Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 01 2019 7:08am

I think what they mean is the belt is not optimal for track racers(or just regular bikes). They use human power to propel themselves, and much of this (low)power they generate goes into belt. We generally create around 150-250W when using regular bikes. But our bikes are 4-6kW so things here are totally different.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ebikeguy123 » Apr 01 2019 8:49pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:53pm
n2mb wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:45pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:06pm
n2mb wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:02pm


I don't think they have regen. I bought one, paid full price ($525) and it doesn't have regen. Also, very little increase in power over stock. Stock was 77 amps, X controller is 83 amps. It is slightly quieter.

It wasn't worth the work to remove it and send it back. If I had more time, maybe. But definitely wouldn't upgrade again.
When did you order? The 2nd batch didn't have regen, but the page that links to clearly states:
The latest edition with regen braking
The page said that when I ordered last year too....
Hmm, in that case, you definitely have a bone to pick with Luna. I would make em send one with regen. Otherwise, that would be straight up false advertising, fraud even. I just tried using the Internet Archive to look back in time, but unfortunately, they didn't archive the X controller page (they did archive the Sur Ron Parts page, however).

But I recall looking before and it did not state that it had regen. It didn't state that it didn't have regen either - which would have been the only right thing to do since the prior batch did...
Im looking at buying the X controller from luna. Can people that have tried the other controllers like the ASI or the first gen of the X controller share the differences in performance? Ive read the previous posts and im sure the answers are in there somewhere.. but for some one less technical... whats the short simple answer? .. pros and cons? Whats the best value? Is it worth upgrading battery? if you upgrade battery.... what are the limits of the motor? Whats the best upgrade that you can do and still have a reliable motor? Has anybody built a 21700 pack? .. and if so.. what would you recommend for a BMS? Best voltage? 72 or 92v?

Has anyone thought about a sur ron like design but with the motor installed at the pivot point to allow for a longer battery case and a wider trailing arm to allow for a wider tire to make use of more power and have the charger on board? I saw the post with the taller battery case... that was cool... but would prefer the weight lower in the bike for better handling and looks. Im thinking of building a frame to try this. Any advice? Im looking at using the BOSCH 10.5 kW motor. How much power is enough or usable? ive seen 16 kW peek motors talked about.... at what point is it overkill? In the bush with X controller it seems like more than enough power with Fox front and rear suspension and saint M820 brakes with vented metal pads... Has anyone tried the below bikes and can compare to the sur ron? Does anyone know what motor the RevX 018 / Mrazek is using? looks pretty small in size for peek 16kW. Anyone tried adding capacitors to the mix for better take off and capturing regen to extend battery life?

Has anyone looked at building a pack with https://www.maxwell.com/

Tesla bought Maxwell.

Is it possible to get better range and power without adding a lot more weight and size and not overheat batter.. controller and motor? Im in the tropics and need reliability in 40 c temps.

I like the http://www.electricrt.com .... but didnt like how the regen is operated. Is there a 4000 or 8000 ASI that has regen like the RevX or like the Sur Ron X controller?

Regen on the RevX is interesting... throttle when turned forward engages regen.

The vid for the RevX is hilarious. Reminds me of the soup nazi on Seinfeld. https://www.facebook.com/bob.mrazek/vid ... 817464784/

Thank u in advance for any answers to my questions and sorry if they have already been answered in previous posts. Im just looking for the short simple answers that are less technical.. looking for what people have experienced riding moded sur rons and similar bikes...

Would be great to have a comparison chart for all the potential upgrades... and comparison chart for similar bikes in the market.

What if there was a race set up for all the moded sur rons and similar bikes? A track that was built specifically to take advantage of the unique attributes of light electric dirt bikes?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 01 2019 8:53pm

Allex wrote:
Apr 01 2019 7:08am
I think what they mean is the belt is not optimal for track racers(or just regular bikes). They use human power to propel themselves, and much of this (low)power they generate goes into belt. We generally create around 150-250W when using regular bikes. But our bikes are 4-6kW so things here are totally different.
I've dyno'd a ton of bikes back to back between chain driven and belt driven, and belts always dyno a few HP higher than chains, and the lead get bigger as the wheel speeds get higher.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 02 2019 8:11am

ebikeguy123 wrote:
Apr 01 2019 8:49pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:53pm
n2mb wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:45pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:06pm


When did you order? The 2nd batch didn't have regen, but the page that links to clearly states:

The page said that when I ordered last year too....
Hmm, in that case, you definitely have a bone to pick with Luna. I would make em send one with regen. Otherwise, that would be straight up false advertising, fraud even. I just tried using the Internet Archive to look back in time, but unfortunately, they didn't archive the X controller page (they did archive the Sur Ron Parts page, however).

