How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

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StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 22 2016 2:53pm

From our great contributors Eric of Luna Cycle and Karl at electricbike-blog, it seems the BBSHD should run with an external controller fairly reliably at 40amps. I know some folks will say just get a Cyclone 3000, but the BBSHD vs. Cyclone 3000 is a whole different conversation. Please humor me and allow me to waste my money on this experiment. For reference, here are two great sources of running the BBSHD on an external controller:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/0 ... ble-death/
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x- ... bike-ever/

I already have a BBS02. I can upgrade just the motor and controller to the BBSHD for just $500 at Luna.
They also sell just the Cyclone controller for $50, and I already have a Cyclone throttle from another Cyclone kit. This controller is already conveniently tuned for 40amps

Can anyone help me out with the phase and hall wire connection?

Using this image from electricbike blog:
Image

Karl mentions in his post:

Lyen Controller -> BBSHD Motor:

HALL:
Yellow -> Grey
Green -> White
Blue -> Purple

PHASE:
Yellow -> Yellow
Green -> Blue
Blue -> Green


I'm guessing the green, yellow, and purple Anderson connectors are the phase wires?
Any guesses as to which are the hall wires in the above picture?

Any idea where are the hall and phase wires in the Cyclone controller:
Image

Thanks in advance!

** update 10/10/16 ** - I got it working. Jump down on this page for the details.
Last edited by StinkyGoalieGuy on Oct 11 2016 12:38am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 22 2016 3:09pm

Or better yet, can I run a BBSHD sensorless using a Castle Creations controller? I have a few of those extras lying around. If I did that, do I just leave the hall wires from the motor unconnected?

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Dogboy1200 » Jun 23 2016 9:17pm

Wow! Just what I wanted to see! Sorry I can't be of any help but if you get this figured out I will sure follow in your footsteps.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by wineboyrider » Jun 23 2016 9:47pm

Here's how to connect a BBS02 to a lyen controller.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=65806&hilit=mwkeefer
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Samd » Jun 23 2016 11:37pm

Dont use a non-FOC trapezoidal controller. The noise back through the drivetrain is what smashes the smallest drive pinions in moddrives.
Use a ~40a FOC sinusoid.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 24 2016 12:07pm

wineboyrider wrote:Here's how to connect a BBS02 to a lyen controller.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=65806&hilit=mwkeefer
Awesome, thanks! There's some good info in that link.

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jun 24 2016 12:12pm

Samd wrote:Dont use a non-FOC trapezoidal controller. The noise back through the drivetrain is what smashes the smallest drive pinions in moddrives.
Use a ~40a FOC sinusoid.
You got one you would recommend? I would prefer one that is not too big. Sounds like the Adappto Mini-e would be a good choice, but I haven't looked into it too much. I don't know if there is a good reliable channel to get them in the USA and what the user base looks like for support. The Sabvoton is available from LAebike and it sounds like the owner there is pretty knowledgable, but that thing is huge. The Grin Phaserunner has a nice small package and I'm sure there is great support for that one, but I don't see those available right now.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Oct 11 2016 12:36am

Quick update, thanks to EvolutionGTS, I got my BBSHD connected to an external controller.

Controller: Cyclone 3000 Bluetooth 60AMP/72 volt
http://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebik ... ontroller/

Here are the steps to hook it up.

1) Download the app from Cyclone Taiwan site:
Android: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/YYcontroller_0531.apk This is the one I'm using
IOS: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/Emotor.ipa I have not used this one.
The password is "12345678"

2) Remove the BBSHD controller following these instructions:


3) Here you can see the phase wires (thick green, blue, yellow wire) and the wires that go to the hall sensors, after it has been unplugged as explained in the above video:
phase wire BBSHD.jpg
Connecting the hall sensors, from the controller, you have this plug.
It's obvious which are the phase wires and which are the main power leads that will go to your battery. They are the thickest wires
Red - positive of your battery
Black - negative of your battery
Yellow - phase wire
Green - phase wire
Blue - phase wire
power_phase wire.jpg
power_phase wire.jpg (121.89 KiB) Viewed 10133 times
Connecting the phase wires on the controller to the BBSHD is easy, just match the colors. Yellow to yellow, green to green blue to blue.

