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Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 16 2019 7:35am
by plarot
Hi,

I'm finally thinking about buying a power ebike to replace my motorbike for my daily commute ;
As I'm really not confident about building it myself, I would like to have your advice on these particular models that could fit my expectations :
+70kmh ; 7/8k€ ; reliable ; good after sales in case of problems ; not a escooter ..

Thanks ! :bigthumb:
(sorry for my english)

HPC Revolution
http://hi-powercycles.com/revolution/
Stealth B-52
https://www.stealthelectricbikes.co...t/stealth-b-52/
Qulbix Q140MD Core
https://qulbix.com/qulbix-products/...rformance-ebike
Cyklon
https://www.cyklonebike.com/en/kariwa-lite-2/

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 16 2019 12:23pm
by efMX Trials Electric Freeride
plarot wrote:
Jul 16 2019 7:35am
Hi,

I'm finally thinking about buying a power ebike to replace my motorbike for my daily commute ;
As I'm really not confident about building it myself, I would like to have your advice on these particular models that could fit my expectations :
+70kmh ; 7/8k€ ; reliable ; good after sales in case of problems ; not a escooter ..

Thanks ! :bigthumb:
(sorry for my english)

HPC Revolution
http://hi-powercycles.com/revolution/
Stealth B-52
https://www.stealthelectricbikes.co...t/stealth-b-52/
Qulbix Q140MD Core
https://qulbix.com/qulbix-products/...rformance-ebike
Cyklon
https://www.cyklonebike.com/en/kariwa-lite-2/
if you are using it for commuting and are located in europe?? wouldn't you want or need something street legal??? have you considered a Zero electric motorcycle or Sur-Ron, etc.. that can be registered and ridden legally on public roads??? I would also recommend buying from your nearest local EV dealer for product support and test ride before purchase.. none of those high power ebikes you mentioned will ever be street legal.. therefore you could get in trouble, fines, bike confiscated etc for riding an illegal unregistered motor vehicle..

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 17 2019 1:06am
by plarot
Thanks for the reply !
You are absolutely right about the legal side in France but as lots of modified ebikes are not legal anymore (+25km/h) and didn't had any troubles, for me it would not be a problem if I don't find a "legal" solution.
As the Zero M is really to expensive for what it is, I was looking for an in between solution. I didnt knew the Sur-Ron, it looks like a very good answer for what I'm looking for ... Would you know other brands like this one, road legal ? btw, how you know it's road legal compared to an "european" brand like the Slovenian Qulbix ?

Thanks

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 17 2019 3:37am
by Drunkskunk
We have this saying, "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." Those bikes you listed all look like motorcycles. The police will look at you screaming by at 70kph on one and see them as an unlicensed, unregistered, uninsured, untagged, unlawful motorcycle. it's the hazard we all face building super fast ebikes. However, if you add a hyper powerful hub motor to a grandma's step-through bike, fill the flower basket with 2kwh of lithium battery, and scream past the police while pretending to pedal, and they are still going to see it as a bicycle.

The secret to not getting caught is to either not be seen, or not be illegal. If you're looking to replace a motorcycle with an electric, and plan to use it like a motorcycle, the best answer is an electric motorcycle, not a hopped up bicycle that looks like a motorcycle.

The difference between a Sun-ron and a Qulbix in the eyes of the law is that the Sun-Ron has a serial number, title, and all the documentation from the factory to certify it as road legal. It's built to the legal standards for a motorcycle, and all the parts meet the Department of transportation's standards, have been tested and certified as fit for road use.
the Qulbix is just a bicycle made from bicycle parts. None of the parts are road legal for a motor vehicle. it might be possible in France to get a home built ebike certified as a motorcycle based on a Qulbix frame, but expect that to be a long process with a lot of legal fees.

Also expect something like this to be expensive as heck. You can't go for cheap bike parts and expect it to survive long at 70kph being used like a motorcycle. When I built my high powered ebike a while back, it ended up costing more than a Zero Fx

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 17 2019 5:44am
by brumbrum
Qulbix have always had great products. Well designed, sturdy and good comms. You can specify exactly what you want with the MD140 as they will build it from the ground up for you, so it can be a bespoke build with some choice of components. It also has the option of either pedals or pegs :wink:
But it has been designed to be an off roader. You could spexify road tires on your build, i'm sure that would be no problem.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 18 2019 2:25am
by plarot
Thanks for your review of the Qulbix Brumbrum, it's still my favorite ebike design.
Drunkskunk, I get your duck point that's why I didn't jumped on a 100km/h ebike yet .. As my daily commute are not very long, th'ats why an electric mortocycle is not mandatory, I wish ebikes like these are legal ..
And thank you for your feedback on the lifetime of such parts .. a bit scary although !

