Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
skidmark   1 mW

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Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by skidmark » May 10 2020 10:43am

Hello ES, I am a new member here, looking for advice on how to get the best off-road performance out of my 2005 Giant Team DH

I bought this bike barely used with a Tangent Ascent 3210 (3kw) preinstalled. It has been sitting dormant for around a year while I designed and 3d printed a battery mounting solution in my spare time. I am now satisfied with the battery mount, still needs a few more refinements to make it perfect, but I finally got it to the point where I could take the bike for a test ride.

1st test ride the bike was barely pushing 1700 watts at full throttle. I bought the Castle Link and Cycle Analyst programming cables and dug into the settings. Everything in the Castle Link looked ok, nothing that stood out as a potential issue. But, when I connected to the CA, I found that the max power was set to 1700w. So I upped the max power to 9,900w (as instructed by Dave's recommended settings) and I thought problem solved.

2nd test ride and I was able to get up to just over 2,300 watts and then suddenly the power to the wheel would cut off. Whenever I would release the throttle and try again the same thing would happen. It would start building power then cut off. Won't push over 2.3kw without cutting power. CA seemed fine. Now I'm thinking that maybe I missed something in the Castle settings, so I try to reconnect and it fails to recognize the ESC. The Castle Link app is detecting the usb programming cable but won't detect the controller. So now I'm suspicious that I might have a defected or damaged controller. I went through all the wiring and connections. Everything appears to be connected properly. I also removed and inspected the cycloidal reduction gear on the Tangent, everything appears to be in order with sufficient grease.

My goal is a light weight (sub 100 lbs), off-road, enduro ebike. I would like to be able to achieve at least 45 mph top speed and cruising speed around 30 mph. Range greater than 30 miles is a must (40 miles + would be ideal). Legality is not an issue as I will be riding this bike off-road only. I would prefer to keep functional pedals to help increase range and keep the mountain bike feel (and also just in case I over estimate my range and have to pedal home). The end product does not need to be totally silent, but it must be significantly quieter than a motorbike. Budget is not too much of a concern (maybe $5k-$6k max?) but I would like to stick with the Giant frame if possible.

The trails I want to ride this bike on are a mix of smooth hard pack dirt and rough rocky terrain with some hills.

So far I have built 4 bbshd hard tail bikes, 3 of which with Luna's "Ludicrous" controllers. They are set to 50 amps max w/ 52v pushing around 2.5kw max. I find the performance of the bbshd at 50 amps pretty decent, but my goal with this build is to step up to the next level in terms of power. I considered building a bbshd with a steel gear and an ASI controller at 72v, but unfortunately the Giant frame will not allow a bbshd to fit.

Now here's my dilemma... Should I get a replacement Castle controller and try to get the Tangent up to it's original full potential? Should I try a different controller and push my 3210 to it's limits? Or should I scrap the Tangent drive completely and go for something else? I'm beginning to doubt that the 3kw 3210 is going to give me the power that I'm after. I think a 6kw Tangent would probably be the sweet spot, but with Dave M.I.A., I'm a little hesitant to look for a used 3220 Tangent. I'm used to riding powerful motorcycles, both sport bikes and dirt bikes, so I want to feel some power and acceleration. I know that there are very powerful hub motors out there that can give me the power that I want, but I'm not sure that having that much weight in the real wheel is going to do well with rough rocky terrain. Maybe a cyc x1 pro? The Kranked Hyperdrive looks cool but seems pricey for only 2750 watts nominal. I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty and go for a DIY solution. I enjoy the hobby and would like to improve my skills and knowledge with this build.

Current Build;
2005 Giant Team DH - Complete Bike (Stock) - 26" Wheels
14s 22ah LiPo (2x 7s in series)
Cycle Analyst v3
Tangent Ascent w/ Astro 3210 (3kw)
Castle Creations Phoenix Edge HV80 (possibly malfunctioning)
Domino Twist Throttle

Thanks
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Last edited by skidmark on May 31 2020 8:00am, edited 1 time in total.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by MadRhino » May 10 2020 12:16pm

Your solution is a bigger motor, but it will force you to re-design your bike. A bigger motor can’t be fitted under the down tube, so it is going in the triangle. Then your battery has to be re-positioned. The triangle size of this bike can accommodate as big as 40 hp motor, if it is carefully selected. Yet that may be too much for the bike length and geometry. There is quite a good choice of motors. You need to think the mounting brackets and the disc side drivetrain, and choose accordingly.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 10 2020 12:22pm

What motor would you suggest based on my needs?

