The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 12 2016 6:31pm

I'm a little confused here. I thought the motor was going to mount on the front of the swing arm for the quibix frame. IE: What's the point of a jack shaft and all the other complication in this picture? The front chain ring ought to be straight up bike parts right and then the back wheel is left side drive from the motor?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Oct 12 2016 7:02pm

Two different kits for the Qulbix.

The first is a redesigned/upgraded version of the original Lightningrods kit adapted for the Qulbix. This will mate up to a custom multispeed rear hub.

The second kit (all brand new design) is mounted to the swingarm, single speed 219 chain, as you noted.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 12 2016 9:33pm

Thanks for 'splainin'. I wanted to get back in here earlier but was too busy. It's after 7:00 pm and I'm just now winding down.

I had been agonizing about how I wanted to make my mid drives. Every choice has advantages and disadvantages. I finally decided that since most people will buy hub motors anyway that I can offer several different mid drive layouts and still consider it focused enough. I'm happy to leave the hub motors to other people.

I think that the swingarm drive is going to be better for the Q140R whereas the chainwheel drive may be better for the Q76R. The 140 has a huge battery box which makes efficiency less of an issue. That same battery box makes it difficult to fit all of the reduction parts for a chainwheel drive. It pushes the reduction out to the point where it barely clears the pedal cranks. The chainwheel drive fits the Q76 great as does the swingarm drive.

Both of these prototypes are going to Mammalian. I have customers queuing up for the swingarm drive. I'm going to order a Q76 for myself. I want to build it with 19" street tires front and rear and make an electric super motard, something I've wanted for years. I may switch back and forth between the chainwheel and swingarm drives, just to really explore the advantages and disadvantages of both.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 19 2016 8:33pm

The swingarm mount for the Qulbix R76 and R140 is basically completed:

Image

The most challenging aspect of this mount was that the square swingarm center brace was about 2/3 the length of the motor. I didn't like the leverage that this gave the torque of the motor over the mount so I designed a cantilever made from 5/8" thick wall square tubing. The all-thread creates a solid connection between the 10 gauge formed sheet metal brackets and the square tube. The front of the motor wants to twist upward under high torque.

Image

The square center brace is slightly smaller than the side arms. I made a narrower second bracket of 10 gauge steel to add stiffness to the formed mount and to act as a spacer to get the mount off of the triangular "teeter totter" of the side arms.

Image

Image

Bottom view:

Image

Top view:

Image

I'll drop the motor in tomorrow. That will take all of five minutes. There isn't much left to do. I'll need to get the chain tensioner set up and then this one is completed. The bottom bracket drive is also close to completion.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by nutnspecial » Oct 31 2016 1:22am

LOOKIN AWESOME 8) 8)

If it were me I'd prob use flat stock for the upper part of the bracket instead of the square tube.
. . . besides the obvious? I'd personally just weld the bottom plate to the arm and forego the bolts and upper plate. That should be recommended to anyone with access to welders imo. And it's not like you can't undo a proper weld job if you ever would want to.


Anyway, I also come here to mention kV and group buy on motors.
Per weight I'm thinking your motor should be of very similar performance to my current bht's, which are now hard to come by. IDC anyway cuz the typical bht mounts have always been a pita anway- they take up too much room. What I do care about tho is kv. . .

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a lower kv be better suited at least for the single reduction? With a kv more similar to bht (30kv) we can get more power from volts (say up to 20s) while keeping a managable reduction. Otherwise you need >100a controller to get the most from the motor, right?

I'd participate in a group buy for a low kv version of this motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *hint *hint :wink:


Very excitin' stuff 8)

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 31 2016 9:08am

Thanks for the kind words. This is a new direction for me. I'm excited to get one of these bikes built and see how it runs.

Making a DIY kit that requires welding creates more limitations than you'd think. People with welders are probably also the type to take a setup like this and start hacking away at it to make it exactly what they want. I think it's best to offer the kit as a bolt on with no welding required and let the more advanced builders delete and modify parts as they will.

There are 48v and 60v versions of these motors. I haven't confirmed that the kv rating is lower on the 60v or that in fact that the windings are any different. Because these motors run from 36v to 88v the factory may just label the same motor differently. I'll sell loose motors and bits and pieces to DIY builders wanting to cherry pick. I just need advance notice to add the parts to my normal inventory.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 31 2016 9:44am

All of the major work is done on both of my Qulbix drives. The parts will go off to Mammalian to do the complete bike build. Hopefully he will continue to post here.

Image

Image
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by madin88 » Oct 31 2016 2:14pm

I like what you are doing here :)
Fantastic work!
the idea of mounting a motor to the swingarm of a qulbix i also had some time ago, but due to lack of time i was not able to put something together. i believe sourcing the parts (sprocket, chainring, hub etc) will take most of te time, right?

