200amp HV ESC group buy for cheap!

liveforphysics

liveforphysics

100 TW
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
14,539
Location
Manhattan Beach, CA, USA
So, Castle creations still wont sell me a 200amp SHV, even when I offered a kilo-buck apiece.

So, I'm currently negotiating with this company called Danlions. They are a China place that makes RC gear.

Here is there website:

http://danlions.com/index.html

They make a 200amp HV ESC that is a serious unit. 8 big caps, 4 big 10awg wires for power in, and 6 big 10awg wires for power out. It looks like they just stacked a pair of there 100amp HV ESC on top of each other and maybe do a master/slave setup to control them. I actually have no idea though, I've never held one or taken one apart.

Anyways, they say that the caps are the only thing limiting them to 45v, and that the rest of the device is 60v capable. Easy enough to swap caps on something. Perticularly when we normally are upgrading the caps on the castle units anyway.

I'm trying to swing a deal with them, but they want to sell them in a minimum lot of 10. It looks like something around $250 per unit, but we aren't solid on anything yet, and I'm hassleing them to sell me a sample for a reasonable price.

I really have no idea how much interest there would be from you guys. I know it's a far cry from the 90v of the castle SHV200, but it's not vapor-ware, and it's 1/3-1/4th the price.

Here is a page that shows the 100amp and 200amp ESC line I'm talking about:

http://danlions.com/esc/index2.html

If I were to front the cash to buy 10 of them and ship them over here, would anyone be interested in buying some of the extra 6 units that I wont be needing?

Also, they make a battery that they claim is pretty badass. But they want a minimum purchase of 50packs... Again, I would be willing to front the cash if there was enough interest in them. I'm still working on getting pricing from them, but if the spec sheet is remotely accurate, these are pretty hot batteries.

Here is the spec sheet:

http://danlions.com/battery/file/30C-5000mah-data.pdf


I personally have loads of good LiPo all ready, and I'm mainly interested in the 200amp HV controllers. Is anybody else interested in making a group buy work?

Best Wishes,
-Luke
 
Ironically, while reading that thread, I found a picture of the 200amp Danlion unit. Some guy runs it in a boat.

a2268348-224-200A%20HV%20ESC%




I would love to run the scorpian stuff. I had no idea they are going to make a SHV controller, and 16s would be a very welcome boost over 12s. I read through the whole rest of that thread, and I still never found anything about prices for the SHV series. They did a fantastic job showing the pictures and making us all drool (mush like castle did with the SHV200), now lets see if they can do the real magic trick and get a product available for sale. :) I think it said maybe end of March? That sounds good to me. Looks like it would be a great choice for a mate to CNCguy's fantastic motors.

Seeing that makes me not nearly as interested in buying 10 of the lower voltage 200amp danlion units. Thank you for saving me from that sort of hassle of mailing stuff. I hate mailing stuff.

-Luke
 
I don't get why it's so hard to squeeze demos out of these vendors hands, even if you pay the retail price. I guess some business practices I will never understand.

Although, now that I think of it, if you were afraid of someone independently testing your product without any monetary risk, then I can see why they would not want to sell it to you. :evil:
 
So why won't castle sell you the SHV200? They are soo sweet, just outrageously priced. You can even use them with hall throttle out of the box and get an optional true current sensor. They list a 1-10 price on their site. Also if you contact Danlions I would be interested to know what is adjustable thought the USB interface.
 
Everyone and their dog has been trying to buy the SHV200 for maybe a year or so. They keep giving a soft release date, then pushing it back. It seems like the classic hype building vaporware, but I guess a few people do have them?

If I can get a pair of the scorpian SHV300amp units, I will be good to go. They mentioned a release at the end of March. Hopefully they don't keep pushing that date back over and over... If they are smart, they will undercut the pricing of the castle SHV200 unit by a large enough amount that people just forget about the entire castle SHV vapor line-up.

I might be the only one, but I'm personally just not that impressed by the castle controllers that I've used. I think the HV110 is a lot weaker and lower quality controller than the Hacker controller clone (Turnigy 100HV) that hobby city sells for less than half the money. When it's all said and done, I could really care less who's name is on the controller, I just want it to perform and contain its magic smoke.
 
Well that sounds like castle. I remember waiting for over a year for the Mamba Monster. I ended up getting the mamba max for my truck and it wasn't for another 6 or so months that they decided to finally release the Monster. Sounds like the same situation. Don't wait around for Castle, you'll just end up waiting way too long.

I am planing on using the Turnigy 100hv for my next big project but I might have to do an upgrade later to 200 amp range. I am just sort of in limbo while I decide everything else but the motor and controller... :|

Any idea what those 200amp guys are going to run?
 
i can get the Hobby Wing Platinum 120A Hv (180A burst) 5-12s in singapore IIRC for less than USD 200
http://www.hobbywing.com/english/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=440

anyone using this esc?
 