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by MadRhino » May 10 2020 3:11pm

skidmark wrote:
May 10 2020 12:22pm
What motor would you suggest based on my needs?
Well, your top speed and power requirements are not very high, and should normally be attained with the motor that you have. So the first thing I would do is to buy a better controller and try to get the best out of this one. Then, if you still find that it is not capable enough, either start a new build with a big motor, or strip this one and re-design it around one.

There are so many motors out there that can be used for mid mount, and I have no first hand experience with them to recommend one. I sure would not build from a kit, and probably be looking for motors rated 10+ kw around 25 lbs.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

markz   100 GW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by markz » May 10 2020 4:01pm

skidmark wrote:
May 10 2020 12:22pm
What motor would you suggest based on my needs?
18kw Cyclone mid drive
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/motor.html
See how long the bicycle components last.

OK Seriously, the 3kw and the 4kw coaxial are decently priced.

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 10 2020 4:13pm

Thanks MadRhino & Markz for the input.

I'm trying to figure out what controller would work on the 3210 other than the Castle which I'm already pushing the limits of by running 14s, as well as the motor for that matter... If I'm going to buy a new controller I would like to get one that will work with the next iteration of this build when I decide to go bigger.

With that being said I'm leaning towards scrapping the 3210 and going for a bigger motor. 4kw Cyclone has been on my mind.. also considering the LR Big Block mid drive.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by Drunkskunk » May 10 2020 4:31pm

The CC Phoenix Edge HV 80 is rated for 12 S, 50.4v max. So if you had it on 14s, there's your problem.
I haven't contacted them in a few years, but CC used to do repair work if you did something beyond warranty, like smacked it into the ground at 180mph. It was never cheap, but was usually cheaper than a new controller.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by spinningmagnets » May 10 2020 5:07pm

2nd test ride and I was able to get up to just over 2,300 watts and then suddenly the power to the wheel would cut off
Does the system have an "over temperature" shutdown feature?

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 10 2020 5:39pm

Great question! and so awesome to get a reply from spinningmagnets!!

The CA Temperature settings are as follows;
Temp. Sensor Type = Linear Type
Temp. Offset = 0.45 V
Temp. Scale = 262.1 deg.C/V
Threshold Temp. = 150 deg. C
Max Temp. = 160 deg. C

On both test rides I was keeping an eye on the temp and the max temp I saw was around 65-75 deg. C. I could hold my hand on the controller and the motor without a problem.

I am still unable to connect to the Castle ESC so I don't know if there's an over temp. setting in there that I missed but when it was working before the 2nd test ride I did not notice anything in there that jumped out at me as a potential limiting factor.

edit; I will say that I'm not sure but it seemed to feel that the power was cutting off quicker/easier towards the end of the test ride as though heat was a factor...

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 11 2020 7:45pm

After much deliberation I have decided to stick with the 3210 Tangent setup and see if I can get it running up to it's full potential. I think this motor should have the guts to achieve my goals for this bike.

With that being said, I've been doing a ton of research but I'm still struggling to find solid answers on a few basic questions...

#1: What's the best controller that I could buy that would allow me to comfortably run 14s on the Astro 3210 at 50-60 amps continuous? I would prefer to get a controller that is relatively plug and play with the CA, and/or something that would be good to have around just in case I decide to ditch the 3210. From what I've read, the Grin Phaserunner seems to be a good choice w/ plug and play for the CA, but the spec says 45a cont. w/ 96a peak. Will I be pushing this controller too hard at 14s x 50-60 amps for sustained throttle on long straights (maybe 1 min)?

#2: How can I be sure that my Astro 3210 is 100% operational? What can I do to test this motor to make sure it wasn't damaged by the previous owner?

#3: Am I stupid for trying to run this setup at 14s and should I just buy a new LiPo battery setup for 12s, get a new Castle HV80? The main reason I chose the 14s LiPo is because the Dave himself once told me "Use 14s voltage if you can, the motor snaps to life quite a bit stronger than 12s." ... although HV80 is rated at 80a max cont. x 48v = 3,840w which is greater overall power than 14s running at 60a...

Plz help :'(

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by MadRhino » May 11 2020 8:13pm

Phaserunner is good, but it won’t pull the best of your motor power capability. You need bigger, especially if you want to upgrade the motor some day.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 11 2020 8:22pm

Thanks MadRhino. What would you suggest? ASI BAC2000?