I love your idea of offering a bolt on kit. it keeps things simple and if someone likes, it can be welded later to the frame for more stiffness.

there is a chinese frame company which makes (in terms of performance like motor size, reduction) almost exactly the same as you do.

i started a thread here with some pics:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=83885

the 219chain with 1:10 reduction is such a great idea. it will eat every hub motor setup when it comes to climbing steep stuff and low speed torque efficiency.

Now as there are so many different "big block" motors around, i wonder which one is the best choice (aside from the kV)?

there are:

BHT big block
LR big block
LMX bike big block
Cyclone with same size (used on that eastgem bike)

a chart with technical dimensions would be great like:

stator width
stator diameter
lamination thickness
pole count
phase to phase resistance for a given kV
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Oct 31 2016 4:22pm

Nice Mike! If you want to try it on my Qulbix Q76 frame you have in your shop, you can test it for a while and get some marketing videos going if you'd like. Otherwise, I'll post up as I get things put together but it might be a slower process to achieve video gratification status!

Madin, I think there is a Motor chart started in the Wiki page somewhere. Mostly hub motors last I looked.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 31 2016 7:30pm

Mammalian04 wrote:Nice Mike! If you want to try it on my Qulbix Q76 frame you have in your shop, you can test it for a while and get some marketing videos going if you'd like.
I'm really starting to feel like I want to build a complete bike and shake it out before releasing the swingarm drive to customers. It seems simple enough but there are almost always teething problems with something new. I'd prefer to be the one dealing with those problems. I'll contact Qulbix and see how quickly I can get a rolling Q76. If the lead time is too long I'll take you up on shipping your bike here to the shop.

I'm glad that people are interested in my new project!
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Oct 31 2016 9:40pm

LightningRods wrote:
Mammalian04 wrote:Nice Mike! If you want to try it on my Qulbix Q76 frame you have in your shop, you can test it for a while and get some marketing videos going if you'd like.
I'm really starting to feel like I want to build a complete bike and shake it out before releasing the swingarm drive to customers. It seems simple enough but there are almost always teething problems with something new. I'd prefer to be the one dealing with those problems. I'll contact Qulbix and see how quickly I can get a rolling Q76. If the lead time is too long I'll take you up on shipping your bike here to the shop.

I'm glad that people are interested in my new project!
Hi Mike, I was just suggesting that you could use my red Q76 that you have at your shop now. You'd have to put parts on it and then take them off but it might be worth it if you wanted to test things out while waiting for your frame to arrive. The battery would be the harder thing to sort for now I suspect.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Oct 31 2016 9:51pm

Thanks. It would make more sense to buy a roller. I want one of these for myself.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Oct 31 2016 9:58pm

LightningRods wrote:Thanks. It would make more sense to buy a roller. I want one of these for myself.
I can't blame you. It looks AWESOME!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 01 2016 2:30am

LightningRods wrote:All of the major work is done on both of my Qulbix drives. The parts will go off to Mammalian to do the complete bike build. Hopefully he will continue to post here.

Image

Image
Great motor bracket!
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 04 2016 6:31pm

any new development on this bike?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Quokka » Nov 05 2016 1:07am

Looks like a really neat kit for the Q76R. Any details of cost of the custom hub, motor and other necessary bits?
Also, can this motor be ran on an adaptto max-e?
Qulbix Q76R+ QS205+MaxE

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 05 2016 12:17pm

I have been working steadily on both drives for the Qulbix. As with Matt, I'm down to the details now that take a lot of time. I'm spending quite a bit of time designing guards and chain guides.

Here is where the swingarm drive is right now:

Image

The bottom bracket drive is also nearly completed. I'm taking care of a lot of small details that I've never taken the time to finish on my regular bottom bracket drives. The secondary chain will be completely covered by an aluminum guard. The final drive chainwheel, a source of derailments and aggravation on most mid drives, will be a custom stainless steel part and will have guide fences, a DH roller tensioner/guide, and a tough urethane guide block to make derailments as close to impossible as I can make it. The Qulbix frame is the perfect installation for this drive. The battery box frame provides an extremely rigid mounting for the drive.

Here's the layout for the secondary chain pants ring and guard:
Image

Here's the detail layout for the final drive fence and guide block:
Image
The fence also provides a lug to mount a torque brace on other bikes. The brace is not needed on the Qulbix.

Here is a rendering of the 3D model for the urethane guide block. I'm having it 3D printed now. I'll pull a silicone mold from the printed pattern and then cast the production blocks in super tough high impact urethane.
Image

As far as the pricing goes, the swingarm drive should be very affordable. Under $750 is my expectation. The rear hub is going to be an expensive part for what it is. Between $300 and $400 as long as I'm having them hand made locally. If there is enough demand to have 100 or more made I can get the price way down. Small numbers are always expensive. The bottom bracket drive will be a lot more expensive for the drive because of it's complexity. It will work with an off the shelf rear hub so there is some potential savings there. It's odd to compete with yourself. I've decided to offer different types of mid drive solutions and let demand decide which direction dominates.