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 19 2019 12:43pm
by efMX Trials Electric Freeride
since your in france? then I would look for a french bike;) such as LMX, electric motion, sev, etc.. maybe you could find a used or demo bike for discount.. here,s another french bike for example..
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=101361

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 20 2019 3:35am
by brumbrum
Lmx will give you best perfrmance out of the bunch for sure. My lmx161 is lightweight compared to the others, and acceleration is outstanding. 10,000watt bursts :thumb:
If top speed of 40mph aint enough with stock gearing just put in a smaller rear go-kart sprocket which cost just a few euros. There is so much torque available that higher top speed can be had without sacrificing acceleration.
It's a well balanced bike and excellent quality design. They do a road legal version if you are willing to pay for it. I built mine starting with the frame and drive train and built my own to the spec i wanted. I think i had their last frame kit. They only seem to sell complete bikes these days.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 21 2019 1:59pm
by racingame
He asked for an e-bike, and you guys direct him to e-motorcycles? I still think a bike and a motorcycle are two different things, but whatever...

With your budget, I would go straight for a Guià, best highly engineered vehicle of this kind that's around now. The other bikes you mentioned look too cheepo Chinese toys to me; also I really don't like rear hub motors, they are unefficient and heavy, just not as good as central ones. There's a reason if Zero, Sur-Ron, Alta Motors, Honda, BMW and all the others use central motors.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 21 2019 6:10pm
by efMX Trials Electric Freeride
racingame wrote:
Jul 21 2019 1:59pm
He asked for an e-bike, and you guys direct him to e-motorcycles? I still think a bike and a motorcycle are two different things, but whatever...

With your budget, I would go straight for a Guià, best highly engineered vehicle of this kind that's around now. The other bikes you mentioned look too cheepo Chinese toys to me; also I really don't like rear hub motors, they are unefficient and heavy, just not as good as central ones. There's a reason if Zero, Sur-Ron, Alta Motors, Honda, BMW and all the others use central motors.
seems OP is replacing a motorcycle and was considering an illegal motorcycle (with pedals).. otherwise known loosely as an ebike ..

bafang mid drive through the bicycle gears would definitely be in a different vehicle class.. but would it suit the commute in the same manner as a moped or motorcycle electric, maybe not.. cool bike though..

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 3:58am
by brumbrum
There is also the LMX 64 🤙

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 4:26am
by plarot
Thanks a lot for the suggestions guys, I'm gonna look at these others choices I didn't know :bigthumb:

Brumbrum : the website says it's "only" 6300W, did you modified it ? or it's an electronic tweak to have more power ?
Ebike 43 : As-tu déjà entendu des soucis avec les condés et ce genre de machines ? (ever heard about problems with police?)

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 6:01am
by brumbrum
plarot wrote:
Jul 22 2019 4:26am
Thanks a lot for the suggestions guys, I'm gonna look at these others choices I didn't know :bigthumb:

Brumbrum : the website says it's "only" 6300W, did you modified it ? or it's an electronic tweak to have more power ?
Ebike 43 : As-tu déjà entendu des soucis avec les condés et ce genre de machines ? (ever heard about problems with police?)
My lmx161 is not the homolagated legal street version. I have mine set at 150amps limit, though the motor will draw more but could end up damaging it. I limit the amps through a cycle analyst. Lmx must limit the street legal version further, which also has to have a 28mph speed limit to have a 'light' motorcycle certification in europe.

The LMX64 is different, it is their new ebike, which can be throttle only or pedal assist. This is a 'normal' ebike but has masses of power.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 6:24am
by plarot
And you set it on the embeded software ?

The Guià looks veeeery good but how can it go that fast (>60kmh) with only 1500W ?

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 8:52am
by Ebike43
j ai un ebike qui roulle a Paris . la polices ne regarde pas mon ebike car il possede des pedales. J ai les meme performance que LMX mais le vélo cours a 70 km/h

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 9:12am
by racingame
plarot wrote:
Jul 22 2019 6:24am
And you set it on the embeded software ?

