The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Jazzman56   100 mW

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Jazzman56 » Nov 28 2016 3:58am

Any more updates ?
The suspense is nerve-racking :)

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Nov 28 2016 10:36am

Hah! The last bits are in at the laser cutter. Last week was a holiday here in the US so everyone was useless. I'll be on them today asking where my parts are. All I need are the chain guards and both drives are completed.

I'm having a special ported case Big Block made for Electric God. The air circulation should allow for maximum power. He's going to run it with his giant Kelly scooter controller as well as the Adaptto Midi-e and Sabvoton.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by scorpionice » Dec 01 2016 5:36pm

Mike, can a small block belt drive fit the qulbix73 with this mid mount?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Dec 01 2016 7:06pm

You mean the 76R? With an 83mm bottom bracket mount it should fit. The problem, if there were one, would be clearance between the back of the large driven primary pulley and the battery box. I just went in and eyeballed the chain primary big block and it looks like the small block with belt drive should clear. I can do more careful measurements if someone is serious about doing that. The 140R will not work with the small block or belt drive. The battery box is too wide.

I just paid for the last laser cut parts for both Qulbix drives. The shop got fouled up with the employee who normally processes my orders leaving the company. The parts are scheduled to be done on the 7th.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by scorpionice » Dec 03 2016 11:40pm

Yes the 76R. I just thought it will be a light combination if the 76R with a small block fits. And then use a cassette at the back. Not too fast but a climber. ;)

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Dec 04 2016 12:01am

There's no real reason not to. The Qulbix frame isn't heavy like the Motoped. As long as you don't load it down with 40 lbs of batteries it should be fun to ride with 2000 watts. If you do decide to run 72V the small block is good for an easy 3000 watts.

The big block seems to be running fine in several bikes at around 5000 watts. When I rated it at 3000 watts I knew that was low. Now that the business is so full of carney barkers claiming ridiculous power outputs from tiny little motors I may have to get realistic.

The last pieces for both Qulbix mid drives are supposed to be done the middle of this coming week.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 04 2016 1:28am

LightningRods wrote:Hah! The last bits are in at the laser cutter. Last week was a holiday here in the US so everyone was useless. I'll be on them today asking where my parts are. All I need are the chain guards and both drives are completed.

I'm having a special ported case Big Block made for Electric God. The air circulation should allow for maximum power. He's going to run it with his giant Kelly scooter controller as well as the Adaptto Midi-e and Sabvoton.
The goal is to run this motor at 100 volts and add a fan to it. My existing big block which is all closed up is doing fine. I'm running it pretty hard and it gets to around 140-150F on a hot day. My hope is I will get another 1000+ watts out of the opened up version by keeping it cool. I doubt the closed up motor could do 5000 watts continuous without melting down. I think it's quite doable with active ventilation.

My Kelly controllers max out at 88 volts and I run them at 82 volts. The Sabvoton maxes out at 120 volts so I'll run it at a little less that that...IE 28S or 114 volts. The Sabvoton is good for about 9000 watts and the Kelly are good for 9.8kw, but I've never run them there. I have the controller and battery power to test the big block on at it's limits.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Dec 04 2016 2:25am

Hypothetical discussions are always a bit pointless. It's always best to run real world tests and know for sure.

If you're running 82 volts you would only be running about 61 amps @ 5000 watts. I've run the big block at 52V 70 amps without it getting hot. Cheekybloke is running around Sheffield with a closed case big block at just over 5000 watts without overheating. It will be interesting to see what kind of peak power we get with the ported case motor. At 100 volts with a ported case it should be at a whole new level.

I had a customer running the small block at 100V 50A two years ago. I didn't promote those numbers because I had visions of melted and exploded motors coming back at me. The harder you push your equipment, the shorter it's lifespan. That's true of internal combustion, it's true of electric motors.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 05 2016 11:45am

LightningRods wrote:Hypothetical discussions are always a bit pointless. It's always best to run real world tests and know for sure.

If you're running 82 volts you would only be running about 61 amps @ 5000 watts. I've run the big block at 52V 70 amps without it getting hot. Cheekybloke is running around Sheffield with a closed case big block at just over 5000 watts without overheating. It will be interesting to see what kind of peak power we get with the ported case motor. At 100 volts with a ported case it should be at a whole new level.

