48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Limbs   10 mW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Limbs » Sep 17 2020 1:59pm

Tommm wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:47pm
The cells are unlikely to be rated even 10a max, but you will be drawing 10a+resistance losses from them, with the 48v battery, each cells sees 8a max.
You may wish to check your calculations, I make it 5.5 amps max draw per cell for 14S4P & 4.4 amps max for 14S5P (+resistance in both cases). Yes the 48c battery has more capacity, but the 52v will provide more speed; you pays your money, you takes your choice.

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Tommm » Sep 17 2020 2:26pm

Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 1:59pm
Tommm wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:47pm
The cells are unlikely to be rated even 10a max, but you will be drawing 10a+resistance losses from them, with the 48v battery, each cells sees 8a max.
You may wish to check your calculations, I make it 5.5 amps max draw per cell for 14S4P & 4.4 amps max for 14S5P (+resistance in both cases). Yes the 48c battery has more capacity, but the 52v will provide more speed; you pays your money, you takes your choice.
Yea I calculated the values for the 40a controller... the 500w kit comes with a 22a.

Still 52x19.2=998 vs 1152 Wh... easy choice for me for $30 extra.

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Sep 17 2020 3:17pm

Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 1:59pm
Tommm wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:47pm
The cells are unlikely to be rated even 10a max, but you will be drawing 10a+resistance losses from them, with the 48v battery, each cells sees 8a max.
You may wish to check your calculations, I make it 5.5 amps max draw per cell for 14S4P & 4.4 amps max for 14S5P (+resistance in both cases). Yes the 48c battery has more capacity, but the 52v will provide more speed; you pays your money, you takes your choice.
Is it 8% more speed with 52V as stated before? What is the top speed approximately with 48V Vs 52? Good quess is enough

Limbs   10 mW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Limbs » Sep 17 2020 3:21pm

Laissez wrote:
Sep 17 2020 3:17pm
Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 1:59pm
Tommm wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:47pm
The cells are unlikely to be rated even 10a max, but you will be drawing 10a+resistance losses from them, with the 48v battery, each cells sees 8a max.
You may wish to check your calculations, I make it 5.5 amps max draw per cell for 14S4P & 4.4 amps max for 14S5P (+resistance in both cases). Yes the 48c battery has more capacity, but the 52v will provide more speed; you pays your money, you takes your choice.
Is it 8% more speed with 52V as stated before? What is the top speed approximately with 48V Vs 52? Good quess is enough
Yes, a shade under 8% faster, I can tell you how fast mine goes (as I did), but not the one you're looking at, you'll need to ask the seller what kv (revs per volt) it is, then it can be calculated, well the no load speed anyway.

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Sep 17 2020 4:55pm

Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 3:21pm
Yes, a shade under 8% faster, I can tell you how fast mine goes (as I did), but not the one you're looking at, you'll need to ask the seller what kv (revs per volt) it is, then it can be calculated, well the no load speed anyway.
Actually I find out this thread here where are some specs of XF15 but I don't understand them myself. But it seems like motor is capable at least 45km/h and over 60km/h wheel in the air and at 48V it can put out 1200W: viewtopic.php?t=103376

Here are the specs:
mechhead wrote:
Nov 21 2019 7:08am
Here is a new geared hub I've been looking at as something better than the swx bafang for a variety of reasons that will become aparent.

having ordered two to test and hot up, they arrived swiftly direct from mxus factory

Photos to come

a cassett version to go in a wheel with steel gears (aliexpress) 47.5mm dia 36t
and a freewheel threaded version to convert to a crossbreak style mid drive

inside the motor

6 turns 10 strands .5mm copper
the usual nylon gears
a multi screw mounted sun gear ( good potential for regen mod )
20 pole 18 slot 120mmx18mm stator with .35mm laminates

it was a small battle to work out which version of this motor has the meatiest windings

when asked about motor speeds i eventually got the spec sheets for their two fastest motors
and they claimed that the 48v 386rpm version was fastest so i asked for the spec sheet for the fastest 36 volt one and ...