I'm looking into several sine wave controllers, the Adaptto being one of them. I think that the Midi-e would be about right for the Big Block.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Jazzman56 » Nov 12 2016 6:48pm

Any new updates? Looking forward to seeing the final products :) Brilliant work again Lightning Rods !
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Nov 12 2016 7:06pm

I am looking forward to it too. It looks like we are moving along at a similar pace, but we are in different stages.

Matt
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 12 2016 10:22pm

Hey Guys-

Thanks for checking in. It's the quiet time of year. The doldrums between Summer and Christmas/Hanukah/etc. For the first time in three years I'm completely caught up. It's kind of weird. There is a frame on it's way to my shop for a mid mount drive so I won't be bored for long. I'll have just about enough time to move the mountain of leaves that drop in my back yard every year.

About all that's left to do on the chainwheel drive is the urethane guide block for the chain guide. I had the pattern printed at a service bureau and was very excited when it arrived:

Image

It's supposed to be about 2" long. The bureau didn't read my written instructions and printed it 1/3 size. The new, full size one is on it's way.

The swingarm drive just needs to have it's sprocket guard/chain tensioner laser cut. The file is going in to the cutter on Monday and should be back in about 10 days. I'm modifying the billet wheel hub to move it to the left .15". That will make the chainline perfect. I'm also going to have the spoke holes enlarged for the heavy gauge spokes that the 19" moto rim wants.

Ten big blocks are shipping to me on Monday. I'll have ten sets of swingarm brackets made.

I'm excited to see how Matt's build turns out.

-Mike
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 13 2016 10:41pm

LightningRods wrote:Hey Guys-

Thanks for checking in. It's the quiet time of year. The doldrums between Summer and Christmas/Hanukah/etc. For the first time in three years I'm completely caught up. It's kind of weird. There is a frame on it's way to my shop for a mid mount drive so I won't be bored for long. I'll have just about enough time to move the mountain of leaves that drop in my back yard every year.

About all that's left to do on the chainwheel drive is the urethane guide block for the chain guide. I had the pattern printed at a service bureau and was very excited when it arrived:

Image

It's supposed to be about 2" long. The bureau didn't read my written instructions and printed it 1/3 size. The new, full size one is on it's way.

The swingarm drive just needs to have it's sprocket guard/chain tensioner laser cut. The file is going in to the cutter on Monday and should be back in about 10 days. I'm modifying the billet wheel hub to move it to the left .15". That will make the chainline perfect. I'm also going to have the spoke holes enlarged for the heavy gauge spokes that the 19" moto rim wants.

Ten big blocks are shipping to me on Monday. I'll have ten sets of swingarm brackets made.

I'm excited to see how Matt's build turns out.

-Mike
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 13 2016 11:04pm

Yeah or a scale model. Nothing to do but laugh at it. Hopefully the full size version will be here tomorrow and I can pull a mold off of it and make the finished casting.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 15 2016 12:39am

So the full size 3D printed chain guide did arrive today. The sizing was perfect this time. Here it is with it's baby brother.

Image

The urethane guide sits in between the two aluminum guide fences. It keeps the chain from being able to rise up over the teeth of the sprocket to derail. Just to make sure there is a block on the inside so that there is no place for the chain to go.

The sprockets are stainless steel, the "chainring bolts" are class 10.9 M8 and the freewheel is a UHD White Industries.

Image

The rear view. You can see the spring loaded DH roller guide/tensioner. This helps manage the chain during suspension compression and chain growth.

Image

The front view. This shows how the urethane block encloses the chain. I'll cast the finished guide blocks out of super tough high impact polyurethane that has the feel and density of tire rubber.

Image

There is nothing left to do for this mid drive but have the alloy pants ring and chain guard laser cut for this side. The swing arm drive will also be finished when this batch of parts comes back from the laser cutter.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 18 2016 4:09pm

why doesn't the plastic guard piece completely cover the two chains? I suppose covering half the chain is enough to keep it from jumping off, but completely covering it would keep it on 100%.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 19 2016 11:09am

The final drive chain is the one prone to coming off, particularly on FS bikes. If the secondary drive chain started to derail it would be at the bottom where it feeds on. Blocking on the top would just create a "too late" jam. The spring loaded DH roller tensioner also acts as a guide to keep the 219 chain in line coming onto the sprocket.

When the alloy pants ring is installed there will be a fence on either side of the 219 chain. The 1/2" sprocket and chain are right behind it. Even if it tried to derail it would have nowhere to go.
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