The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 27 2016 6:44pm

If the pivot-to-rear axle is 31-ish inches, and the swingarm-mounted LR motor has a center at about 4 inches away from the pivot...(not to mention how much heavier a QS is compared to the LR BB), I think the swingarm mount will feel pretty damn good on the road.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Aug 27 2016 6:47pm

jpgey wrote:
tikivic wrote:If anyone is interested, I am currently working on a Cyclone drive on a Q76.
Sorry to say that reduction by the BB is not in agreement with this topic, you confuse the potatoes with tomatoes. Thats why recumpence had to start a new topic.
Actually, I think one of Mike's Raptors is crank drive. So, his Cyclone post is relevent. Plus, any non-hub Raptor build is welcome in this thread or mine. :D

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by jpgey » Aug 27 2016 6:56pm

recumpence wrote:
jpgey wrote:
tikivic wrote:If anyone is interested, I am currently working on a Cyclone drive on a Q76.
Sorry to say that reduction by the BB is not in agreement with this topic, you confuse the potatoes with tomatoes. Thats why recumpence had to start a new topic.
Actually, I think one of Mike's Raptors is crank drive. So, his Cyclone post is relevent. Plus, any non-hub Raptor build is welcome in this thread or mine. :D

Matt
Ok, sorry, :oops:

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27 2016 6:57pm

spinningmagnets wrote:If the pivot-to-rear axle is 31-ish inches, and the swingarm-mounted LR motor has a center at about 4 inches away from the pivot...(not to mention how much heavier a QS is compared to the LR BB), I think the swingarm mount will feel pretty damn good on the road.
I guess there is nothing wrong with vacillating when you don't even have CAD drawings yet. I'm trying to come up with a fresh approach here. "Outside of the box" as Matt says. I'll keep grinding on this. I have been eyeballing the swingarm today for clean ways to attach the motor.

When you said "good on the road" you didn't mean that the suspension action would suck off road, did you? :D
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 27 2016 7:12pm

Ha ha! No, good on both. The guys who go for a Raptor frame usually like doing jumps, and they seem to really like it a LOT, even with a huge bowling ball out at the end of the swingarm (sucking down massive amps). Any improvement moving mass and weight to the center is good, but going from 30-inches away to 4 inches away should be very significant.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 27 2016 7:41pm

And from 25 lbs down to a svelte 11 lbs. I'm liking this swingarm mount idea more and more. It will make transition to the light side easier for the hub addicts.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by nutnspecial » Aug 28 2016 8:43am

Exactly. When building OR buying, I think people want simple, easy, functional, etc.

No torque on susp pivots, no susp squat or jack on torque, no extra pulleys or chain growth. Way easier to upkeep/ maintain too.

And having 11lbs that close to the pivot is probably equal to a pound @ the axle, or I bet even less.

What power have you run / are you planning to run thru the big block on the direct drive version LR?

Is this the ~70kV version?

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Aug 28 2016 9:17am

Yeah, I think you were right about the benefits of swingarm mounting in this case. Being close to the pivot reduces the unsprung weight to the point where the chain geometry is more of an issue. Like Spinningmagnets said, certainly no one contemplating a 25 lb hub motor out on the end of the swingarm is going to be much worried by this little bit of weight.

With a direct connection between the motor and rear sprocket regenerative braking will be possible. Pedaling with no motor would be difficult because of having to turn the motor, but this isn't that kind of bike.

I've run 70 amps @ 53V continuous through the Big Block. 3710 watts. It will do 5000 watts @ 72V no problem. I don't know what it's limit is, especially if we're talking "burst" watts like so many people like to do. A single Astro 3220 will make more power and the huge hub motors will make more power. 5000+ watts is still a LOT of power on a bicycle. This should be a fun bike.

The Big Block kV is 62.5 rpm/volt.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 08 2016 2:42pm

Can you post pictures of development please?
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 09 2016 12:18am

As I said, I'm working on two different approaches for the Qulbix frames. First the swingarm mount.

Image

I've done all of the measuring and planning. The final CAD cut file is done. I made the paper printout above to check the fit of everything. It all looks good. The upper bracket will be .625" square tubing, .065" thick. There will be six M8 bolts holding the lower bracket to the square tubing. The sheet metal will be 10 gauge steel. All of this bolts around the reinforcing box in the center of the swingarm. It should be extremely stout.

The main work remaining is designing the 165mm billet rear hub. It will have two disc brake flanges on the left, the inner one of them being for a laser cut #219 sprocket designed specifically to fit that flange. Because of the width of the 165mm dropout I have a lot of room to work with on the left while maintaining 135mm DH spacing between the spoke flanges.

The other mid drive is essentially done. I'll assemble it and take some photos so that we have something to talk about while the swingarm mount is in production. This drive is basically a tricked out version of my typical BB drive. It has #219 primary and secondary drive with 15:1 overall reduction. About 1/2 of my normal drive. It has a final drive guide with a DH roller tensioner on the bottom. The upper sheets bolt directly to the battery box so no flexing is possible under even the highest loads. White Industries HD and SHD freewheels will be available at extra cost. This is the Big Block drive on steroids.

