Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 06 2019 4:13am

racingame wrote:
Apr 05 2019 9:12pm
How much price difference there is between BAC-4000 and BAC-8000? Also, would BAC-4000 be enough for 8 KW power and to reach 100 km/h? Also, I'm not sure about the fit, since the length of the BAC-8000 seems to suggest that it can't fit very well.
From what I can determine so far the only place that has the BAC-4000 and 8000 tuned or made plug and play for the Sur-ron is this store.
https://electricrt.com/controllers/

Looks like $200 difference between the two. They have a contact link on their page and would best know if the 8000 fits. They reply back quick if you submit them a question. The stock Sur-Ron controller is huge so I see no reason why the 8000 would not fit. The 8000 is not so much bigger than the 4000, but best to just ask them.

The 4000 has a ridiculous amount of power, the 8000 even more reidculous. The 4000 can hit something like 32KW peak. The 4000 is probably all you would ever need but the 8000 may allow more acceleration from 0-5MPH because of more phase amps. You would need some major battery upgrade to probably ever get use out of the 8000, you would also have to sacrifice on capacity to get higher current rated cells.

I wouldn't overlook the need for more phase amps of the 8000. The Adaptto Max-E had software limited phase amps compared to a lyen 18fet that I used and I noticed immediately the loss of 0-10MPH acceleration with the max-e. You get used to it but my bike didn't have that dirt bike feel and power to it with the adaptto limited phase amps. Battery amps are good for top-speed, but low speed power and fun is all about phase amps. I can't say if you even need the extra phase amps of the 8000 because the Sur-Ron is a mid-drive and they may not be nearly as important as on a hub motored bike. I personally would probably buy the 8000 just to not be phase amp limited.

I assume you can buy the 4000 or 8000 elsewhere?? but it may not be plug and play with wire adapters and tuned for the Sur-Ron.

You can see in their description for the 4000 that they custom tune it for the Sur-Ron for things like regen, eco / sport mode, how much this matters I have no idea how easy it would be to buy a 4000 elsewhere and do it yourself. Can you even buy the 4000 at another store cheaper, I can't seem to find any online.
https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-upgrades/

Good link on more information on the 4000 & 8000
viewtopic.php?t=96264

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Apr 06 2019 7:58am

racingame wrote:
Apr 05 2019 9:12pm
How much price difference there is between BAC-4000 and BAC-8000? Also, would BAC-4000 be enough for 8 KW power and to reach 100 km/h? Also, I'm not sure about the fit, since the length of the BAC-8000 seems to suggest that it can't fit very well.
You can go 100kph with 5-6kw. Torque wouldn't be great. Either controller is battery power limited at high speeds, the 8000 will allow you to use more phase amps to accelerate at the beginning.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 06 2019 9:43am

Yes that is the big question, do you need the phase amps of the 8000. The 4000 looks to have 460 limit and the 8000 has 730 limit.

If I can test ride the Sur-Ron with a 4000, and turned up the phase amp limit all the way up, I would be able to determine if I really needed the 8000 with the higher phase amps.

The Sur-Ron is basically geared compared to a hub motor, you may not even need all the phase amps the 4000 can offer because of the mid-drive. With a hub motor, I would definitely go with the 8000 because you need all the phase amps you can get.

The 8000 will also probably be more robust in that it will not break as easily when using the peak phase amps. Adaptto purposely kept the phase amps software lmited on the max-e because they were probably worried about people blowing their controller. They must have known that its easy to break the controller when using high phase amps. Adaptto did offer an unlocked firmware that removed that limit which I always wanted to use but I heard the unlocked firmware wasn't updated and didn't want any issues from updating my firmware.

