Phaserunner acceleration

I've read some posts where users complain about slow acceleration
with the Phaserunner.

I want to use the Phaserunner with a MAC 10T and 48V / 52V batteries. Would the Phaserunner
also be a good decision in terms of acceleration?

I've also read that the following settings could improve the acceleration of the Phaserunner:

..maximum phase current set to 96 amps, and that you also have your throttle voltages mapped so that at full throttle the PR's output is at 100%.

Click to expand...

Can someone confirm who has a MAC and the Phaserunner that this settings
make the Phaserunner comparable to other controller with fast acceleration?

Are there other sine-wave controllers that would be compatible with a MAC
with fast acceleration?
My problem is, that the controller case have to be very small (max width: 55 mm,
max length: 150 mm ) in order to fit in the controller bracket of my frame.

neos said:

I've read some posts where users complain about slow acceleration
with the Phaserunner.

Click to expand...

I went looking for such a post here, and didn't see it. I'm curious what they said about it. I'm no expert on controllers, but I understand the Phaserunner has a "torque" throttle instead of a voltage/speed throttle control like the Chinese controller on my bicycle - and I imagine it may be the nature of such a control that it responds more gradually as you wring the throttle.

My throttle setting corresponds to a rotational speed, so if I'm sitting at a stop, and I turn the throttle a quarter of the way, the motor does what it can to accelerate to 10mph or whatever you get with 25%. The acceleration here depends on how powerful the motor is and the controller's current limit.

A "torque" control at 25%, on the other hand, will take longer to get the same motor to 10mph, but it will keep going from there to the maximum 35mph or so, still at 25% throttle. If you want full acceleration from the throttle, you have to ask for it, by turning it all the way up. It's desirable for a powerful setup, where you hardly ever want the full acceleration that a voltage control would give you, but I can see how it could feel "slow". My motor is a "1500W" direct drive, and I'm happy with a voltage control (as long as I have cruise control), but admittedly it's a little bumpy on the starts and not real good for slow maneuvering.

You need to translate your desired acceleration performance into phase/motor amps, separate from battery amps.

Then decide, is Phaserunner capable of delivering the amps your motor needs to give you that acceleration?

Of course, that assumes your motor and battery have the power capacity you need.

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers. Put your money on the highest C-rate batteries that you can afford, for they are the most important factor of acceleration. Then, any controller I guess, has (or should have) a way to bypass all limitations and let the battery feed full power for a few sec. Then, it is a matter of size mostly. Big motor, big controller, big battery= hard acceleration. At some point, you will realize that you need to work on the bike’s geometry, to make it able to use all the power that you havr.

It is not the power that is hard to achieve. It is the bike to take full advantage of it.

you can increase the torque ramp up setting in PR from 200ms to 50ms for better off the line. theres ES member Triketech and heres his trike

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/PowerAssist/HPV-MAC-V2.html

donn said:

neos said:

I've read some posts where users complain about slow acceleration
with the Phaserunner.

Click to expand...

I went looking for such a post here, and didn't see it. I'm curious what they said about it.

Click to expand...

I was referring to this posts:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=88521#p1510830
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107777

MadRhino said:

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers. Put your money on the highest C-rate batteries that you can afford, for they are the most important factor of acceleration

Click to expand...

Since only this Reention batteries will fit into my frame,
I could only choose between 48V and 52V batteries with 30A continuous current and 90A max current.

The question would be, could the Phaserunner provide the max available acceleration from this batteries
or is it somehow limited?
In this posts it reads like the Phaserunner is more optimized for quiet and smooth acceleration instead
of fast acceleration.

neos said:

I was referring to this posts:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=88521#p1510830
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107777

MadRhino said:

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers. Put your money on the highest C-rate batteries that you can afford, for they are the most important factor of acceleration

Click to expand...

Since only this Reention batteries will fit into my frame,
I could only choose between 48V and 52V batteries with 30A continuous current and 90A max current.

The question would be, could the Phaserunner provide the max available acceleration from this batteries
or is it somehow limited?

Click to expand...

I'd say yes, since your limiting factor for acceleration is clearly your battery. 14S5P wont' do it, even with great cells, but I guess it depends on what level of acceleration you're looking for.