But I recall looking before and it did not state that it had regen. It didn't state that it didn't have regen either - which would have been the only right thing to do since the prior batch did...
Im looking at buying the X controller from luna. Can people that have tried the other controllers like the ASI or the first gen of the X controller share the differences in performance? Ive read the previous posts and im sure the answers are in there somewhere.. but for some one less technical... whats the short simple answer? .. pros and cons? Whats the best value? Is it worth upgrading battery? if you upgrade battery.... what are the limits of the motor? Whats the best upgrade that you can do and still have a reliable motor? Has anybody built a 21700 pack? .. and if so.. what would you recommend for a BMS? Best voltage? 72 or 92v?

Has anyone thought about a sur ron like design but with the motor installed at the pivot point to allow for a longer battery case and a wider trailing arm to allow for a wider tire to make use of more power and have the charger on board? I saw the post with the taller battery case... that was cool... but would prefer the weight lower in the bike for better handling and looks. Im thinking of building a frame to try this. Any advice? Im looking at using the BOSCH 10.5 kW motor. How much power is enough or usable? ive seen 16 kW peek motors talked about.... at what point is it overkill? In the bush with X controller it seems like more than enough power with Fox front and rear suspension and saint M820 brakes with vented metal pads... Has anyone tried the below bikes and can compare to the sur ron? Does anyone know what motor the RevX 018 / Mrazek is using? looks pretty small in size for peek 16kW. Anyone tried adding capacitors to the mix for better take off and capturing regen to extend battery life?

Has anyone looked at building a pack with https://www.maxwell.com/

Tesla bought Maxwell.

Is it possible to get better range and power without adding a lot more weight and size and not overheat batter.. controller and motor? Im in the tropics and need reliability in 40 c temps.

I like the http://www.electricrt.com .... but didnt like how the regen is operated. Is there a 4000 or 8000 ASI that has regen like the RevX or like the Sur Ron X controller?

Regen on the RevX is interesting... throttle when turned forward engages regen.

The vid for the RevX is hilarious. Reminds me of the soup nazi on Seinfeld. https://www.facebook.com/bob.mrazek/vid ... 817464784/

Thank u in advance for any answers to my questions and sorry if they have already been answered in previous posts. Im just looking for the short simple answers that are less technical.. looking for what people have experienced riding moded sur rons and similar bikes...

Would be great to have a comparison chart for all the potential upgrades... and comparison chart for similar bikes in the market.

What if there was a race set up for all the moded sur rons and similar bikes? A track that was built specifically to take advantage of the unique attributes of light electric dirt bikes?
The rolling forward throttle on the left side works great for variable regen and almost completely takes over for the brakes. I pretty much only touch my brakes to turn on my brake light. The throttle off style regen on the x controller won't let you coast or change how powerful the regen is on the fly. I suppose you could always flip the switch back to EP mode if you wanted to coast, but, at that point, might as well have a regen button or a way to control variable regen. You can reach out to ERT about how you want the regen to be set up.

With the factory battery, the amps will be increased to 85A. That's pretty much on the edge of what the factory battery can handle. My top speed went from 42mph to 47mph. Overall acceleration improved as well.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ebikeguy123 » Apr 02 2019 1:42pm

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 02 2019 8:11am
ebikeguy123 wrote:
Apr 01 2019 8:49pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:53pm
n2mb wrote:
Mar 31 2019 5:45pm


The page said that when I ordered last year too....
Hmm, in that case, you definitely have a bone to pick with Luna. I would make em send one with regen. Otherwise, that would be straight up false advertising, fraud even. I just tried using the Internet Archive to look back in time, but unfortunately, they didn't archive the X controller page (they did archive the Sur Ron Parts page, however).

But I recall looking before and it did not state that it had regen. It didn't state that it didn't have regen either - which would have been the only right thing to do since the prior batch did...
Im looking at buying the X controller from luna. Can people that have tried the other controllers like the ASI or the first gen of the X controller share the differences in performance? Ive read the previous posts and im sure the answers are in there somewhere.. but for some one less technical... whats the short simple answer? .. pros and cons? Whats the best value? Is it worth upgrading battery? if you upgrade battery.... what are the limits of the motor? Whats the best upgrade that you can do and still have a reliable motor? Has anybody built a 21700 pack? .. and if so.. what would you recommend for a BMS? Best voltage? 72 or 92v?