4) Connecting the hall sensors from the motor to the controller, you have this plug. There is a label that says "hall sensor"
yellow/green stripe - power
black - ground
yellow - hall sensor
green - hall sensor
blue - hall sensor
hall sensor wire.jpg
hall sensor wire.jpg (115.95 KiB) Viewed 10133 times
The proper connection is:
Controller - BBSHD
yellow/green - red
black - black
yellow - gray
green - white
blue - blue

5) There is one red wire on this same connector as the hall sensor wires that says "power switch". You can wire that directly to the positive lead on your battery. You will need that to power up your controller.

6) Finally, you will need to wire up your throttle. From the controller, there is a group of wires labeled "throttle". It's also got a matching pigtail connector that you can connect to your wires on your throttle.
Red - power
black - ground
green - signal
thottle wire.jpg
thottle wire.jpg (110.19 KiB) Viewed 10133 times
I connected it to my "Oro" brand throttle from my old Cyclone 1200 watt kit. Connection is as follows:
Oro throttle - Controller
red - red
white - black
yellow - green

And that should do it. There are a bunch of other wires that you can also hook up, PAS, brake cut-out, etc. What I have detailed here are the bare minimum connections.

Here is a video showing the granularity of control using the Oro throttle:


As you can see the modulation is very good. The Bafang throttle was basically just an on/off switch.

So far, I'm only running it at 40amps, 52 volts. I plan to up the voltage when I build a 72 volt battery. I need to get more nickle strip material first.

I'll post up more updates when I have more time. Work is very busy right now.

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Samd   1.21 GW

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Samd » Oct 11 2016 12:47am

I wouldn't use that cheapsh|t Yuyang controller from Luna. It's as chunky as all hell on the signal. Those noobs are gonna burn your pinion real fast.
Bluetooth or not, it's not the harmonics you want. Despite what crazy Eric says about engineers being a dime a dozen, this engineer knows middrive harmonics.
Fit a sine wave with field orientation.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Oct 11 2016 12:52am

Samd wrote:I wouldn't use that cheapsh|t Yuyang controller from Luna. It's as chunky as all hell on the signal. Those noobs are gonna burn your pinion real fast.
Bluetooth or not, it's not the harmonics you want. Despite what crazy Eric says about engineers being a dime a dozen, this engineer knows middrive harmonics.
Fit a sine wave with field orientation.

That's the plan, Sam. That's the plan. I'll get there in time.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Samd » Oct 11 2016 12:58am

About ten years ago we found with hacking the aprilias that it was always the smallest pinion that failed to due drivetrain backlash. The more that you protect the drivetrain from incidences of backlash, the more miles you'll get between walks home.
That little motor has a little radius. You can soup it up. But don't ever expect it to take down a 7kw hub.

I have a youtube around from a few years back of hacking the controller. Neptronix did some too. It's as simple as finding the right hall wire combo on the five pin plug.
Kepler did a nice hack in with a CAV3 a year or two ago also.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that a 165mm rear shock can't deliver 220mm of rear swingarm travel." - Oprah Winfrey.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by robocam » Oct 11 2016 1:02am

Thank you so much for posting this! I want to run out and buy that controller!
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:Quick update, thanks to EvolutionGTS, I got my BBSHD connected to an external controller.

Controller: Cyclone 3000 Bluetooth 60AMP/72 volt
http://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebik ... ontroller/...

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Oct 11 2016 1:04am

robocam wrote:Thank you so much for posting this! I want to run out and buy that controller!
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:Quick update, thanks to EvolutionGTS, I got my BBSHD connected to an external controller.

Controller: Cyclone 3000 Bluetooth 60AMP/72 volt
http://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebik ... ontroller/...
Evolution GTS is going to start putting together kits if you can wait. It's supposed to be plug and play with the right connectors and it's a sine wave controller.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Dogboy1200 » Oct 11 2016 4:11pm

I just hooked up a Kelly KLS4812S sine wave controller to my BBSHD to test it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYerVHIM0Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=28buK_pKWtM
Got the Kelly because it runs in a "torque" mode not "speed" mode and has an auto identify feature that lets you wire it in any combination and run the auto identify function and the controller adapts to make it work.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by drew12345 » Oct 11 2016 4:26pm

StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:
robocam wrote:Thank you so much for posting this! I want to run out and buy that controller!
StinkyGoalieGuy wrote:Quick update, thanks to EvolutionGTS, I got my BBSHD connected to an external controller.