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by MadRhino » May 12 2020 3:04am

skidmark wrote:
May 11 2020 8:22pm
Thanks MadRhino. What would you suggest? ASI BAC2000?
Nucular 12 fet would be your best choice. But, you’d have to learn, and wait some.
https://nucular.tech/

Cheap choice is an 18 fet Infineon based controller, the like of Crystalyte or Yuangking. Easiest to program, but they do need some upgrading work. Most that can be found today are coming with 4115 mosfets that need to be replaced with 4110. Then mod the shunt to lower impedance by half, and up you go with a very powerful yet cheap controller. The mini18 too, can be mod the same way.

Easy choice is a Kelly. Not the easiest to program but the program is sound. Need no mod and reliable.

Many other choices out there. Many that have software problems too. I hate buying a controller and the software/com is crap.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 12 2020 6:33am

Thank you MadRhino. That is good info. I will do some research on the controllers you mentioned

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by briangv99 » May 15 2020 11:29pm

skidmark wrote:
May 11 2020 7:45pm

#1: What's the best controller that I could buy that would allow me to comfortably run 14s on the Astro 3210 at 50-60 amps continuous?

#2: How can I be sure that my Astro 3210 is 100% operational? What can I do to test this motor to make sure it wasn't damaged by the previous owner?

#3: Am I stupid for trying to run this setup at 14s and should I just buy a new LiPo battery setup for 12s, get a new Castle HV80? The main reason I chose the 14s LiPo is because the Dave himself once told me "Use 14s voltage if you can, the motor snaps to life quite a bit stronger than 12s." ... although HV80 is rated at 80a max cont. x 48v = 3,840w which is greater overall power than 14s running at 60a...

Plz help :'(
Hi, fellow Tangent owner here. I'm in the process of getting my 3220 20:1 up and running again, but this time on a Haro 357 nine frame that I've had sitting around for several years.

The general agreement on the best controller is Castle Talon 120 HV, even up to 14s. Dave tried ASI 2000 and came back to the Castle controller every time for best start up torque and power coupled with the Astro motor. The Talon will hold 50-60a comfortable, with spikes up to 240a according to Dave.

Ideally, once you've reached the limits of the 3210 motor, upgrade to a 3220 motor if you can. If your tangent is the later integrated motor housing type you may not have that option. With the 40:1 gear box you'll have monster low speed torque available, but the 20:1 cycloidal box provides a better speed range. I remember Dave saying that may be the gearbox can be reconfigured from 40:1 to 20:1, but not sure.

As for motor damage check with a multimeter if there is a short between the motor housing and the phase wire. Also pop the end off the motor can a check for dark winding, a sure sign that the motor is cooked. The samarium rotor magnets generally can take quite a bit more heat that Neodymium magnets.

Keep at it, good luck!

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by Ham » May 17 2020 4:07am

Tangent 3220 rider here...I second the castle controllers...I have been between the HV160 and the talon 120, both have seen 4kw bursts but only if I don't use the gears..the torque spins through the gears so quickly I rarely see above 90amps draw for a few seconds. The X1 pro kit looks like a copy with interesting set up of controllers worth looking at but I suspect it is no where near as powerful as a 3220 set up with hv 160 controller.

40 mph is easy and 30mph cruising a non issue. I have seen just shy of 50mph with taller gearing way back...40 mph is plenty on a push bike IMO...no balanced wheels makes speed wobble an issue for me:)

Fwiw I have run mine through an Alfine 8 IGH for about 1500-2000 miles with the same chain and chainrings and only one change in alfine 8 sprocket.

12s16p sony vtc5a cells fwiw. I ran 14s previously on lipo bricks and the controllers were fine.
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet

skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 17 2020 5:55pm

Thank you very much Ham & briangv99, this is great info. Awesome to get some feedback from some fellow Tangent owners.

On the advice of MadRhino and BrunoPOWEEER I pre-ordered the Nucular 12F but it's going to take a while to get in and I want to do some testing and learning about this motor. Maybe I'll pick up a HV160 or 120 and see if I can get it running in the meantime, I was hoping to get at least 60amps out of it at 14s.

Ideally I would like to upgrade to the 3220 in the future it seems like it's exactly what I've been dreaming of in terms of power and weight.

Thanks briangv99 for the tip on checking the motor for a short and inspecting the windings. I'll give that a try tonight.

One more question, does anyone know how I can find out what the winding is (number of turns) on this motor? There is a small 6 (or maybe 9) inscribed on the back of the drive. Could it be an indication of 6T? I asked the previous owner but he had no clue. I'm trying to figure out if there's a scientific way of finding out... Maybe I could run the drive at a specific voltage/amperage and measure the unloaded rpm's at the shaft with a tach strobe? Any advice?