Maybe the people over E.R.T. would be better able to say if you would be better off with the 8000 on the Sur-Ron and would benefit from the higher phase amps. Because if I wouldn't need more than 460 amps then I would probably just go with the 4000 because I wouldn't be concerned about the higher reliability to be honest.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 06 2019 10:02am

Just search adaptto sur ron on yt and check the performance.
This dude on green bike has around 72V and 62t sprocket. Looks like it does pretty good with max-e. Why dont you install your controller ron surron and check it out. But my guess is that a BAC4000 would be much more competent than max-e
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EIg1DcKegQ

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 06 2019 4:49pm

Yes I agree, I would probably do it if I didn't have the controller on my hub bike. It is such a pain to remove, and I may need that bike for commuting.


At this point I'm just going to wait it out and wait for some reviews from other people who start using different controllers and see what else comes out. However, the summer riding season is getting close and would like to get rid of the crappy Sur-Ron controller.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Apr 06 2019 9:28pm

Do you have to switch out the stock display to be able to use the BAC-4000? I would prefer to keep the stock L1e display if possible. Also, stock battery is 1920Wh if I'm not wrong, while mine is 3000Wh (even though a bit higher), so I think it should be good.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Apr 06 2019 10:40pm

racingame wrote:
Apr 06 2019 9:28pm
Do you have to switch out the stock display to be able to use the BAC-4000? I would prefer to keep the stock L1e display if possible.
The stock display gets its signal from the controller. As far as I can tell, it's just one of the hall signals, so it should be possible to keep it but it would take a little rewiring. It also needs power for the back light, but I don't know what voltage it runs off. Best thing would be to back probe the connector pins with the stock controller and figure out which wire does what.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 07 2019 5:47am

racingame wrote:
Apr 06 2019 9:28pm
Do you have to switch out the stock display to be able to use the BAC-4000? I would prefer to keep the stock L1e display if possible. Also, stock battery is 1920Wh if I'm not wrong, while mine is 3000Wh (even though a bit higher), so I think it should be good.
I don't think the l1e Sur Ron has a different battery. Where did you see that? They are 1888 wHr.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Apr 07 2019 6:38am

racingame wrote:
Apr 05 2019 9:12pm
How much price difference there is between BAC-4000 and BAC-8000? Also, would BAC-4000 be enough for 8 KW power and to reach 100 km/h? Also, I'm not sure about the fit, since the length of the BAC-8000 seems to suggest that it can't fit very well.
A e-bikes have the ASI Bac8000 controller fitted pretty neatly.
Attachments
ASI bee3.JPG

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 07 2019 10:35am

What a beut Brennan!
What cells and config do you run? Think you have a screw loose on the bottom! Now lets see some videos of this beast!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2019 10:49am

I like how they fitted a cover over the 8000 controller front. E.R.T. should have fabricated some kind of cover to go over the front like they have. It shouldn't be so hard to make it even look like the Sur-ROn controller case.

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 07 2019 1:33pm

It's just a stock heat sink not a cover. They just turned the unit the right way. I would paint it black as well on a dark bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Apr 07 2019 7:20pm

n2mb wrote:
Apr 07 2019 5:47am
I don't think the l1e Sur Ron has a different battery. Where did you see that? They are 1888 wHr.
It's a custom battery, which is the main reason why I have to move away from Sur-Ron stock controller.
Aebrennan wrote:
Apr 07 2019 6:38am
A e-bikes have the ASI Bac8000 controller fitted pretty neatly.
I can see you are using the stock display, so it means that it works perfectly with BAC-8000 without any tweaks?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chilli P » Apr 07 2019 7:27pm

A couple of videos of the bike log hopping, jumping and fun riding mountain bike trails

https://youtu.be/ZYeT6czq5Uk
https://youtu.be/ouT8b6_djoE
https://youtu.be/pKkOG6voUPU

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Apr 08 2019 5:41am

Aebrennan wrote:
Apr 07 2019 6:38am
A e-bikes have the ASI Bac8000 controller fitted pretty neatly.
I can see you are using the stock display, so it means that it works perfectly with BAC-8000 without any tweaks?
[/quote]

Please don't jump to conclusions and misinform people following, there is already enough false information on this thread.

