Kelly KBS72121X Low Hall Voltage

KaiKall

1 mW
Joined
Jul 29, 2017
Messages
10
Location
Toronto, Canada
I am building my first bike using a cyclone 3000 and kelly controller as bundled from Luna Cycle. I am just at the point of assembling everything. With the bike upside-down motor was able to turn, and ran well earlier today before installing the throttle on the bike (same throttle and pins). When the key is turned all seems good and the controller light is green. As soon a I touch the throttle the Hall Sensor Fault code shows, and the motor jerks a tiny bit before doing nothing.

I measured the voltage across the halls and it seems to only have 3v, and the sensors jump between this and zero when the motor is turned as they should. The voltage should be 5v from the controller. I am trying to find the source of the problem.

Thanks
Kai
 
After looking through some more info here i found that the controller is outputting 12v across the hall sensor +/- when the halls are not plugged in(the phase wires still are). When the halls are in the voltage drops to ~2.15v, with the halls alternating between 0-3v. The voltage across the throttle is 5v regardless of the halls plugged in or not.
 
There are several possibilities. Double check the hall wiring. One possibility is the power line is going to the wrong pin on the halls.
Don't assume the colors match, but in most cases the black and red should match.
One of the hall sensors in the motor might be shorted, pulling down the supply.
If you have a bench supply that can limit the current to around 20mA, you could try powering the halls separately and see what happens. I suppose you could use a 9v battery and about a 1k resistor and see what voltage you get.
 
The motor and controller came as a kit from Luna, and I have been using the same connector for all the testing, and it was working earlier. How would i go about testing the hall sensors? So far i have measured the resistance and it appears that nothing is shorted. The halls are alternating between 0-3v with motor rotation, but that voltage should be higher. I contacted Kelly and was told that there is a step down board within the cyclone 3000w motor, but that still does not explain why it was working before.

Thanks
Kai
 
Good point. If all the signals are alternating when the motor turns then they must be working. I have never seen one fail in a mode where it works but just draws too much current (but that is still possible).

One test would be to place an ammeter in series with the hall supply line and measure how much current they are taking. It should be something around 10mA. I could probably find the datasheet for the sensors and get a more accurate guess.

If the current is abnormally high, then it's the motor. If the current is low, then it's the controller. Based on your observations, I'd be inclined to think it's the controller.
 
I tested the supply line for the halls and i could not get it to register any current passing through. What is weird is that the all good green light is on the controller until the throttle is pressed.

Thanks
 
You could possibly try feeding the hall supply off the throttle 5v and see what happens.
 
KaiKall said:
The voltage across the throttle is 5v regardless of the halls plugged in or not.

Does this voltage drop with the actuation of the throttle? Are all the other unused cable connectors secured.
 
Using the 5v supply from the throttle stops the hall error i had, and the motor was able to spin for a few seconds, though it seemed to run rough. After i let go of the throttle it would no longer spin, but there was still no error code. The voltage stayed at 5v the whole time.
 
fechter said:
You could possibly try feeding the hall supply off the throttle 5v and see what happens.

The 5v made it run quite rough, but i also tried using the supply from the 12v system i have using a dc-dc converter. The motor seemed to run well using this. Is it fine to use the dc-dc for the hall power?

Thanks
Kai
 
fechter said:
Good point. If all the signals are alternating when the motor turns then they must be working. I have never seen one fail in a mode where it works but just draws too much current (but that is still possible).

One test would be to place an ammeter in series with the hall supply line and measure how much current they are taking. It should be something around 10mA. I could probably find the datasheet for the sensors and get a more accurate guess.

If the current is abnormally high, then it's the motor. If the current is low, then it's the controller. Based on your observations, I'd be inclined to think it's the controller.

I tested the current going to the halls and it is 10mA if fed by the controller, although i still get the fault code. It measured 15mA if i used the 12v circuit to power the halls, and the motor does work, although it does not seem to reach max speed.
 