48v 386 rpm
36v 349rpm

ok convert to kv and actual motor rpm gear ratio 5:1

so motor a (48v 386rpm 10t) 5*386=1930 rpm of motor @48v

to derive KV : rpm/volts 1930/48=40.2833 rpm/v



so motor b (36v 349rpm 6t) 5*349=1745 rpm motor @36v

to derive KV :rpm/volts 1745/36=48.47222 rpm/v

so we have a winner the badly named "36v" motor is the badass with 6 turns to the others 10

so speed it up to 48v

motor b (36v349rpm) take motor KV and multiply by new voltage of 48



48.47222*48=2326.667rpm now add gearbox reduction to give hubshell rpm or that of thebuilt wheel at noload speed and you get 2326.667/5=465rpm of wheel



so to compare motors properly at same voltage noload speed and you get

motor A (48v386rpm) @48v = 386rpm

motor B (36v349rpm) @48v = 465rpm

so commutation frequency 2326rpm X 10 pole pairs / 60seconds = 387hz

correct me you lot if im wrong but isn't 387hz a way short of sensible frequency limit for .35mm lams ?

what if we delta it

any here are spec sheets of motor load curves if i can make the attachments work
valsam wrote:
Dec 05 2019 5:41pm
I orderd this kit https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000258 ... 4c4dHdGRlT and from what the seller told me the motor is this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3282513 ... 76ddeHfVDK
witch it says it is 48V Cassette 425RPM .
So mechhead it looks like mine is the motor B (36v349rpm) @48v = 465rpm one.
(Customer reviews say that At 54 volts on the idling bike gives out 63 km/h(about 39 mph) on a 28 "wheel,and real top speed on 28" or 700c wheel is 44-46km/h(about 28mph).

Limbs   10 mW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Limbs » Sep 17 2020 6:17pm

I don't have the time to read the whole of that thread, but having a quick scan though it, it appears that someone may have had problems with their battery; I was already going to suggest that you consider upgrading the battery to one with decent, branded cells. If you get one of those in the listing you will have either 56 or 65 cells and it only takes one of those to go bad and you have a useless battery; not good odds with cheap Chinese cells!

Reading the listing again, it does actually state 440 RPM @ 48v; multiply that by the circumference of YOUR tyre, measured in meters, multiply by 60, then divide by 1000 & you have the no load speed in KPH for a 48v battery. If you want the figure for a 52v battery, divide the speed calculated for the 48v battery by 13, then multiply by 14.

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Sep 18 2020 4:28am

Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 6:17pm
I don't have the time to read the whole of that thread, but having a quick scan though it, it appears that someone may have had problems with their battery; I was already going to suggest that you consider upgrading the battery to one with decent, branded cells. If you get one of those in the listing you will have either 56 or 65 cells and it only takes one of those to go bad and you have a useless battery; not good odds with cheap Chinese cells!

Reading the listing again, it does actually state 440 RPM @ 48v; multiply that by the circumference of YOUR tyre, measured in meters, multiply by 60, then divide by 1000 & you have the no load speed in KPH for a 48v battery. If you want the figure for a 52v battery, divide the speed calculated for the 48v battery by 13, then multiply by 14.
Actually his problem wasn't with battery after all and no need to read whole conversation Quoted the spec parts in my post. Where would you suggest to get battery? I'm open to other battery options also.

Limbs   10 mW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Limbs » Sep 18 2020 4:55am

Laissez wrote:
Sep 18 2020 4:28am
Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 6:17pm
I don't have the time to read the whole of that thread, but having a quick scan though it, it appears that someone may have had problems with their battery; I was already going to suggest that you consider upgrading the battery to one with decent, branded cells. If you get one of those in the listing you will have either 56 or 65 cells and it only takes one of those to go bad and you have a useless battery; not good odds with cheap Chinese cells!

Reading the listing again, it does actually state 440 RPM @ 48v; multiply that by the circumference of YOUR tyre, measured in meters, multiply by 60, then divide by 1000 & you have the no load speed in KPH for a 48v battery. If you want the figure for a 52v battery, divide the speed calculated for the 48v battery by 13, then multiply by 14.
Actually his problem wasn't with battery after all and no need to read whole conversation Quoted the spec parts in my post. Where would you suggest to get battery? I'm open to other battery options also.
The problem with what you quoted, was that there was some confusion as to which motor you would be getting; motor A or motor B, so I had a quick scan of the thread, but there was too much there for the time I had, so I looked again at the Ali-Express listing and the specs were there 440 RPM @ 48v.