I had a customer running the small block at 100V 50A two years ago. I didn't promote those numbers because I had visions of melted and exploded motors coming back at me. The harder you push your equipment, the shorter it's lifespan. That's true of internal combustion, it's true of electric motors.
Interesting numbers. I wonder what his motor temps are? It makes me wonder if my shunt or watt meter are accurate. Well this motor will go on a moped, not my kick scooter so it will get a different shunt and watt meter. We'll see. According to my watt meter, I'm not running close to 5000 watts and motor temps peak at 150-160F.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Dec 05 2016 12:08pm

I have another customer, Andrew Jenkins, who plans to make a land speed record run in his velomobile equipped with a Big Block. He has a truly terrifying 400A battery that he plans to use. He'll be testing the motor at Swansea University's engineering department before setting the power limits. He needs a 120 second burst to reach the speed he's after. His motor is also equipped with a 10k thermistor so we'll get some good data on the operating temps.

Cheeky said that he wasn't seeing much over 140 degrees. It has been very cold in Sheffield lately so that may be contributing.

Two more days until Qulbix parts. I hope the laser shop actually hits their delivery date for a change.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 06 2016 2:23am

LightningRods wrote:I have another customer, Andrew Jenkins, who plans to make a land speed record run in his velomobile equipped with a Big Block. He has a truly terrifying 400A battery that he plans to use. He'll be testing the motor at Swansea University's engineering department before setting the power limits. He needs a 120 second burst to reach the speed he's after. His motor is also equipped with a 10k thermistor so we'll get some good data on the operating temps.

Cheeky said that he wasn't seeing much over 140 degrees. It has been very cold in Sheffield lately so that may be contributing.

Two more days until Qulbix parts. I hope the laser shop actually hits their delivery date for a change.
Is that 400 amps at 1C discharge or 400 amps at some higher discharge rate. If that's the case, then I have a 320 amp pack and a 325 amp pack and a 100 amp pack. No big deal when you take the mah of the pack and multiply by the C rate.

Right now it's "warming up" to 48F here during the day and cooling off to the mid 20's in the evenings. It makes for a chilly ride in the mornings and evenings, but my motor right now is getting to maybe 70F at most. I would really like to know what is different with some of these other set ups. Is my temperature meter really wrong? Is my shunt the wrong value or my watt meter defective? None of the above? I know this much, when my temp meter reads 150F and I touch the motor, it's uncomfortably hot...like 150F should be. I can always put a second temp meter on the outside of the motor case and see what that reads. My existing temp sensor is inside the windings where it is likely to read the most accurate motor temperature. I'm just saying something is hinky and I don't know what it is...me or other peoples reports of motor wattage. Hopefully a university will have expensive and solid test equipment that gives accurate readings. I depend on a Chinese watt meter and temp gauge. I have tried a couple of different watt meters and get similar results with both of them so...shrug.

The Qulbix frames are really solid. I just wish they didn't cost so much. I mean I can buy an entire electric scooter or decent grade bike for less than an incomplete Qulbix frame with no wheels or forks or brakes or anything on it.
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John Bozi   1 MW

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by John Bozi » Dec 06 2016 4:08am

ElectricGod wrote: I know this much, when my temp meter reads 150F and I touch the motor, it's uncomfortably hot...like 150F should be. I can always put a second temp meter on the outside of the motor case and see what that reads. My existing temp sensor is inside the windings where it is likely to read the most accurate motor temperature. I'm just saying something is hinky and I don't know what it is...me or other peoples reports of motor wattage.
It sounds like what I always report, that the outside is hotter than the inside reading to the CA. Usually around 10 degrees C more on the outside. Just like my temp probless hub where I add 40 degrees c to what I record on the outside. I just go by the ca add 30 degrees c should come out in the wash as still under 100 degrees C whatever.... not worth worrying about...

but precise recordings would surely be satisfying.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 06 2016 7:12pm