Attached are a few pictures of the drive. If anyone knows what generation this build is that would be very helpful. There is a Phillips screw plug oil port, not sure if that helps with identification. I haven't fully disassembled the motor from the mount yet but so far as I can tell it looks like it should be up-gradable?
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 17 2020 5:59pm

Found this chart on an old ES thread....

viewtopic.php?t=83838&start=25
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Need Advice for High Powered Mid-Drive

Post by skidmark » May 22 2020 9:24pm

Update;
My current goal is to measure the Kv of the motor and compare the 5T specs of the 3210 from astroflight.com to figure out how many turns this motor is.

I'm planning to use the "drill method" to determine Kv... https://youtu.be/JD1gplvhGrc

So in order to get direct access to the motor shaft I started tearing down the tangent drive. Everything went smooth and easy until I reached this point (see pic's below)...

It looks like the shaft is pressed into this sleeve adapter piece (not sure what the technical name would be).

I can rotate the motor freely in the housing so I know it's being held captive by the shaft. I think that the only thing holding it in is the press fit friction of this sleeve but I can't be sure. At the moment the only idea I can think of would be to cut a suitable hole in a piece of wood big enough to clear the motor but small enough to contain the housing and apply pressure directly to the motor shaft but I don't want to damage the motor so I'm asking for some help.

Anyone with Tangent experience know how to remove the motor?

Thanks
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by skidmark » May 31 2020 8:41am

Update & Thread Name Changed. Formally "Need Advice on High Powered Mid Drive". Decided to change the name to better suit the subject of the thread. I'm new to this forum so I hope that's not frowned upon. Please someone let me know if I shouldn't change subject name. Thx

After several days of staring at the drive I decided f*** it and pressed the shaft out of the adapter. Success! Motor dropped out like butter. Felt great to hold the bare motor in my hand for the first time.

I used a 3d printed cup to retain the housing and applied force directly on the motor shaft. Worked like a charm. Pic below

Next I used the drill method mentioned in my previous post to measure the frequency and voltage at the phase wires. Average of all 3 combinations was 164.4 Hz & 7.71 v. Plugged the numbers into the calculators on radiocontrolinfo.com and came up with 2,466 avg. rpm & 238.1 Kv

That's the magic number I was looking for. According to Astroflight.com (https://www.astroflight.com/explanation ... ology.html) "...a 3210 4T has a Kv of 339 RPM/V. From this, it can be determined that the Kv of a 3210 8T is 165 RPM/V (339 RPM/V * 4T / 8T = 165 RPM/V)"

At 238.1 this puts me very close to 1/2 way between the 4T @ 339 Kv & the 8T @ 165 Kv. This seems to indicate a winding of 6T and would confirm the reason for the 6 inscribed in the back of the motor.

I also measured the resistance between the phase wires and it was nearly zero. Saw a glimpse of 0.1 ohm on my multimeter for a second or two but all 3 rested at 0 ohm. No short between any of the phase wires and housing as briangv99 recommended I test for.

Seems like the motor is in good enough shape to move forward. I ordered an HV160 to do some testing while I wait for the Nucular. Also ordered some new bullet connectors & XT150's to redo all the wiring with. Not sure if I want to keep the CA and shunt in the loop or just try to drive the HV160 directly the way Matt Shumaker did using the servo tester... https://youtu.be/C7Q9MAUlKX8. The CA has some great features, and I would like to keep it as part of the final build, but I'm debating whether it's a variable I want to eliminate for the moment and come back to later if nothing else but just for testing purposes.

Couple other thoughts I am still contemplating... The original build had extremely long leads from the battery to the old HV80. I read on an ES thread that this can cause problems viewtopic.php?t=20223. I'm also reading about the installation of a capacitor bank on the leads of the controller. I still have research to do to understand what the ideal combo and wiring of caps for this setup but if anyone has any advice please share.

Thanks
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by skidmark » Jun 21 2020 7:39pm

Update;
Making slow but steady progress. I decided the best way to move forward would be to eliminate as many variables as possible. Starting with the throttle.

Following in Matt Shumaker's footsteps https://youtu.be/C7Q9MAUlKX8, I bought an Astro 105 servo tester, de-soldered the 10k pot, and wired the Domino throttle in directly. Looking at the pwm signal on the scope I saw a perfect 1ms-2ms smooth linear transition twisting the Domino zero to full throttle! Even though Matt said it would work in the video, I still surprised at how easy and well it worked, especially considering the domino throttle was a 5k ohm resistance and the servo tester pot was 10k, but hey I'm not complaining.