I'm afraid I can't help you with respect to an alternative battery supplier, but there's bound to be one somewhere on Ali. The problem you will then have is trying to get an equally neat installation, with the controller integrated into the battery pack etc. You could ask ChamRider if it's possible for them to supply branded cells or check with them the warranty situation with what they supply. Personally I would much prefer branded cells, but as with the 48/52v decision, it's up to you & obviously depends on your budget too.

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Sep 18 2020 5:13am

Limbs wrote:
Sep 18 2020 4:55am
Laissez wrote:
Sep 18 2020 4:28am
Limbs wrote:
Sep 17 2020 6:17pm
I don't have the time to read the whole of that thread, but having a quick scan though it, it appears that someone may have had problems with their battery; I was already going to suggest that you consider upgrading the battery to one with decent, branded cells. If you get one of those in the listing you will have either 56 or 65 cells and it only takes one of those to go bad and you have a useless battery; not good odds with cheap Chinese cells!

Reading the listing again, it does actually state 440 RPM @ 48v; multiply that by the circumference of YOUR tyre, measured in meters, multiply by 60, then divide by 1000 & you have the no load speed in KPH for a 48v battery. If you want the figure for a 52v battery, divide the speed calculated for the 48v battery by 13, then multiply by 14.
Actually his problem wasn't with battery after all and no need to read whole conversation Quoted the spec parts in my post. Where would you suggest to get battery? I'm open to other battery options also.
The problem with what you quoted, was that there was some confusion as to which motor you would be getting; motor A or motor B, so I had a quick scan of the thread, but there was too much there for the time I had, so I looked again at the Ali-Express listing and the specs were there 440 RPM @ 48v.

I'm afraid I can't help you with respect to an alternative battery supplier, but there's bound to be one somewhere on Ali. The problem you will then have is trying to get an equally neat installation, with the controller integrated into the battery pack etc. You could ask ChamRider if it's possible for them to supply branded cells or check with them the warranty situation with what they supply. Personally I would much prefer branded cells, but as with the 48/52v decision, it's up to you & obviously depends on your budget too.
Sorry forgot to say that what I'm looking at is presumably option B. I think I'll just try out my luck with these Chinese sells.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Tommm » Sep 18 2020 6:19pm

Laissez wrote:
Sep 17 2020 7:47am
Tommm wrote:
Sep 17 2020 7:34am
Laissez wrote:
Sep 17 2020 6:18am
I was looking at geared motors for their smaller size, lighter weight and better hill climb for occasional climbing. Most direct drives i've seen are huge plates. Also their dd sets doesn't have waterproof connectors and battery integrated controller. Chamrider 500W MXUS XF15C has 52V 19,2Ah is 14S4P / 48V 24Ah is 13S5P battery options. Is the 48V option better as you stated with the 1000W kit?
Yea, it looks like the xf15c will be your best bet. The 48v is better just by looking at cell type being the same and getting 0.7kg extra pure cell weight. Have you heard anyone say I wish I had less range?
Don't bother with the charger upgrade, you can get a 5a pink metal charger for the price of the upgrade alone.
I would pick up a set of cogs though.
https://aliexpress.com/item/32830428964.html
Yep overall that xf15c kit looks like the best. Thanks for your tips and help. I'll post here when the kit arrives.
Got my kit, so far so good
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103169&p=1584278#p1584278

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Sep 19 2020 1:08pm

Ok I bought the 48V 24Ah XF15 kit after all. Thanks for all help! I'll update after I get the kit. Any recommendations for torque arms?

I was thinking about 2x of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14mm-E-Bike- ... 4573811799

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 11 2020 2:15pm

Suggestions for how to fit the battery? Should I drill new holes or zip tie it or something else?