I'm doing a complete cargo bike conversion for a customer right now and that is slowing me down some. They've been waiting patiently for quite a while so it has to be completed. This bike will have a BeamTS torque sensing throttle. Since a mom uses this bike to haul her young child around I'm also equipping it with e-brakes, a 3 position power switch, and a toggle kill switch.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 09 2016 9:06am

Is the Madsen for Shirley "Cha Cha" Muldowney?

Mother to small child: "behave, or I'll let nana Shirley babysit you"..."NOOO, mommy NOOO...not nana Shirley! She makes me ride with her on her bicycle"

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 09 2016 9:14am

Hah! No.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by crossbreak » Sep 18 2016 8:55pm

+1 for the swingarm mount and the 19" moped rim. Nice project, now i'm waiting keen to see a your custom hub. I think you could even modify a 142mm x 12mm through axle hub by adding a bolt-on flange with its own bearing, that bolts on the existing disc flange. so you get this order: hub -> chainwheel adapter -> flange/spacer with extra bearing -> brake disc

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 18 2016 9:47pm

I'm going to make a 165mm wide 6160 billet hub with sealed bearings. It will have two flanges on the left, one for the disc brake rotor and a second for a 96T #219 sprocket made from stainless steel. The spoke flange spacing will be standard 135mm mountain bike. For this first hub I'm going to have a freewheel thread on the right side for pedal power only. There is plenty of room for a free hub and full cassette on the right. I'll offer that eventually but it will require an inside thread for the free hub ratchet ring. I want to get this swingarm mount rolling!

The laser cut brackets are already in production. I plan to send the drawing for the rear hub to my machinist tomorrow. I hope to have all of this together before the end of the month.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by crossbreak » Sep 19 2016 2:53am

nice! So the sprocket flange is larger than the disc flange, surely a much better way.

with a chain length of the madsen, i think it you could even make practical use of a 14-gear cassette :mrgreen:

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 19 2016 9:40am

crossbreak wrote:nice! So the sprocket flange is larger than the disc flange, surely a much better way.

with a chain length of the madsen, i think it you could even make practical use of a 14-gear cassette :mrgreen:
Very observant! But no, the diameters of the sprocket and disc flanges are the same. The spoke flanges have to be larger than either in order to lace the wheel. How does the sprocket get past the disc flange? How are the bolts installed on the sprocket? You'll see in about a week.

Doing development work like this on top of building the existing drives is working two jobs for me. I'll start work on the free hub version once I see that everything works on this freewheel version.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Sep 19 2016 11:17am

LightningRods wrote:
crossbreak wrote:nice! So the sprocket flange is larger than the disc flange, surely a much better way.

with a chain length of the madsen, i think it you could even make practical use of a 14-gear cassette :mrgreen:
Very observant! But no, the diameters of the sprocket and disc flanges are the same. The spoke flanges have to be larger than either in order to lace the wheel. How does the sprocket get past the disc flange? How are the bolts installed on the sprocket? You'll see in about a week.

Doing development work like this on top of building the existing drives is working two jobs for me. I'll start work on the free hub version once I see that everything works on this freewheel version.
My guess is the star-shaped flange for the six screws is the same diameter for both sprocket and brake disc, but since it's shaped like a star the sprocket can fit the through the flange and then be rotated slightly to line up with its own holes and then the disc brake goes on. Imagine two 6 point stars back to back. The star in back is still visible if rotated 20 degrees or so. I believe that is the solution to this. Both flanges can be identical but rotationally offset to provide visibility and access to the rear flange.
Last edited by recumpence on Sep 19 2016 11:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 19 2016 11:28am

You're close enough to be declared winner on this. If you imagine a star cut by a round mill bit then you have it.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 22 2016 4:43pm

My machinist just sent me a photo of the 165mm hub fresh off of the lathe. It's turned from 6061 billet aluminum. Next step is to do the indexed mill work and bore the center for the axle and bearings. The axle will be lathe cut from 4140 hardened chrome moly. I plan to hard anodize the production hubs in black.

Image

I should have the finished part this week. The laser cut brackets are in production now.
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Mammalian04 » Sep 22 2016 9:36pm

Progress! I like it!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 23 2016 12:03am

The Qulbix 165mm rear hub on the vertical milling machine getting the spoke holes drilled into it's flanges. I should have the finished hub tomorrow. All that's left is machining the chrome moly axle.

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 23 2016 3:30pm

Many talk, few actually make something. Especially something innovative...

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by recumpence » Sep 23 2016 4:20pm

Woh, $500 hub? :mrgreen:
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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by Alex07 » Sep 23 2016 5:16pm

bullet proof hub '!

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Re: The BEST and FIRST Qulbix Raptor mid-drive build!

Post by LightningRods » Sep 23 2016 5:32pm

recumpence wrote:Woh, $500 hub? :mrgreen:
For you, $495. :D

I don't know what it's going to cost to make batches of these. This first one is going to hurt. I'd like to be able to sell these in the $250 range.

I've spent my entire life making things. I do talk about things that I don't end up making, but typically it gets made.

I hope this hub is bullet proof! Bomb proof even! The sprocket will be .135" stainless steel. These parts are stronger than many motorcycle parts. We should be good to go.

This just texted to me by my machinist:

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