The Guià looks veeeery good but how can it go that fast (>60kmh) with only 1500W ?
Because, as I said, mid-drive motors are more efficient than rear hub motors. You can have more Watts on a rear hub motor, thus draining battery faster, and yet go just as fast as a mid-drive motor with less Watts. Also rear hub motors overheat very easily on steep roads, so you really shouldn't consider them if you plan to use the bike on places with a big difference in altitude.

Anyway, this guy achieves 74km/h with the stock BBSHD motor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbiNoNmqUpg
Max speed depends on many factors, like weight of the bike/rider, gear ratios, slope angle, etc. so I can see 50-60km/h as a more realistic average max speed for most conditions. Of course, if you plan to ride mainly on level ground, then you can get any bike and speed wouldn't be an issue.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 11:29am
by brumbrum
racingame wrote:
Jul 22 2019 9:12am
plarot wrote:
Jul 22 2019 6:24am
And you set it on the embeded software ?

The Guià looks veeeery good but how can it go that fast (>60kmh) with only 1500W ?
Because, as I said, mid-drive motors are more efficient than rear hub motors. You can have more Watts on a rear hub motor, thus draining battery faster, and yet go just as fast as a mid-drive motor with less Watts. Also rear hub motors overheat very easily on steep roads, so you really shouldn't consider them if you plan to use the bike on places with a big difference in altitude.

Anyway, this guy achieves 74km/h with the stock BBSHD motor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbiNoNmqUpg
Max speed depends on many factors, like weight of the bike/rider, gear ratios, slope angle, etc. so I can see 50-60km/h as a more realistic average max speed for most conditions. Of course, if you plan to ride mainly on level ground, then you can get any bike and speed wouldn't be an issue.

Gearing ratios are what change speed and torque on mid-drives plus the rpm of the motor. For instance, my lmx bike is 60v nominal (16s) but could easily reach 95kph if i swap around the sprockets to a 14/70 tooth combo. At present i have a 14/91 and get over 70kph. The bike comes new with 12/94 iirc, and reachs about 60kph.
In my experience hub motors can be more efficient. If you are having problems with a direct drive hub motor overheating then just squirt 8ml of ferrofluid into the motor and it will never overheat again. A hub motor overheats due to user misuse or by having the wrong winding/kv for its general application.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 11:35am
by brumbrum
plarot wrote:
Jul 22 2019 6:24am
And you set it on the embeded software ?

The Guià looks veeeery good but how can it go that fast (>60kmh) with only 1500W ?
A cycle analyst is a small device that can override some aspects of the controller. However the controller on the lmx161 does need some programming with software to get best results.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 12:07pm
by benjamin84
racingame wrote:
Jul 21 2019 1:59pm
He asked for an e-bike, and you guys direct him to e-motorcycles? I still think a bike and a motorcycle are two different things, but whatever...

With your budget, I would go straight for a Guià, best highly engineered vehicle of this kind that's around now. The other bikes you mentioned look too cheepo Chinese toys to me; also I really don't like rear hub motors, they are unefficient and heavy, just not as good as central ones. There's a reason if Zero, Sur-Ron, Alta Motors, Honda, BMW and all the others use central motors.
Have to say, that Guia looks really good, but it won't hold a candle to the performance of the Qulbix Q140MD (or other bikes with the QS205 motor). I own a Q140MD, and I've ridden an Exess e-bike with the same (I think) Bafang motor, and they could not be more different. The Q140MD has power to lift the front wheel at 40 kph, the Bafang 1000W simply felt like a slightly more powerful regular ped-elec. All depends on what the OP wants to be honest.

Personally I'd love to add a Guia to my garage of two wheeled toys, but it would be used for different things than the Q140MD. I could see it being much more cop-friendly though as long as you ride at a sensible speed.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 2:39pm
by racingame
benjamin84 wrote:
Jul 22 2019 12:07pm
racingame wrote:
Jul 21 2019 1:59pm
He asked for an e-bike, and you guys direct him to e-motorcycles? I still think a bike and a motorcycle are two different things, but whatever...