Image
Tommm wrote:
Sep 18 2020 6:19pm
Got my kit, so far so good
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1584278
Got any tips?

markz   100 GW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by markz » Nov 11 2020 2:59pm

I use hose clamps and a dollar store rubber mat to help protect the case from marks
for my similar style battery in a case like yours.

Plastic zip ties will break

Plastic zip ties with metal locker will break

Plastic zip ties with a load rating of 100lbs will break

Plastic zip ties of any sort are super easy to twist off and break by a thief. Had my old battery stolen that way, though I had 2 on for range testing purposes.

Metal zip ties could work well.

Hose clamps are the best, though a bit bulky on the locker part.

You could look into the mounting mechanism for that battery case. I know I bought a mounting mechanism for my http://www.ebikes.ca/ battery, havent used it yet.

For Grintech batteries
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... ories.html

edit
I have been thinking of a way to mount my battery case. Heavy duty T-bolt clamps to fit around bicycle tube, drill a hole in the clamp and figure out a way to use a bolt to mount the battery case. The head of the bolt would be against the bicycle tube with the threads sticking up, then find a way to mount to holes in bottom of case.




Laissez wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:15pm
Suggestions for how to fit the battery? Should I drill new holes or zip tie it or something else?
[img]
Got any tips?

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 11 2020 5:18pm

markz wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:59pm
I use hose clamps and a dollar store rubber mat to help protect the case from marks
for my similar style battery in a case like yours.

Plastic zip ties will break

Plastic zip ties with metal locker will break

Plastic zip ties with a load rating of 100lbs will break

Plastic zip ties of any sort are super easy to twist off and break by a thief. Had my old battery stolen that way, though I had 2 on for range testing purposes.

Metal zip ties could work well.

Hose clamps are the best, though a bit bulky on the locker part.

You could look into the mounting mechanism for that battery case. I know I bought a mounting mechanism for my http://www.ebikes.ca/ battery, havent used it yet.

For Grintech batteries
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... ories.html

edit
I have been thinking of a way to mount my battery case. Heavy duty T-bolt clamps to fit around bicycle tube, drill a hole in the clamp and figure out a way to use a bolt to mount the battery case. The head of the bolt would be against the bicycle tube with the threads sticking up, then find a way to mount to holes in bottom of case.




Laissez wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:15pm
Suggestions for how to fit the battery? Should I drill new holes or zip tie it or something else?
[img]
Got any tips?
Thanks I'll look in to your suggestion and forget about zip ties. I'll definitely try hose clamps.

Something like this could work also? it seems to move the original bottle holder holes.

https://www.bikester.fi/708317.html

markz   100 GW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by markz » Nov 11 2020 7:37pm

I found there to be a problem with the battery moving position and the problem was I did not have the hose clamp tight enough. I had mine on the top of the top bar, with other square battery inside the triangle. I was paranoid that I would do it to tight but Grin makes quality products and wouldnt enclose their batteries in substandard battery cases like some other sellers do.

As for your link, I wouldnt trust that to hold up. Batteries are heavy. I'd be afraid the standoffs would break. I'd be good to copy that, but I wouldnt buy that.
Laissez wrote:
Nov 11 2020 5:18pm
Thanks I'll look in to your suggestion and forget about zip ties. I'll definitely try hose clamps.
Something like this could work also? it seems to move the original bottle holder holes.
https://www.bikester.fi/708317.html

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by AHicks » Nov 11 2020 8:16pm

I would encourage you to consider how you are going to stop a bike going 25mph reliably, in year around weather conditions.

Myself, I would not consider a bike that didn't have disc brakes.

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 12 2020 7:41am

AHicks wrote:
Nov 11 2020 8:16pm
I would encourage you to consider how you are going to stop a bike going 25mph reliably, in year around weather conditions.

Myself, I would not consider a bike that didn't have disc brakes.
I have hydraulic disc brakes on my bike.

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Tommm » Nov 12 2020 7:56am

Laissez wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:15pm
Suggestions for how to fit the battery? Should I drill new holes or zip tie it or something else?