Has anyone thought about a sur ron like design but with the motor installed at the pivot point to allow for a longer battery case and a wider trailing arm to allow for a wider tire to make use of more power and have the charger on board? I saw the post with the taller battery case... that was cool... but would prefer the weight lower in the bike for better handling and looks. Im thinking of building a frame to try this. Any advice? Im looking at using the BOSCH 10.5 kW motor. How much power is enough or usable? ive seen 16 kW peek motors talked about.... at what point is it overkill? In the bush with X controller it seems like more than enough power with Fox front and rear suspension and saint M820 brakes with vented metal pads... Has anyone tried the below bikes and can compare to the sur ron? Does anyone know what motor the RevX 018 / Mrazek is using? looks pretty small in size for peek 16kW. Anyone tried adding capacitors to the mix for better take off and capturing regen to extend battery life?

Has anyone looked at building a pack with https://www.maxwell.com/

Tesla bought Maxwell.

Is it possible to get better range and power without adding a lot more weight and size and not overheat batter.. controller and motor? Im in the tropics and need reliability in 40 c temps.

I like the http://www.electricrt.com .... but didnt like how the regen is operated. Is there a 4000 or 8000 ASI that has regen like the RevX or like the Sur Ron X controller?

Regen on the RevX is interesting... throttle when turned forward engages regen.

The vid for the RevX is hilarious. Reminds me of the soup nazi on Seinfeld. https://www.facebook.com/bob.mrazek/vid ... 817464784/

Thank u in advance for any answers to my questions and sorry if they have already been answered in previous posts. Im just looking for the short simple answers that are less technical.. looking for what people have experienced riding moded sur rons and similar bikes...

Would be great to have a comparison chart for all the potential upgrades... and comparison chart for similar bikes in the market.

What if there was a race set up for all the moded sur rons and similar bikes? A track that was built specifically to take advantage of the unique attributes of light electric dirt bikes?
The rolling forward throttle on the left side works great for variable regen and almost completely takes over for the brakes. I pretty much only touch my brakes to turn on my brake light. The throttle off style regen on the x controller won't let you coast or change how powerful the regen is on the fly. I suppose you could always flip the switch back to EP mode if you wanted to coast, but, at that point, might as well have a regen button or a way to control variable regen. You can reach out to ERT about how you want the regen to be set up.

With the factory battery, the amps will be increased to 85A. That's pretty much on the edge of what the factory battery can handle. My top speed went from 42mph to 47mph. Overall acceleration improved as well.
Thank you for your feedback.. im still leaning toward the X controller for now and get a ASI to play with.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 02 2019 5:23pm

Why would you get the x-controller when you can get one of those after market ASI controllers?

The X-controller is down right underpowered unprogrammable garbage, even with regen. It doesn't ramp up the power quick or has low phase amps. Just plain under powers the bike. Does the X-controller even have field weakening?

Unless of course you want to keep the bike stock looking and want to play it safe by limiting your speed. Don't waste your money on it in my opinion.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 02 2019 5:28pm

I think buying the x bike might be worth it. You get a few other improvements for not much more money. it definitely doesn't make any sense to buy the x controller separately to upgrade a stock bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 03 2019 12:54am

Offroader wrote:
Apr 02 2019 5:23pm
Why would you get the x-controller when you can get one of those after market ASI controllers?
I can think of a few reasons.

For one, the ASI is like twice the cost.

Next (and I could be wrong about this one) but I don't think there is much of a benefit using the stock battery with the ASI controller.

The X Controller is better integrated with the build - I hate the way the wires poke out the side with the ASI.

Some folks just want to plug and play. I am sure there is a lot more learning curve with the ASI.

Some people are quite content with the X Controller. I'm not in any hurry to buy another controller. Maybe when it's integrated better and I can buy a battery pack that can take advantage of it. But I probably won't be looking to do that until after I've worn down my stock battery or something like twice as good comes on the market.

Also, if you buy the X Model you get some nice other features such as the upgraded seat that I have not been able to order and improved brakes. So when you factor those upgrades in, the X Controller is probably like 1/3 or even 1/4 the cost of the ASI.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 02 2019 5:23pm
The X-controller is down right underpowered unprogrammable garbage, even with regen. It doesn't ramp up the power quick or has low phase amps. Just plain under powers the bike. Does the X-controller even have field weakening?
I would say calling it garbage is really harsh.