John Bozi wrote:
ElectricGod wrote: I know this much, when my temp meter reads 150F and I touch the motor, it's uncomfortably hot...like 150F should be. I can always put a second temp meter on the outside of the motor case and see what that reads. My existing temp sensor is inside the windings where it is likely to read the most accurate motor temperature. I'm just saying something is hinky and I don't know what it is...me or other peoples reports of motor wattage.
It sounds like what I always report, that the outside is hotter than the inside reading to the CA. Usually around 10 degrees C more on the outside. Just like my temp probless hub where I add 40 degrees c to what I record on the outside. I just go by the ca add 30 degrees c should come out in the wash as still under 100 degrees C whatever.... not worth worrying about...

but precise recordings would surely be satisfying.
Typical transformer wire insulation is good to 150C so of you think of 150C or 300F which is pretty hot, as your maximum temp numbers then running a motor at 100C or 212F is doable and fairly safe. I try to stay well under those numbers so that a spike in load doesn't in a minutes time push me into a meltdown...which is all it would take.

Inside temps should be hotter than outside temps. Heat radiates outwards from the stator to the motor can, not inwards. The heat source is the windings around the stator teeth which is where I have my temp sensor. I'm not monitoring can temperatures since that's always going to be cooler than the motor winding. Are you sure your temp sensors are working correctly?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by John Bozi » Dec 06 2016 9:29pm

ElectricGod wrote:Are you sure your temp sensors are working correctl?
as sure as you I thought I already said. I am not sure at all.

Note, before riding temperature of CA / inside motor is exactly ambient.

So whatever the drift of readings happen once things heat up.

In a nutshell I trust the IF gun readings of the outside more than the inside / CA readings. so if CA says 50 degrees C outside IF gun says about 60 C so if I take a wild guess that the outside is more accurate and the inside must be hotter than the outside therefore its a bit like hub motor temps which are out by about 30c..... so its still under 100c...

anyways repeating myself and none of this has to do with the mid drive raptor. :roll:

PM if u have accurate / more info on this.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by izeman » Dec 07 2016 8:22am

you should test your temp sensor at ambient, and then put it in boiling water and see if it reads 100C. then you can be sure.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 07 2016 6:37pm

izeman wrote:you should test your temp sensor at ambient, and then put it in boiling water and see if it reads 100C. then you can be sure.
Good idea except the temp sensor is buried inside our motors. Can I just pour boiling water into my motor instead? LOL
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 07 2016 6:43pm

John Bozi wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:Are you sure your temp sensors are working correctl?
as sure as you I thought I already said. I am not sure at all.

Note, before riding temperature of CA / inside motor is exactly ambient.

So whatever the drift of readings happen once things heat up.

In a nutshell I trust the IF gun readings of the outside more than the inside / CA readings. so if CA says 50 degrees C outside IF gun says about 60 C so if I take a wild guess that the outside is more accurate and the inside must be hotter than the outside therefore its a bit like hub motor temps which are out by about 30c..... so its still under 100c...

anyways repeating myself and none of this has to do with the mid drive raptor. :roll:

PM if u have accurate / more info on this.
This sounds like a bad temp sensor to me. If you have 2 temp sensors and they read the same at full rest and complete cool down, then that's a baseline that can be worked from. If you then run the motor for a while and warm it up, both temp guaes should still read pretty close to the same. The inside sensor should be hotter than a can sensor, but I have no idea by how much. My new big block will be opened up so it will have an imbedded temp sensor and I can also laze through one of the holes to check internal temps. That ought to be proof positive that the temp sensor is working correctly. Maybe I need a second temp sensor embedded in the motor...just in case.

I don't know about your temp sensor, but there's about 6 feet of wire between the sensor and my meter. I don't remember which way it works, but the resistance of the sensor increases or decreases with temperature change. I've got a 50/50 chance of being right...lets say ambient is 10k and 200F is 1 ohm. I'm making those numbers up. The last time I played with a temp sensor, I wasn't really paying attention to the temps vs resistance relationship With my 6 feet of wire to the meter, I'm adding wire resistance to the measurement which means I always read low...assuming what I said about temperature vs resistance is correct. If the relationship was opposite, then I would always read hotter than I am actually running because of the wire resistance. I'll have to mount one of these little meters I use right to the motor so wire length is minimal and see what that reads. I'm sure I can wedge the sensor in someplace where wind doesn't get to it and its on the can of the motor.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by izeman » Dec 10 2016 10:06am