This is what the guts look like on the hobby city 100a unit:

controllerproclargeqq3.jpg


fetslargehv4.jpg



This other unit appears to have 3 caps rather than two, and may have other differences? Definately appears to be the same manufacture.
 
Also, way back in the day, that controller was sold as the "OEM RC, Platninum Pentium" Then it was sold with no stickers for a while, and then they called it hobbycity's own brand, Turnigy. Now it's evidently been updated to use a faster processer for better sync control with larger motors. Sounds like a good thing to me.
 
From reading on RC groups the pre 3.1 version ones had a lot of problem and now they are at version 4. I think it is great they continue to improve the design. Thanks for the great pictures. I hope they had some heat paste between those fets and the sink!
 
On scorpions website, I found the 12s 130amp version listed at $259, which is likely full MSRP.

http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/speed_controllers/12s_lipo_opto/12S-Com130A-Opto/

Doesn't look like it's worth buying over the hobbycity unit IMO. But, the moment they release that 300a 16s unit, tha will be worth buying, no matter the cost.
 
I ran the piss out of the early versions and the late versions. All of them are still running and perform great as long as you can supply adquate battery to keep the voltage up.

The FETs sink onto one of those heat sink pads that then sinks to the aluminum. When you have a bunch of chips a various heights that all need to sink to the same flat surface, you have to run something soft between them to compensate for the variations in the mounted height of the devices. I'm not personally a fan of that, but the things stay very cool if you are running them correctly, and I guess that means it doing it's job well enough. :)
 
I was told by Castle just a week ago that the SHV controller project is pretty much abandoned. I think they are trying to trim the fat. With the economy the way it is..you can't blame them. Also, this ESC looks the same as the danlions one and is for sale in quantities of 1...but the problem with the chinese ESC's is more in the software than the hardware. Fletcher's current limit board would probably help the situation a LOT.

http://www.elemodel.com/shopen/html/product_1445.html

Oh...I'm also talking with Mr. Schulze about retrofitting his 3-400A esc for electric bike use. If we do a group order of several units then he would have much more incentive to get this design ready for EV's. If you're interested in this, send him an email to let him know he has a market.

http://www.schulze-elektronik-gmbh.de/prs23_d.htm
 
Now that I have been looking it seem that everyone but castle has a HV 200amp ESC Check it out!

JetiSPIN200541.jpg


http://www.hobby-lobby.com/spin_200_amp ... 2_prd1.htm

The Jeti controllers have built in logging too. That's pretty cool.
 
That's the controller I'm using now, it sucks :x

For RC airplanes it wouldn't have problems..but for EV's with low resistance battery and motor this thing is too harsh.
 
Hi Luke,

liveforphysics said:
Anyways, they say that the caps are the only thing limiting them to 45v, and that the rest of the device is 60v capable. Easy enough to swap caps on something. Particularly when we normally are upgrading the caps on the castle units anyway.
Click to expand...

Hopefully we'll be using Richard's interface which includes extra caps (currently being tested):
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8160
Fechter's Throttle Interface for RC controllers

OK, since there seemed to be a need for such a thing and there does not appear to be any commercially available units, I designed a throttle interface for RC controllers. This allows you to use a regular bike throttle with a controller made for radio control.

This will work with both a standard hall effect or 5k resistor throttle.

It has an adjustable current limiter based on the Allegro ACS754 bidirectional hall current sensor. The current limit will adjust from near zero to whatever the maximum current of the Allegro sensor is. They have 100 and 150 amp versions in stock at Digikey. If you don't want to use the current limiting feature, it can be left out, but I think it is essential for proper operation on a bike.

There is a tie-in for a battery LVC and brake switches to override the throttle and kill output.

There is a built-in BEC circuit with 100v maximum input voltage.

There is a provision for additional main capacitors to supplement the controller's stock units.
Click to expand...

liveforphysics said:
I'm mainly interested in the 200amp HV controllers. Is anybody else interested in making a group buy work?

Best Wishes,
-Luke
Click to expand...

Quite a few RC esc's have a difficult time maintaining synch. The Castle are excellent in this respect.

You could also assemble your own Castle HV160 (or HV240 with liquid cooling) using the procedure Matt used here (scroll down to 8/28/08):
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/shumaker/e-cumbent2.htm
I spoke with Castle Creations about this, at length a number of times and I decided to go with another of their controllers designed for RC boat use. It is the Hydr HV240. That ESC is designed for 240 amps if liquid cooled or (according to Castle Creations) 160 amps without liquid cooling. Perfect!
So, I ordered one. Once the new controller arrived I read the instructions. This new controller uses different programming than the HV110 airplane controller. There are too many differences to discuss here. But, suffice it to say, this new Hydra ESC is not going to be ideal for this application. Hmm, what to do? After staring at the Hydra for a while, I came up with an idea.........

