky that I have 4 other bikes and a ktm 500 to split my time between. Also, double whammy, I am an engineer by trade so I can never leave well enough alone.

I did order this setup from eco-ebike with the bafang non-drive side crank. Right now, with the 100mm adapter and 6mm of spacers on the drive side, the cranks are within 5mm of equal on both sides. Definitely good enough for the gals I go with. I do agree that it is surprising how much the human body can adapt to the offset, but I do have some what finicky knees... which is mostly from riding 4-5 days a week on my other mountain bikes. The dirt bike doesn't help that either.

Regarding the chainline... you are definitely right. My other 3 mtb's are all running either eagle with a mix of axs and x01. The chainline on eagle is actually pretty deep in the cassette and in the largest rear cog, the eagle drivetrain cross chains quite a bit with no issue. I'm running a sram gx11 speed shifter and derailleur on this bike and it's a medium cage setup, so it won't be quite as friendly for cross chaining, but it'll still be damn good. I'm definitely already in the ballpark of what I would consider "not great but acceptable".

I may end up re-working this cassette down to a 7 speed to improve the issue even further if need be. I have a sunrace 11 speed I sniped locally which has the gears I would need in order to do that. Thanks much for the replies!

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 08 2021 10:02am
by Manbeer
I've been thinking for a while about how to pull off the lightweight minimalist build with torque sensor support on a hub. I'm pondering trying to use a tsdz2 controller standalone, If I could adapt it to run, say, a q100? I havent attempted OSF yet, But essentially what I need to know I guess is if a torque sensing bottom bracket like a thun or sempu should output a compatible signal, And if there is anyway to adjust the motor settings to account for the pole pairs of a hub

Technically I could run cycle analyst With a normal controller but I am trying to free up some of the handle bar real estate And wiring

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 08 2021 11:30am
by HrKlev
Wouldnt it be easier to use a KT controller with osf? I think they are supposed to support torque sensors...?

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 08 2021 2:26pm
by Manbeer
yes I suppose it would make more sense, I like the form factor of this control but perhaps I could use one of the integrated battery pack controllers rather than this. I wasn't aware that I could run a torque sensor directly with OSF But that's definitely the way to go if it's the case, Looking into it. Thank you

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 09 2021 10:30am
by Triketech
Wow, 338 pages.

I bought an early TSDZ2 36V, VLCD-5 direct from Tongsheng in 2017. It has the nylon primary gear and is well greased.
Secondary gears (10 Tooth Pinion/70 Tooth Spur gears) are pretty loud and add quite a bit of drag. Close inspection revealed that the Pressure Angles of the two gears are miles apart. The large seal also had excessive lip pressure from too tight of a spring; relaxed the spring but the majority of drag comes from the mismatched secondary gears.

After 500 miles, I swapped out the drive for a hub system and turned into a dust collector.

Have a +1 ride on the way, and looking at a mid drive. It is my understanding that Tongsheng has updated the Secondary gears from spur to helical. Is that correct?

Note that the primary gears are the motor to countershaft gears. Those aren't the gears making noise. Its the secondary set between the Countershaft and the Chainring side.

If they haven't cured the noise & drag I'll just go with a BBS02.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 09 2021 3:23pm
by Doohickey
Triketech wrote:
Apr 09 2021 10:30am
If they haven't cured the noise & drag I'll just go with a BBS02.
Maybe my TSDZ2 is somewhat noisy despite being a newer one with helical gears, but I've tested / cycled beside a few different BBS02s, and they are all much quieter.

The drag comes from the fact that when you turn the cranks without assistance on, you're turning almost everything: the main gear, the intermediate spur gear, and the blue gear - it's the blue gear that has the one way roller bearing for this. Not sure how the BBS02 works in this regard or if it has less drag(?).

[edit: I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that.. the main gear / chainring, and the pinion gear is all you're turning when the assist is off - the one-way roller that allows this is on the inside of the blue gear, so the shaft that's on the inside of the blue gear is turnining, not the gear itself..]

IMO it's a tradeoff: BBS02 is quiet, more reliable I think, and can put out more power for longer without overheating. TSDZ2 has torque sensing and open source firmware..

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 09 2021 3:37pm
by casainho
Doohickey wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:23pm
IMO it's a tradeoff: BBS02 is quiet, more reliable I think, and can put out more power for longer without overheating. TSDZ2 has torque sensing and open source firmware..
TSDZ2 is also smaller and lighter.