Controller: Cyclone 3000 Bluetooth 60AMP/72 volt
http://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebik ... ontroller/...
Evolution GTS is going to start putting together kits if you can wait. It's supposed to be plug and play with the right connectors and it's a sine wave controller.
He's already selling and has installation instructions. Looks plug and play.

Great work dogboy! It seems like a good project though.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Dogboy1200 » Oct 11 2016 5:07pm

Yeah, I haven't started wiring it up for real yet and I think I'm actually gonna put that controller with the cyclone kit I'm putting on my fat bike. Then just get that controller for the HD. I don't like that cyclone controller at all. It's a "speed" controller, 1/2 throttle is FULL power to 1/2 top speed. Not good for wheelies.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Samd » Oct 11 2016 7:04pm

EvolutionGTS is a clever guy and using the same sine controller supplier I am these days. It would make an excellent choice compared to the square Yuyang.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by fechter » Oct 11 2016 7:36pm

In researching gear failures, apparently on of the main causes is heat buildup in the teeth of plastic gears. This causes them to get soft and fail. If you run higher than stock power for a long period, this could happen. I think what we need are gears made of a better material.
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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by t3sla » Oct 11 2016 7:52pm

Gears are made of nylon. Best way is to have one long nylon rod then machine and cut down into individual gears (that way they are decently matched) for hub motors two grades of nylon are normally used -40° to 150° and a -10° to 180°, now due to the European market being able to ride around in freezing condition the one with the higher temperature rating is not used, but if you were to spec a hot rod motor it would be best to use a high temp variant. There are also some friends I know that manufacture dual composite gears, nylon inner with a metallic outer on the teeth, this helps with high on/of Nm impact of a throttle.

An el cheapo shitatrapoid controller has lots of vibration and slams power causing the teeth to prematurely fail.

Personally I only recommend Texas Instruments DSP for anything geared mid drive related, keep that Freescale crap for hubs.
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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by robocam » Oct 11 2016 10:26pm

Do you program the Kelly on your computer? I wonder if there are settings you can change so that it matches the stock controller in speed and also get rid of that throttle release delay.

I see you're running the Eclipse chainring. Are you running it with any spacers? Which rear cog gives you the straightest chainline? I can't decide between the Eclipse and the 130BCD spider so that I can run a 38T narrow wide chainring.
Dogboy1200 wrote:I just hooked up a Kelly KLS4812S sine wave controller to my BBSHD to test it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYerVHIM0Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=28buK_pKWtM
Got the Kelly because it runs in a "torque" mode not "speed" mode and has an auto identify feature that lets you wire it in any combination and run the auto identify function and the controller adapts to make it work.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by Dogboy1200 » Oct 12 2016 6:19am

Yes you can program the controller with the computer, its very easy. I bought the programing cable from Kelly and downloaded the driver for the cable and the program from their site. I'm not sure the throttle release delay is real. In my second video I reconnected the stock controller and it responded the same way. I don't think this "no wheel load condition" is an accurate depiction of how it will behave when under load. I attempted to match the settings of the original controller for my initial test but got different results. This controller is rated at 120A Max. but that's only when the boost button is activated. without the boost it puts out 50A. you can set the battery amps and the phase amps independent of each other. I set the battery amps at 60% and the phase amps at 100%. I thought this would give me .60*50=30 battery amps (equal to stock controller) and a 1.7:1 phase to battery amp ratio. From what I've read a 1:1 ratio gives very mild acceleration and a 3:1 ratio gives very aggressive acceleration. To test it I first ran the stock controller in 2 conditions both with the wheel raised. 1. no load on wheel 2. loading wheel with rear brake. Results for stock controller 1. 2.5A 2. 30A Results for Kelly controller 1. 2.5A 2. 40A. Anyway, I think for true results I would have to ride it, that means wire it up for real. I may or may not do that at this time. I'm putting together a Fat Bike with a Cyclone and may use this controller on that. As for the chain ring, yes it's the Luna Eclipse. The stock chain ring gave a great chain line with a straight chain in 5th of 9 gears. I got the eclipse and it had so much offset that you couldn't mount it cause it would hit the swing arm, so I got the spacer and the offset is about the same as the stock one. I think the Lekkie would be the best fit on my bike with no spacer needed but this is working for now. I did have problems with it intailly until I ground a little off the length of each tooth. Since that maybe 5 chain drops in 500 Off Road miles.
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by sather » Oct 12 2016 9:28am