With your testing and fine troubleshooting it sounds like you've identified a known issue.

As verified with the installation instructions on the Luna website...

Black 7 pin (female): Hall & power wires

(#18) Yellow: Hall A
(#16) Blue: Hall C
(#17) Green: Hall B
(#7) Pink: Battery pos (+) in, to power controller
(#11) Red: 12v (+) out, to power halls
(#21) Black: Ground (-)
Red (no #, from throttle switch/key): Battery pos (+) out (connects to cyclone motor pcb and thermostat, then loops back to Pink (#7) to power controller

As seen in this thread... https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...luna-kelly-kbsx-cyclone-controllers#post35084

And also by Fany with Kelly in an earlier ES post...

DingusMcGee said:
After a total lack of help from our local USA Sabvoton Sinewave Controller dealer-importer -- customer service there sucks, one could say it does not exist. I decided to try to install an older 96v Kelly Controller on one of my Cyclone 3000 motors. As usual I got puncual and to the point replies to my emails to Fany of Kelly controllers.

Over the weekend I kept getting error code 4-2:

From the manual on error 4-2: 1. Incorrect or loose wiring or a damaged hall sensor. 2. Also be caused by incorrect hall angle configuration (60 degree or 120 degree)


From another email:


I have checked the Hall wiring with a continuity multi-meter from the end of the Kelly Hall harness leads to where the 5 Hall wires are bundled and enter the motor. I did this noninvasive like testing with a sharp needle to penetrate the last visible hall wire sheaths. No wiring problems in this zone. I also added a conductive grease to the wire connection junctions.

The Hall angle is known and is entered as 120 degrees. Sixty does not work.

Each time I get done with a Kelly Test Run I am able to hook up my OEM controller and the mid drive motor runs fine -- on pavement and I do riding with the existing Halls & their wirings. The motor has 8 steel magnets. The motor is a Cyclone 3000.

here is the reply from Fany:

If the motor is from Cyclone,we may try to use 12V instead of 5V for the hall sensors.
This type of motor has some problem with the hall sensors signal.

Thanks,
Fany

And as for how to get the 12v hooked I asked:

Hi Fany,

the 12v instead 5v sounds worth trying. Is the following wiring setup satisfactory for getting and using 12v on the Hall sensors:

Reconnect the black and red 5v wires going to Halls using from pin1 of J1 12v to the red Hall wire and from p7 of J1 connect to the black Hall wire?


From Fany,
HI,

NO,Actually I tried 12V for the hall sensors of Cyclone motor for many times.
It seems these motors only can work when we use 12V for hall sensors.

The ground wire is still on J2 pin14.You don't have to change the ground because they are internally connected.
Please just use 12V for the hall sensors instead of 5V.

Thanks,
Fany

It seems with Kelly you get knowledge with punctual customer service -- I like it.

I have got powerful rotation on my Kelly controller-Cyclone setup now. I wonder, does the Sabvoton actually need 12v on the Halls instead of 5v to work good on the C-3000? Maybe I will buck convert the 5v to 12v making a common ground as the Sabvoton does not have an internal 12v 30mA power supply like the Kelly.

But if your using the controller's 12vdc power supply as recommended above...? :( With lack of top speed. Perhaps three speed switch wiring or programming? (throttle configuration)
 
KaiKall said:
I tested the current going to the halls and it is 10mA if fed by the controller, although i still get the fault code. It measured 15mA if i used the 12v circuit to power the halls, and the motor does work, although it does not seem to reach max speed.

I checked the datasheet for a SS41 hall sensor. At 12v, it says 6mA max, so a reading of 15mA for three of them sounds correct.
It seems like the 12v supply from the Kelly is sagging under load too much. Running from a separate 12v supply should be fine but it would be nice if the controller worked properly.
 
I think I may be running into this same issue on a new Kelly KBS72121X I just tried installing on my new Voloci

need to do some testing with the halls today
 
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