I think the X Controller was the single best upgrade I've done. I think if you had come from the original controller you would be more pleased with the X Controller. The X Controller has noticeably more torque, higher top end, yes - field weakening, a bit quieter, infinitely better throttle control and response, and mine has regen which is the best feature for controlled descents, not overheating the crap out of the brakes, more braking power and with the bonus of recharging some electrons otherwise lost.

I say the regen is a bonus, and its a really nice bonus. I can get home from the ridge about 4 miles from here (1800 vertical feet) using 0% of the battery. I kept it in sport mode the whole trip - punched it in the flat-ish areas coming down. With the stock controller, it would have taken about 5% battery.

By the way, most people probably don't mind that you can't pop wheelies at 20-30mph. I think that's probably the main reason you call it garbage.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Observeder » Apr 03 2019 10:26am

I'm looking at buying a Sur Ron and am having a hard time deciding between getting the X controller or just getting the stock bike and adding an ASI 4000. Im not planning on upgrading my battery yet until it gets some wear. One of the major deterrents to me getting the ASI is that its just not as well integrated into the bike and doesn't seem like it would stand up well to getting all sorts of dirt and other crud thrown at it if I'm taking it offroad or get caught out in the rain. Is there any way to make it so the ASI doesnt have the exposed wires and connections or would I need to rig up some sort of cover for it if I want to protect it? ASI is just 5 minutes up the road from me so I have the advantage of proximity to the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

I hadn't heard that the X had an upgraded seat over the MX. Is this just true on the older models or do the current MX bikes sold on the site have the upgraded seat as well?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 03 2019 11:07am

Observeder wrote:
Apr 03 2019 10:26am
I'm looking at buying a Sur Ron and am having a hard time deciding between getting the X controller or just getting the stock bike and adding an ASI 4000. Im not planning on upgrading my battery yet until it gets some wear. One of the major deterrents to me getting the ASI is that its just not as well integrated into the bike and doesn't seem like it would stand up well to getting all sorts of dirt and other crud thrown at it if I'm taking it offroad or get caught out in the rain. Is there any way to make it so the ASI doesnt have the exposed wires and connections or would I need to rig up some sort of cover for it if I want to protect it? ASI is just 5 minutes up the road from me so I have the advantage of proximity to the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

I hadn't heard that the X had an upgraded seat over the MX. Is this just true on the older models or do the current MX bikes sold on the site have the upgraded seat as well?
I believe a lot of people have the concern on how the ASI is being mounted. Others have mounted it with the wires facing inward as well as making their own brackets and covers. I think ERT is working on a better mounting solution to address those concerns, but I'm not sure.

I have ridden in a downpour with the ASI without any issues. My bike was used in ERT's initial development for their PnP kit. The main concern at the beginning was dialing in the tuning and making a PnP harness. Now that has been taken care of, the other concerns are being ironed out.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 03 2019 11:33am

What would you recommend the 4000 or 8000 ASI controller if you plan on modifying your battery pack at a later date?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 03 2019 12:33pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 03 2019 11:33am
What would you recommend the 4000 or 8000 ASI controller if you plan on modifying your battery pack at a later date?


I think the BAC4000 is plenty. With a 20S16Ah test pack, ERT was able to hit 70mph with some room to go faster. The problem was the factory knobby tires were too unstable to push it any further.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 03 2019 12:41pm

Neat! Would be even better with the supermoto wheels and tires, although I'm not sure if they are rated for 70 mph!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Apr 03 2019 12:49pm

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:33pm
I think the BAC4000 is plenty. With a 20S16Ah test pack, ERT was able to hit 70mph with some room to go faster. The problem was the factory knobby tires were too unstable to push it any further.
That is pretty dang fast. 16Ahr won't give much range though. I'm sure the super moto tires will handle that much speed.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 03 2019 1:10pm

fechter wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:49pm
skyungjae wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:33pm
I think the BAC4000 is plenty. With a 20S16Ah test pack, ERT was able to hit 70mph with some room to go faster. The problem was the factory knobby tires were too unstable to push it any further.
That is pretty dang fast. 16Ahr won't give much range though. I'm sure the super moto tires will handle that much speed.
Yeah. I'm going to be trying a 20S24Ah from 12x 5S Zippy 8Ah packs. That should fit in the limited space and have the range I require in my daily use.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 03 2019 3:53pm

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:33pm



I think the BAC4000 is plenty. With a 20S16Ah test pack, ERT was able to hit 70mph with some room to go faster. The problem was the factory knobby tires were too unstable to push it any further.
Lets say that the 4000 and 8000 cost the same. Would you rather have the 4000 or 8000?