With your budget, I would go straight for a Guià, best highly engineered vehicle of this kind that's around now. The other bikes you mentioned look too cheepo Chinese toys to me; also I really don't like rear hub motors, they are unefficient and heavy, just not as good as central ones. There's a reason if Zero, Sur-Ron, Alta Motors, Honda, BMW and all the others use central motors.
Have to say, that Guia looks really good, but it won't hold a candle to the performance of the Qulbix Q140MD (or other bikes with the QS205 motor). I own a Q140MD, and I've ridden an Exess e-bike with the same (I think) Bafang motor, and they could not be more different. The Q140MD has power to lift the front wheel at 40 kph, the Bafang 1000W simply felt like a slightly more powerful regular ped-elec. All depends on what the OP wants to be honest.

Personally I'd love to add a Guia to my garage of two wheeled toys, but it would be used for different things than the Q140MD. I could see it being much more cop-friendly though as long as you ride at a sensible speed.
Exess mounts the Bafang Ultra, not the BBSHD: they are two totally different motors, since the first one uses a torque sensor (like most motors on the market, namely Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, Shimano, etc.) while the second one uses a speed sensor. Riding experience is also totally different, I personally prefer the speed sensor where you just need to slightly move the pedals to get the full power you want according the assistance level selected. Maybe I could change idea though with the new motor developed internally by Specialized, the Specialized Turbo SL 1.1. I'm really interested in trying that as well, as they claim it "doubles your effort with silky smooth power delivery", which could mean they just take the input from torque sensor and multiply it by 2, or they added some extra logic to their firmware.

Anyway, a bike for me has to be light, and definitely not bulky, so anything that goes over 50kg is definitely out of question. I think there is a perfect combination between battery capacity, motor power and bike weight, which is where Sur-Ron nailed it, and also the Guià I think has the right balance between these variables. But eventually everyone has different needs and different tastes, so we are lucky that there are so many options out there nowadays.

By the way, I also owned a Bultaco Brinco, which was a very weird vehicle with its overdrive thing (I consider it a precursor of current ebikes, before the PAS as we intend it existed) and, while I liked it for many reasons since there was nothing similar around, I couldn't really deal with its weight (it was around 43kg but it was already too much for me) or the position of the saddle (too high to mount on it, but when you were sit, you had your legs too much crouched so not very comfortable). This for saying that a bike for being good needs also good geometries in my opinion, and also something that can adapt well to people of different sizes, since we are talking about bikes that usually come just in one size. I personally think that the swappable subframe on the Guià is a very smart solution to address this last issue.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 3:43pm
by benjamin84
All depends on your background really - are you looking for a quiet motorbike, or a fast e-bike, or just a little extra push on the steepest hills. In the OP's case he specifically states he wants to replace his motorcycle, then I don't think a 1000W bicycle will cut it.

I came from off road motorcycles, both full on enduro bikes and big adventure bikes, so my 52kg Q140MD seems impossibly light to me, hell I can fairly easily lift it over obstacles if I have to. Not doing that with 240kgs of BMW GS ;)

But yeah, to the OP, if you want pedals, and something that could sort of maybe pass for a bicycle with a proper bicycle seat, then the Q140MD is pretty much your only choice unless you go for some of the hub-drive options. Personally I don't like hub drives, but I do like the silent running of the hub drive motors, so the mid mounted QS205 on the Q140MD was perfect. After sales service has been great, and I have crashed a few times on the bike off road (once quite spectacularly) and it has survived very well! It doesn't look anywhere near as sleek as the Guia or even the Sur-Ron, but it is well constructed and should last you many many years.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 3:54pm
by efMX Trials Electric Freeride
benjamin84 wrote:
Jul 22 2019 3:43pm
All depends on your background really - are you looking for a quiet motorbike, or a fast e-bike, or just a little extra push on the steepest hills. In the OP's case he specifically states he wants to replace his motorcycle, then I don't think a 1000W bicycle will cut it.