Image
Tommm wrote:
Sep 18 2020 6:19pm
Got my kit, so far so good
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1584278
Got any tips?
Sure I got tips.
Image
Cargo strap on the green lines.
Cut off the blue part on the bottom. It gets in the way for the next step.
Drill holes into the alu 2 places on both sides, where the pink marks are. Use steel zip ties to wrap it through the holes and around your BB cups, this makes sure it doesn't hang to one side or slip out of the cargo straps.

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 13 2020 9:26am

Tommm wrote:
Nov 12 2020 7:56am
Laissez wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:15pm
Suggestions for how to fit the battery? Should I drill new holes or zip tie it or something else?

Image
Tommm wrote:
Sep 18 2020 6:19pm
Got my kit, so far so good
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1584278
Got any tips?
Sure I got tips.
Image
Cargo strap on the green lines.
Cut off the blue part on the bottom. It gets in the way for the next step.
Drill holes into the alu 2 places on both sides, where the pink marks are. Use steel zip ties to wrap it through the holes and around your BB cups, this makes sure it doesn't hang to one side or slip out of the cargo straps.
Thank you, I think I'll manage to do something with these tips.

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by 99t4 » Nov 13 2020 6:54pm

Wait! There's a much more elegant way. Rivet nuts, sometimes called Rivnuts. Bike mechanics commonly use them to repair broken/stripped water bottle holder bosses.

5mm is the normal water bottle holder size, you could probably fit 6mm into your frame if you want beefier. My 10 lbs. battery is doing fine with two 5mm rivnuts, although I am not wailing on it on technical tracks.

Not hard to use. Carefully drill the hole, insert the rivnut, set it with the setter tool (or use a longer bolt, nut, and some appropriate washers).

Rivet nuts generally available at better well-stocked (real) hardware stores, or online.

You'll find plenty of rivet nuts installation tutorials on the internets.

Laissez   10 W

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 14 2020 2:41pm

Is my torque arms correctly installed? I got them for both sides for maximum security:
Image
Image

E: just realized my torque arms are for 14mm axle and my axle is 12mm. Need to get new ones it seems.
99t4 wrote:
Nov 13 2020 6:54pm
Wait! There's a much more elegant way. Rivet nuts, sometimes called Rivnuts. Bike mechanics commonly use them to repair broken/stripped water bottle holder bosses.

5mm is the normal water bottle holder size, you could probably fit 6mm into your frame if you want beefier. My 10 lbs. battery is doing fine with two 5mm rivnuts, although I am not wailing on it on technical tracks.

Not hard to use. Carefully drill the hole, insert the rivnut, set it with the setter tool (or use a longer bolt, nut, and some appropriate washers).

Rivet nuts generally available at better well-stocked (real) hardware stores, or online.

You'll find plenty of rivet nuts installation tutorials on the internets.
Thanks, I'll do this maybe later, but I don't want to drill new holes at the time. Got few of these to mount the battery: https://www.tweekscycles.com/uk/zefal-g ... chizc199a/ and using stainless steel zip ties instead of plastic ones.

markz   100 GW

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by markz » Nov 14 2020 6:23pm

^Also get a smaller hose clamp. If that one is fine, remember to cut off the trailing unused tail of the hose clamp but till have enough clamp length to reuse it. Its a fine art to decide the proper length back there.

Some hose clamps have too much space with no track slots between where the track slots end and the screw jack. If you want to save the paint on the frame, use a piece of rubber or just fold over some duct tape and wrap around the frame stay.

Me, I just grab some steel that is 1/4" thick, but 3/8" may work but be sure there is enough beef. Angle grinder to make slots. I found with the various forms me ebikes have been in and bikes on, bicycles have a different orientation to how the dropout axle slot is. The good news is sometimes I got lucky and it would match up kinda close to a seat stay or chain stay and hose clamp it on making sure the axles been rotated the proper way in the slack. I found a little bit of slack in the axle movement really was all the bad and didnt really chew up the dropout axle slot on the frame all that bad. To each their own. I never bought no torque arms, just bought steel, cutoff wheels and hose clamps. The steel needed little notches for the hose clamps not to slide off.

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Re: 48V 500W vs 48V 1000W geared hub motor?

Post by Laissez » Nov 29 2020 7:01pm

Image

Any tips what kind of light I can attach here? What kind of voltage does it take?

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