Melting BBSHD Nylon Gears:
BBSHD Lyen external controller conversion:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/0 ... ble-death/
Karl melted a BBSHD nylon gear using 65 amps.

BBSHD Adapto controller conversion:
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x- ... bike-ever/
Eric talks of getting the BBSHD up to 300o F (149oC) with no harm to the plastic gear, yet I was able to melt three of them with my BBS02s (running 25amps/1400watts)??????

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by fechter » Oct 12 2016 3:12pm

Gear failure was a problem on the early MAC geared hub motors. They changed the gear material to the green stuff and it seems much better. I don't think it's nylon. There are a few better choices for gear material but DIY gear making is not something most of us could do.

Another idea was to fill the gear box with oil so the oil could cool the gear teeth. Good idea in theory, but sounds really messy in practice. I don't think you could easily seal it in a way that keeps oil on the gears but keeps it out of the motor and keeps it from dripping out.
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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by robocam » Oct 12 2016 5:07pm

I'm looking forward to hearing about your results.

That's the concern I have about the Luna Eclipse, that it will hit the chainstay. I'm wondering if I should just get their 130BCD spider instead and run a 38T chainring. With the stock chainring chainline, when you shift into the largest cog, does it still work perfectly with no dropping issues?

When your chain dropped, what were you doing that you think may have caused it? Could an upper chain guide have prevented it? I'm also considering one of those front derailleur-mounted chainguides (similar to those that mount to the seat tube, but I have a high direct mount). What's the bottom bracket shell width on this bike?
Dogboy1200 wrote:...The stock chain ring gave a great chain line with a straight chain in 5th of 9 gears. I got the eclipse and it had so much offset that you couldn't mount it cause it would hit the swing arm, so I got the spacer and the offset is about the same as the stock one. I think the Lekkie would be the best fit on my bike with no spacer needed but this is working for now. I did have problems with it intailly until I ground a little off the length of each tooth. Since that maybe 5 chain drops in 500 Off Road miles.

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Re: How to connect BBSHD to an external controller?

Post by robocam » Oct 12 2016 5:15pm

How similar is the BBSHD to the 01/02? I'm hoping it's a completely different beast. At least that's what the description on the Luna page leads me to believe.

My understanding of Karl's situation is that he just destroyed the gear with torque. He said it wasn't even warm yet, and he only went 1/4th of a mile.

"The drive unit had not even heated up yet so I did a speed run down the road and the BBSHD easily hit 35mph, GPS verified. The top speed was not really that exciting, but the wheelie popping constant power through the entire power zone was pretty exciting. The power felt like it just kept coming. I went about 1/4 mile then turned around to test the speed in the opposite direction. The drive easily got to 35mph for about a minute and then the nylon gear self-destructed and started grinding,"

It seems reasonable that much torque would shred a single plastic gear. The Cyclone has 3 gears sharing the load from the motor pinion, so that's probably why it can handle more torque. I've been wondering if the Cyclone could run with a single gear. I think it would make it sound better.
sather wrote:Melting BBSHD Nylon Gears:
BBSHD Lyen external controller conversion:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/0 ... ble-death/
Karl melted a BBSHD nylon gear using 65 amps.

BBSHD Adapto controller conversion:
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x- ... bike-ever/
Eric talks of getting the BBSHD up to 300o F (149oC) with no harm to the plastic gear, yet I was able to melt three of them with my BBS02s (running 25amps/1400watts)??????

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