Small, light and with torque sensor, makes the best option for the ones building slick and light MTB / touring / gravel EBike. And with TSDZ2 wireless and connection to cycling GPS displays, makes the best option for a very good type of that EBikes.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 09 2021 3:53pm
by Wapous
Doohickey wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:23pm
The drag comes from the fact that when you turn the cranks without assistance on, you're turning almost everything: the main gear, the intermediate spur gear, and the blue gear - it's the blue gear that has the one way roller bearing for this. Not sure how the BBS02 works in this regard or if it has less drag(?).
No. Without assistance your are rotating the main gear and the pinion gear. That's all. The one way bearing do not engage the blue gear when you are without assistance. The one way bearing is active when the blue gear is activated by the motor.

https://youtu.be/EsMlBj6ogVQ

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 10 2021 6:54am
by Waynemarlow
And the sprag clutch in the bearing that the main gear sits on does what ?

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 10 2021 8:01am
by ilu
Waynemarlow wrote:
Apr 10 2021 6:54am
And the sprag clutch in the bearing that the main gear sits on does what ?
It allows the motor to run the gear and chainring without making the pedals turn.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 10 2021 8:44am
by Waynemarlow
And if the motor is stopped ?

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 10 2021 6:55pm
by ahagge
I just got pointed to this video yesterday - it might help to visualize how the TSDZ2 clutches work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsMlBj6ogVQ

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 11 2021 3:53am
by Waynemarlow
In reverse thinking with the motor off. The drive side pedals are connected directly through the torque sensor and then on to the non side by a shaft, which has 1 roller bearing on either side and is separated from the motor main gear by the sprag clutch.

The only drag we should get is the grease and roller bearing friction within the bearings and the two water seals along that main shaft. In practice though the springs holding the sprag clutch activating mechanism against the inner race, which is connected directly to the main shaft and the large volume of grease within that quite large diameter sprag clutch, is enough to ever slowly slightly rotate the main gear which can be felt at the pedals as a back ground notchiness ( main gear teeth rotating the blue gear ) the faster you pedal.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 9:20am
by Triketech
Doohickey wrote:
Apr 09 2021 3:23pm

Maybe my TSDZ2 is somewhat noisy despite being a newer one with helical gears, but I've tested / cycled beside a few different BBS02s, and they are all much quieter.
A little noise is expected but this seems a bit extreme. At 10 feet away its in the 52dB range. Rider needs earplugs.

Here is a video; the noise you hear is coming from the TSDZ2 mounted on the trike ahead.

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/Pow ... yce_Up.mp4

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 12:26pm
by Wapous
Here is a video; the noise you hear is coming from the TSDZ2 mounted on the trike ahead.

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/Pow ... yce_Up.mp4
Surely you don't like the TSDZ2 engine.
Firstly, there is no image plane on an assumed TSDZ2 engine.
Did you personally investigate the source of the noise before showing us this video?
There is noise and noise but this noise does not come from a TSDZ2 engine. Regardless of the make of the engine, immediate maintenance is required.
The next time I have a faulty muffler on my car I will complain about the noise.


In one of your post you write:
(10 Tooth Pinion/70 Tooth Spur gears)
In fact,
the spur pinion has 10 teeth and the main spur gear have 93 teeth.
the helical Pinion has 10 teeth and the helical main gear has 91 teeth.

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 1:06pm
by ebbsocalMTB
I got my TSDZ2 kit from Eco-ebike built up on my Santacruz Chameleon. I have a build thread at the following link in case you want to check out more details. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111223

I have a few issues I could use people's help with:
#1 - Temp threshold and overheating - I am still figuring the motor out and how it best likes to be utilized, but I was quite surprised how quickly I can hit thermal throttling pedaling on flat ground... it's especially bad if I'm traveling on an 1-2% incline steadily. I rode the bike to work this morning, and within about 4 miles of 1% grade, I hit the thermal limit and the temp sensor was dialing the power back. By the time I got to work, I was easily into 180 degrees. I basically pedaled the last 1.2 mile with the assist level on 2. It seems that the motor persistently gets hotter and hotter even if I'm humming along letting it pull 6-10amps and will hit 170-180 degrees fast. When this happens, I'm averaging about 20mph and going back and forth between 18-25mph. Granted, this is with 29x2.6 tires, so there is some rolling resistance that has to factor in. I knew there would be some thermal limitations to keep an eye on, but I guess I didn't expect to be running into it maintaining 20mph on flat ground. Ironically, on my first ride out on this thing yesterday, I did a few climbs that were 8-10% grade for a half mile and ran into no thermal issues.