ElectricGod wrote:
izeman wrote:you should test your temp sensor at ambient, and then put it in boiling water and see if it reads 100C. then you can be sure.
Good idea except the temp sensor is buried inside our motors. Can I just pour boiling water into my motor instead? LOL
Can you? I don't know ;)
The idea would be to take a spare temp sensor of the same type and test THAT one. That will tell you if the CA reports correct temps for what it measures.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 11 2016 12:49am

izeman wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:
izeman wrote:you should test your temp sensor at ambient, and then put it in boiling water and see if it reads 100C. then you can be sure.
Good idea except the temp sensor is buried inside our motors. Can I just pour boiling water into my motor instead? LOL
Can you? I don't know ;)
The idea would be to take a spare temp sensor of the same type and test THAT one. That will tell you if the CA reports correct temps for what it measures.
Brushless motors don't have exposed connections in them and phase wires are all insulated so there's little chance you would short out he motor. IE: It would run under water. Water would create rust possibly on stator parts or possibly get in the bearings, but I think short term, that would be about it.

True...that would prove the CA or temp guage is working and therefore the temp sensor would be the other reason for the odd readings, but that's the suspicious item anyway.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Dec 13 2016 4:51pm

I have the ported Big Block motor cases back from the machine shop. They turned out great. The output side still has a lot of meat left in the cover so it should be strong enough for mounting and power transmission. These ported cases combined with a shaft driven cooling fan should provide a nice power bump.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by John Bozi » Dec 13 2016 7:27pm

Interesting idea venting a mid drive...

First idea is not needed by most people running the big block.
Second idea is you can now gear your wheels at even faster speeds or run more power if you ever managed to be able to run that much power through the drivetrain to start.

Stop counting for guys who are not running the traditional mid drive, and now let's get some data on the differences of vented and not.

Cooler none the less.

And wondering about the differences of hub motor venting and mid drive venting. You will probably be dousing your motor in a lot more grunge from front wheel kick up compared to a higher mounted axle, but who knows... The best and first scooter build is waiting.

I won't be getting me hole saw bits in a hurry.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 15 2016 9:14pm

LightningRods wrote:I have the ported Big Block motor cases back from the machine shop. They turned out great. The output side still has a lot of meat left in the cover so it should be strong enough for mounting and power transmission. These ported cases combined with a shaft driven cooling fan should provide a nice power bump.

Image
KEWL!!! Can't wait!

I think a shroud around the motor to block dirt and spray from the front wheel would protect the vented big block from most grunge in a mid-drive. Air is kind enough to flow around things and to make 90 degree turns so forcing air into the motor wont be a problem. Also, you don't care about smooth air flow. In fact, for cooling purposes turbulent air is better. If the shroud was a mere 1/4" wider than the motor, that allows for a lot of forced air flow. Even if you closed up all the holes but one on each end plate and pushed air through the motor, that's a lot of air flow.

What do we call this? Maybe the "blown big block". Or the B3 for short.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 15 2016 10:21pm

Initially I intend to run the motor at 82 volts off of this battery pack which is 32,000mah at 20C max discharge or 20S2P at 16,000mah per 10C pack. It fits the battery bay in the moped pretty well. I built it some time ago back when these LIPO packs were uber cheap. I'm glad I spent all my spare change getting them and a load of 10,000mah packs because I got them at super low prices. The Sabvoton controller I intend to use will run at 118 volts or 28S. Once I have the moped the B3 is going in set up and running well at 82 volts, then I will build up a 28S LION pack. My end goal is 60+mph on level ground on a 50cc moped all while being able to pull wheelies and accelerating faster than cars. At 82 volts, the moped is already going to be fast and 30-40 pounds lighter than my blue scooter. Should be fun!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 05 2017 12:30pm

any news on this build?
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Jan 05 2017 12:53pm

Both drives are completed. I'm having three rear wheel hubs machined right now. Two of them have pre-sold. I made ten swingarm mount drives and have five left. I made five of the bottom bracket drives and have the parts left to build two.

I'd love to buy a Q76R and have a Qulbix of my own. I have three other projects going on at the same time that required buying bikes so I'm stretched thin. I may wait until Spring is a bit closer, clear the other projects and then get one. It's going to be a fun bike and ideal for riding in my area.

The ported Big Block should also be done this week. It's going to be interesting to see how much more power we can push through it with some case ventilation.
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