I came from off road motorcycles, both full on enduro bikes and big adventure bikes, so my 52kg Q140MD seems impossibly light to me, hell I can fairly easily lift it over obstacles if I have to. Not doing that with 240kgs of BMW GS ;)

But yeah, to the OP, if you want pedals, and something that could sort of maybe pass for a bicycle with a proper bicycle seat, then the Q140MD is pretty much your only choice unless you go for some of the hub-drive options. Personally I don't like hub drives, but I do like the silent running of the hub drive motors, so the mid mounted QS205 on the Q140MD was perfect. After sales service has been great, and I have crashed a few times on the bike off road (once quite spectacularly) and it has survived very well! It doesn't look anywhere near as sleek as the Guia or even the Sur-Ron, but it is well constructed and should last you many many years.
you missed vtt électrique enduro ..
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=101361

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 4:01pm
by benjamin84
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 22 2019 3:54pm
benjamin84 wrote:
Jul 22 2019 3:43pm
All depends on your background really - are you looking for a quiet motorbike, or a fast e-bike, or just a little extra push on the steepest hills. In the OP's case he specifically states he wants to replace his motorcycle, then I don't think a 1000W bicycle will cut it.

I came from off road motorcycles, both full on enduro bikes and big adventure bikes, so my 52kg Q140MD seems impossibly light to me, hell I can fairly easily lift it over obstacles if I have to. Not doing that with 240kgs of BMW GS ;)

But yeah, to the OP, if you want pedals, and something that could sort of maybe pass for a bicycle with a proper bicycle seat, then the Q140MD is pretty much your only choice unless you go for some of the hub-drive options. Personally I don't like hub drives, but I do like the silent running of the hub drive motors, so the mid mounted QS205 on the Q140MD was perfect. After sales service has been great, and I have crashed a few times on the bike off road (once quite spectacularly) and it has survived very well! It doesn't look anywhere near as sleek as the Guia or even the Sur-Ron, but it is well constructed and should last you many many years.
you missed vtt électrique enduro ..
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=101361
Looks very cool, but doesn't seem like it will be a very straight forward purchasing process if he doesn't have a website set up? Alternatives are always good though :) By the way, check out some of his vids, and then check some vids on the Qulbix (or Vortex as they use the same motor). The QS205 motor is absolutely silent, what little noise you get is from the tires rolling and the chain. The more compact mid drive motors are internally geared and make that RC-like noise which you may like or hate :) Probably less of an issue for the OP as he will be on road and not trying to sneak silently through the forest like I am.

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 4:20pm
by efMX Trials Electric Freeride
benjamin84 wrote:
Jul 22 2019 4:01pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 22 2019 3:54pm
benjamin84 wrote:
Jul 22 2019 3:43pm
All depends on your background really - are you looking for a quiet motorbike, or a fast e-bike, or just a little extra push on the steepest hills. In the OP's case he specifically states he wants to replace his motorcycle, then I don't think a 1000W bicycle will cut it.

I came from off road motorcycles, both full on enduro bikes and big adventure bikes, so my 52kg Q140MD seems impossibly light to me, hell I can fairly easily lift it over obstacles if I have to. Not doing that with 240kgs of BMW GS ;)

But yeah, to the OP, if you want pedals, and something that could sort of maybe pass for a bicycle with a proper bicycle seat, then the Q140MD is pretty much your only choice unless you go for some of the hub-drive options. Personally I don't like hub drives, but I do like the silent running of the hub drive motors, so the mid mounted QS205 on the Q140MD was perfect. After sales service has been great, and I have crashed a few times on the bike off road (once quite spectacularly) and it has survived very well! It doesn't look anywhere near as sleek as the Guia or even the Sur-Ron, but it is well constructed and should last you many many years.
you missed vtt électrique enduro ..
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=101361
Looks very cool, but doesn't seem like it will be a very straight forward purchasing process if he doesn't have a website set up? Alternatives are always good though :) By the way, check out some of his vids, and then check some vids on the Qulbix (or Vortex as they use the same motor). The QS205 motor is absolutely silent, what little noise you get is from the tires rolling and the chain. The more compact mid drive motors are internally geared and make that RC-like noise which you may like or hate :) Probably less of an issue for the OP as he will be on road and not trying to sneak silently through the forest like I am.
since OP is in france, same as ebike43 / vtt électrique enduro.. then test ride and local pick up may be available..
good point on sound level comparison though, jackshaft reduction will have more noise than direct drive..

Re: Stealth, Qulbix, Cyklon, HPI, ??

Posted: Jul 22 2019 4:43pm
by benjamin84
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 22 2019 4:20pm
since OP is in france, same as ebike43 / vtt électrique enduro.. then test ride and local pick up may be available..
good point on sound level comparison though, jackshaft reduction will have more noise than direct drive..
Missed that, good point!