Any drawbacks to going with the 8000, other than cost? Like possible fit or higher energy losses?

One thing that makes me lean more on getting the 8000 if there is no draw backs is the possibility to use more phase amps, which I find annoyingly limited on my adaptto max-e. I may never need them, especially with a mid-drive, but I'm not really sure.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 03 2019 4:22pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 03 2019 3:53pm
skyungjae wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:33pm



I think the BAC4000 is plenty. With a 20S16Ah test pack, ERT was able to hit 70mph with some room to go faster. The problem was the factory knobby tires were too unstable to push it any further.
Lets say that the 4000 and 8000 cost the same. Would you rather have the 4000 or 8000?

Any drawbacks to going with the 8000, other than cost? Like possible fit or higher energy losses?

One thing that makes me lean more on getting the 8000 if there is no draw backs is the possibility to use more phase amps, which I find annoyingly limited on my adaptto max-e. I may never need them, especially with a mid-drive, but I'm not really sure.
Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to answer that question. ERT did all the work.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 03 2019 4:54pm

I will be getting 8k for sure. The cost is almost the same so why even bother. Besides, you can always sell or re-use it when it is time to move on with another project. But there is a few other controllers that are very interesting and will cost you half the price like 24Fet nucular coming this summer. With its tiny BMS that shows all the cells on the screen will be great. Dont have to buy a monster BMS losing all the battery space. And charging through the motor so you dont have to get a new charger, just use your adaptto charger.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 04 2019 10:40am

n2mb wrote:
Apr 03 2019 12:41pm
Neat! Would be even better with the supermoto wheels and tires, although I'm not sure if they are rated for 70 mph!
I checked, the front tire is p speed rated, up to 93 mph. Though, I'm not sure how well balanced the tires are with tubes. It might vibrate too much before you get to that speed. The rear tire has a higher speed rating.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 04 2019 1:24pm

speed ratings? Do you mean like many of us riding 50MPH on bicycle tires really care about speed ratings of real motorcycle tires?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by free-trade » Apr 04 2019 8:34pm

I really love this bike and want to ride it not only on trails but also on the street.

https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... otorcycle/

In Europe (I am from Germany) there is a street legal version of this bike with a 45kmh registration.
It is sold for 4199€ and you have to be 16 years and must have a drivers license for 50ccm bikes with max. 45kmh(or for cars).
Insurance costs about 50€ and the number plate can be used for 12month.

My big question is:
Does anyone know how to config/program the controller???
Someone has already reduced the max rpm to get the 45kmh topspeed.
(has it be done in the factory in China? or the EU importeur? not the shops that sell them, they have no idea)

Is it possible to program the controller and lower the max. rpm of the motor like with the BBSHD/BBS02??

I want to change the gear(60teeth sprocket) and then reduce the max. rpm of the motor until the maximum speed is about 28kmh
.

With 28kmh it is possible to ride the bike with 15years and you also don't need the driver license.

Anyone know how to get the TÜV to accept the changes and change the 45kmh to 25kmh?

I know this has been done with scooters like the Piaggio Zip 50.
Last edited by free-trade on Apr 04 2019 8:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 04 2019 8:38pm

Use the 64t sprocket and eco mode and you should be right around that speed, I think.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by free-trade » Apr 04 2019 8:48pm

ok...I have to check this. It has to be done in a way that it is not possible to be changed. This is crazy german law.

Normally you look for someone who has done the change that you want to do.
Then you take the papers of this bike and show it to them.
they will check if your bike is in this condition and then they will change your papers and if everything is done properly .

If you are the first then it is harder...however, if you change something at the bike then it has to be done in a way that it is not possible to change it during driving. Some "Prüfer" think that must need tools to change it back.
t

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 04 2019 8:56pm

There's also a wire that can be cut that restricts the speed. I think to 30 mph in the latest x bikes? Gearing that down might get you there.

racingame   100 W

100 W
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Joined: Jan 26 2018 9:40am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Apr 05 2019 9:12pm

How much price difference there is between BAC-4000 and BAC-8000? Also, would BAC-4000 be enough for 8 KW power and to reach 100 km/h? Also, I'm not sure about the fit, since the length of the BAC-8000 seems to suggest that it can't fit very well.

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