#2 - Battery voltage vs battery meter & Safe cut-off. I am using a hailong shark based battery from pswpower. The cutoff voltage per their site is listed at 36.4. I have it setup in the firmware to cut off at 39v. I did a ride this last weekend that was 22 miles, 1,500' of climbing and the battery started at 54.4 when I started and was showing 47.8v more or less when I finished. The graphical battery indicator was showing completely empty and red at the 47.X volt point. I assume this is just a display issue and it's fine to run it down to 39v? I don't have the resistance set yet for the battery, in case that factors into this.

I ordered a heatsink plate from the silent thunder ordinance and some arctic silver mx4 so that I can hopefully improve on the thermal throttling that I'm experiencing. Other then the thermal throttling, I am really, really happy with this thing.

Photos from my first ride out.
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Motor mount using a bafang bracket
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Pretty happy with how clean the setup looks
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 7:44pm
by ebbsocalMTB
Alright... starting to transition from content with this motor to thinking I need to move it down the road quickly. Each ride, I keep trying to change how I ride the thing to keep the heat down, but it’s seemingly futile. On my ride home from work, 3 miles in, the motor was already 170+ and quickly approaching 180. Sometimes it seems to be like an out of control Diesel engine where it just keeps getting hotter and hotter no matter what I do... including turning the assist off and just pedaling. Then other times it will seem to lock in at 173-174 degrees and sit there no matter how much amperage it’s pulling or how much effort I’m putting in. I’ve tried riding it at assist level 3-20, and that doesn’t seem to play a huge factor.

So... what’s the most efficient way to ride this thing on flat ground? What amperage and engine RPM does this thing like to sit at to stay as cool as possible?

Here is a photo I took of the display next to my garmin info screen once it tapped out while on my way home from work.
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Right now, I’m going to give this thing a few more tries and then remove it from the bike. Quite frankly, it’s slowing me down as I can actually maintain 20-22mph on a road bike for. 60 minutes straight without much issue, I just end up sweaty as hell. This thing overheats about 15 minutes or 3 miles into any 20-25mph sustained section and then I have to shut it down and for the next 15 minutes I’m riding at 15mph. Ultimately, right now, if the trip is longer then 5 miles, I’m faster without the motor.

Is this just an ignorance is bliss thing because most people don’t have the temp sensor wired in? What gives? If this is normal for this motor I would expect this thread to be absolutely full of complaints and people that take these things off immediately.

The irony is that I bought this thing to mostly help with commuting... which so far, it sucks hard at. It’s better at doing the thing I don’t need help with and that’s riding steep dirt climbs. :confused:

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 8:06pm
by Manbeer
Weird, fwiw I don't have a temp sensor installed but have not had any issues with thermal throttling.
Granted, here its been low 60's on a nice day and i usually ride in the 3rd assist level. Plus, I am on 26x2.1's that weigh about 550g so less rotational mass. I weigh right around 160
With my setup being cadence limited to around 90 rpm cause i am on stock firmware and moderate pedaling, on the road, on a decent day it'll just crack 20mph overall for the ride. Yeah, i could pedal close to that but not on an MTB with risers for too long. Though a few years back when i was in better shape i did average 17.8 for a century ride on a MTB with 2.2" semi slicks. at 20mph avg the motor is barely warm to the touch. Flogging it off road, same thing. I am wondering if the rolling resistance of those tires is giving it a hard time. at the same cadence you wpuld probably be doing a good 5mph faster i would imagine.
IIrc ECO programs their controllers to 15a max whereas stock was 13 or something. Perhaps reducing the max current to the stock 13 would be a good place to start

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Posted: Apr 12 2021 8:38pm
by Blacklite
ebbsocalMTB wrote:
Apr 12 2021 7:44pm
Sometimes it seems to be like an out of control Diesel engine where it just keeps getting hotter and hotter no matter what I do... including turning the assist off and just pedaling.
Surely this means you have a fault in the temperature sensing?