The stock display has not been removed, but it has no useful function.
Speed and odometer readings are not a concern at the moment, this is an off-road test bike.
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ASI mount 4.jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by morati » Apr 08 2019 8:52am

Allex wrote:
Apr 06 2019 10:02am
Just search adaptto sur ron on yt and check the performance.
This dude on green bike has around 72V and 62t sprocket. Looks like it does pretty good with max-e. Why dont you install your controller ron surron and check it out. But my guess is that a BAC4000 would be much more competent than max-e
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EIg1DcKegQ
Allex, what does your personal Sur ron look like in terms of upgrades? Thinking about one for myself.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 08 2019 10:04am

Hey buddy!
I have same fork as aebrennan - Manitou dorado pro, mt5 brakes, 52T sprocket with sine wave. Nothing else changed yet.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Apr 08 2019 6:40pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Apr 08 2019 5:41am
Please don't jump to conclusions and misinform people following, there is already enough false information on this thread.

The stock display has not been removed, but it has no useful function.
Speed and odometer readings are not a concern at the moment, this is an off-road test bike.
Jump to conclusions, misinform people? That's exactly why I asked in the first place... I never stated anything, just saw your photo and requested confirmations. No reason to be so aggressive to someone asking a simple question... That way you just discourage people from partecipating to a forum.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 08 2019 6:45pm

racingame wrote:
Apr 06 2019 9:28pm
Also, stock battery is 1920Wh if I'm not wrong, while mine is 3000Wh (even though a bit higher), so I think it should be good.
Does your 3k/Wh pack fit in the stock battery case? What cells/config? BMS?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 08 2019 8:52pm

I was going to ask that too. Where do you fit 3 kwHr on a Sur Ron? I can see 2 kwHr in the stock case with GA cells... But 3?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 08 2019 9:49pm

Allex wrote:
Apr 08 2019 10:04am
Hey buddy!
I have same fork as aebrennan - Manitou dorado pro, mt5 brakes, 52T sprocket with sine wave. Nothing else changed yet.
This is all the SurRon really needs. If you weigh over 225, go with a 55t rear sprocket, under 225, the 52t is perfect. The suspension and MT5 are perfect for the SurRon. Hey Allex, how about some pics of your ride?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 09 2019 2:13am

Sir if you insist.
Here is one from last year, still stock brakes and headlight waiting for a new mount(stock one does not fit with the new stem)
A Beta bike behind it.
IMG_5171.jpg
and with 17" street
IMG_5339 (1).jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 09 2019 1:51pm

n2mb wrote:
Apr 08 2019 8:52pm
I was going to ask that too. Where do you fit 3 kwHr on a Sur Ron? I can see 2 kwHr in the stock case with GA cells... But 3?
You would probably have to use another case or install aluminum sheet metal all around the battery compartment. Then fill it all the way to the top and get rid of the LED battery indicator and BMS at the top. It could be done if using 3500 MAH cells.

If you wanted to fit all the cells inside the stock battery case and got rid of all the cell spacers and tightly packed the cells with no space, which would not be a big deal at all as the pack won't get that hot, you could fit close to 3 KWH. I forget how many cells Allex said you could fit but that probably didn't account for removing the BMS or using a smaller BMS like used on the Adaptto controller. But Allex said you could fit I believe close to 230-250 cells in the stock battery case, which is close to 3 KWH if using 3500 MAH cells.

The battery may not as easily removable or removable at all, but it could probably be designed that way.

So yes, It can be done in many ways if you spend the time to do it. I plan on doing this just as soon as I get a controller.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 09 2019 2:11pm

https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-20s-72v- ... y-upgrade/

Looks like there will be a drop in solution for a decent battery upgrade.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bionicon » Apr 09 2019 3:01pm

I have a 20s 16 p with 30q samsung cells in a surron frame in an aluminum box, that is the absolute maximum and I have had to make small adjustments to the frame. I think a 20s 15p goes in easily.
mini_batterijbox.jpg
mini_ready to go.jpg
mini_chinese spagetti(1).jpg

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