I noticed the Hydra has the same Logic board as the HV110 and uses the same FET boards. However, the HV110 uses only 3 FET boards, while the Hydra uses 4 FET boards. I called Castle Creations and asked them if the HV110 logic board would snap onto the Hydra FET bank. They said absolutely! So, I merely unplugged the FET board from one of my blown HV110s and plugged it onto the Hydra. Perfect!...

You can see the two controllers and the differences between the two. I effectively built an HV160 controller.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for the info MitchJi. I will take a look at those.

I'm kinda in a spot where I feel like if I'm going to throw out the cash, I want to get something that will let me run some higher voltages, and I would love to get something that I only need to buy a pair of one time. I love the idea of the scorpion 300a SHV, but I'm not big on waiting for things that could be vaporware. I think since I have massive cooling, these motors would really perform great at +16s, and I think the setup would all stay alive if I had a controller that could handle it.

One of you guys here who is a wizz with the electronics should build a serious +150v sensorless 500amp controller for E-bikes. I know there would be hobby guys, like the giant hydro racers and giant 3D plane guys that would pay a fortune for a product like that, and it would also be great for us E-bike guys :)
 
Great pictures of that controller. Interesting that the mosfets they're using aren't anything special, just pretty ordinary spec 60V, 12A ones with a pretty average Rdson of 9.4 mohms. The standard power board in that picture has 48 fets arranged as three banks of 16, with 8 conducting for each phase at any one time. This gives a 60V, 96A peak motor current per phase rating, with an Rdson of 1.175 mohms.

It should be possible to make a really bullet proof controller by swapping out the surface mount mosfet board and building a discrete power sub-assembly with some beefier TO220 package fets fitted to a heatsink. 24 IRFB4110 fets would give a power sub-assembly that would be capable of delivering 400A peak per phase at 100V, with an effective Rdson of 1.125 mohms. Pretty easy to do and might well be worth experimenting with.

I wonder if one of these companies would be prepared to supply just the controller board?

Jeremy
 
It couldn't just be as easy as swapping out that fet board with an external unit though right? I thought they has to observe the back EMF and phase current to keep the motor synch'd to the drive? Wouldn't that require a bunch of extra design and fooling around?
 
I just sent this as a PM to another forum member:

It looks like it could be that easy, at least for that Sentilon controller, as it looks like the FET drivers are on the main board. The FET gate drive signals, together with the phase feedback signals, just seem to connect to the controller board via the nine pads on the right hand side. These connections look to be six sets of gate drives (three for the high side, three for the low side) plus the three motor phase connections. The voltage of the unit could be increased up to the max the new FETs can take by just using a couple of resistors per phase to reduce the phase feedback voltage to what it was. Better still, it might be possible to just change the value of the existing potential divider resistors on the controller board, or maybe just add an additional series resistor in each phase feedback line.

The only snag I can see would be with gate capacitance and the load this places on the gate drivers. One problem with the really good high voltage, high current, low Rdson FETs is that they seem to have a high gate capacitance, up around 9620pF per gate for the IRFB4110s. By comparison, the gate capacitance for the IRF7855s that are used as standard on that controller is just 1560pF per gate. Even allowing for driving fewer devices it's still going to load up the driver a bit, as the overall gate capacitance per FET set would go up from 12,480pF to 38,480pF.

I suppose the critical question is, "does this matter?" It may be that the gate drivers on that Sentilon controller are able to drive the increased load OK - I can't make out the part number for the three gate driver chips on the right hand side of the main controller board. The best way to answer the question might be to just try it and see!

Jeremy
 
Very cool idea guys! With a lot of the controllers we use I always had wished we could just have a logic board and a power board, that way it could be easily upgraded or repaired. Does anyone know how well the castle creation firmware is looked down? It seems like we could do a little bit of hacking and make some modification to the firmware that could benefit us! For example there industrial HV110 can accept 0-4v throttle range and has an optional true current sense.

Heck look at the Sony PSP. It has a huge list of hacker who break sony's newest firmware every couple of months. It could be done, we just need the brains.
 
Somebody needs to kidnap Ottmar from Cafe Electric.

I think that's the only way you'll get a controller out of him now.

What the heck happened to the Zilla?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Capasitor Info. how to stop the Ripple
Replies
21
Views
4,536
RomeoEG
R
D
How to build an Electric skateboard tutorial *free version*
2 3 4
Replies
82
Views
119,288
SirDuckington
S
battman
Barron Greig's Homebrew MAX11081 Based BMS
Replies
1
Views
2,198
Punx0r
P
oofnik
Mongoose DX project
5 6 7 8 9
Replies
208
Views
35,041
dontsendbubbamail
dontsendbubbamail
Reid Welch
"Extreme MY1018" archival, closed out
Replies
11
Views
15,728
GIGATT
G
Back
Top