I'm using a CC BEC Pro to power the throttle circuit for now. I know this is way overkill for just the throttle, but it's a nice unit, and I can always downsize to a smaller buck converter later.

My next step was to discharge the two 7s batteries down to 25.2v each so I could test the motor and throttle circuit within the rated voltage of the HV160. I printed a little motor mount to hold the motor in place for testing.

Unfortunately one of the cells on my 7s lipo seems to be failing... guess it's time for a new battery :(

Next step after I get a new battery will be to test the throttle circuit and get the HV160 dialed in. Assuming everything goes smoothly I'll reassemble the Tangent drive and see what this little motor can do under load. I still have my doubts that it will be a substantial step up in power over the bbshd at 50a. But, it's still a victory to me if I can at least get everything running at it's full potential. And besides, if the 3210 and HV160 won't do it, I think the 3220 and the Nucular will :twisted:
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by skidmark » Jul 13 2020 8:26pm

Success!

Got the bike cobbled together with the stand alone throttle circuit. CA removed for now. Finally got the full power from the 3210!

Excuse the mess of wiring. Everything needs tidying up but this was just for a quick test run to see if it would work.

Changes included;
1. CC HV160 ESC (upgraded from HV80)
2. Much shorter 8awg connection from battery to esc
3. Delete CA + direct throttle control

The Tangent drive worked great. Loads of torque. So much that the poor old derailleur couldn't hold up. Anything more than roughly 1/3 throttle and the chain was jumping the rear cog with ease. I had to baby the throttle to get it up to speed. But at least I'm getting full power from the 3210 and no more cutting out.

The throttle did have quite a long dead zone off the start of the twist. But, once it started to pick up it was very smooth and linear with nice modulation and control all the way up. My guess is that the throttle start point needs a bit of calibrating in the CC ESC programming.

Next step is getting the drive train sorted out. The current plan is to switch to a single speed with a dedicated chain tensioner and a nice beefy 1/8 single speed kmc z510 chain. Hopefully a perfectly straight chain line and plenty of upwards tension on the chain will be enough to keep the chain from skipping teeth on the rear cog and I can get all the power to the rear wheel.

Also need to upgrade the brakes... the old original Hayes do not have nearly the stopping power needed for this beast.

Still got a lot of work to do to get everything where I want it. But it's a labor of love. And, now more than ever, the 3220 is calling me from afar...
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skidmark   1 mW

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Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by skidmark » Jul 19 2020 6:54pm

2 steps forward, 1 step back

New brakes and drive train upgrade installed.

Brakes are SRAM Code RSC w/ 203 mm rotors. Beautiful quality, stopping power, and feel. 5 stars. The contact point adjustment is lovely. No complaints here.

Drive train converted to single speed with Chris King 14 tooth single speed rear cog and Surley chain tensioner (up-ward tension mode). KMC Z510 1/8 chain. Still skipping :(

I'm getting a little more torque out of the single speed setup but it's still skipping badly. I ran this exact same setup on a hard-tail Scott w/ 52v 50a bbshd (Luna Ludi) with no problems... The Tangent must be producing too much torque for such a small rear cog. That's the only thing I can think of. Barely 1/2 throttle and it skips.

Guess it's back to the drawing board with the drive train. I suppose I'll have to do some more research on how some of the high power mid-drive guys are doing it. Would love to hear some feedback from 3220 Tangent owners. How are you guys getting all the power down without skipping teeth?

briangv99? Ham? Any advice would be much appriciated.

...Also, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I've been posting in the wrong category... Haven't seen any replies for a couple of months and 6 posts with no comments.. Mods/anybody, am I posting in the wrong place? Should I try creating a new thread in the "E-Bike Build Threads / Photos & Video" area?
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MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by MadRhino » Jul 19 2020 7:11pm

Yep. Your cog is small and,
-check chain line alignment
-check for proper chain tensioner on the rear.

Since your thread became a building thread, it could go there. But nobody will mind that it stays here.

I did ride the older Avid Code, long time ago. I liked their lever very much.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: Tangent Giant DH Revival Build

Post by MadRhino » Jul 19 2020 7:18pm

Your cog is small but

-check for matching chain and cog pitch
-check for proper chain tensioning on the rear
-check for chain line alignment

I did ride the older Avid code, long time ago. I liked the feel of their lever very much.

Since your thread became a building thread, it could go there but nobody will mind that it stays here.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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