There is a slight lag as it switches from Hall to FOC mode on a MAC. Otherwise equal to a 12 FET Infineon.

Since only this Reention batteries will fit into my frame...

Click to expand...

First thing I would do, is to see how many RC lipo bricks can fit in there, then I would be looking to fit a 2nd one on the bike. I mean, if acceleration is the priority, the battery need to be able to supply high power.

Then, I would buy a cheap 18 fet and mod it to feed close to motor saturation. That is how you would achieve the best power with the motor that you have. The only improvement then, would be to lace it in a smaller wheel to achieve the best possible acceleration.

If you want to keep and run your battery, I believe the phase runner should be able to pull more than it can feed, so the battery will always be the limitation factor.

MadRhino said:

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers.

Click to expand...

I think you mean “contactors”.

E-HP said:

I'd say yes, since your limiting factor for acceleration is clearly your battery. 14S5P wont' do it, even with great cells, but I guess it depends on what level of acceleration you're looking for.

Click to expand...

I want to get the max acceleration from the present components.
Since I already have the motor and the battery,
it's about what controller can provide the best acceleration
with the already existing components (battery, motor).
If the controller doesn't slow down the other components disproportionately,
then that would be sufficient.

Balmorhea said:

MadRhino said:

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers.

Click to expand...

I think you mean “contactors”.

Click to expand...

You can imagine whatever you want. I meant exactly what I wrote.

Expansive controllers with lots of software features are not making any better acceleration. They can give extra top speed, better efficiency, smoother operation and better control precision... but no controller can create power that a battery can’t feed. And, the simpler the controller, the simpler it is to make it feed the full power of the battery to the motor.

neos said:

I want to get the max acceleration from the present components.
Since I already have the motor and the battery,
it's about what controller can provide the best acceleration with the already existing components (battery, motor).
If the controller doesn't slow down the other components disproportionately,
then that would be sufficient.

Click to expand...

Since the battery pack is a consumable and most are crap quality, it will need periodic replacement anyway and as you get smarter its power capacity will improve a lot, you will likely end up with several.the

So, don't limit the controller power capacity to that of your current battery, get one big enough to push the power your motor needs to get your desired performance.

IOW the best power bottleneck is your being sensible, a desire for safety, and high motor temperature, not the controller nor battery.

MadRhino said:

Balmorhea said:

MadRhino said:

The most brutal acceleration can be achieved with the most simple controllers.

Click to expand...

I think you mean “contactors”.

Click to expand...

You can imagine whatever you want. I meant exactly what I wrote.

Click to expand...

Your prescription is correct for maximum acceleration. But you said "most brutal", and a contactor switching a brushed DC motor is definitely more brutal. Not in a good way.

neos said:

I want to get the max acceleration from the present components.
Since I already have the motor and the battery,
it's about what controller can provide the best acceleration
with the already existing components (battery, motor).
If the controller doesn't slow down the other components disproportionately,
then that would be sufficient.

Click to expand...

Then I agree with the big cheap controller route, then set the max current to whatever provides the best acceleration for you, while providing or trading off whatever level of protection you want for your battery.

While testing my current pack (52V 30A BMS) fully charged, if I bypass my Cycle Analyst, so connecting the throttle directly to the controller, and remove any current limits, my bike will do one of two things when I roll on the throttle. It will either wheelie if I roll it on slowly, or trip the BMS if I roll it on fast. I think it pulls a huge number of amps instantaneously, since I can pull 40A + without tripping my BMS during normal riding. I know I would kill my battery if it were a regular thing. Throttle is almost unusable if I do the same thing with lipos since the peak current is so much higher. The problem with all of this is once you get a taste of more acceleration that you currently have, then you'll be back to wanting more battery so you always have it.

E-HP said:

Then I agree with the big cheap controller route

Click to expand...

I get the impression he would have done just that and never posted the question in the first place, if he know of a big cheap controller with the small form factor. Does it exist?

No one doubts that common inexpensive controllers can deliver more acceleration than anyone needs, with the right battery etc. The question seems to be, whether the Phaserunner can. I see that the motor simulator offers two different Phaserunner configurations, "cold" and "hot", and the hot one loses a lot of torque at slow RPMs. I gather this is a protection for a heated up unit that's built into the controller, and it's referred to in the discussion linked above; just thought it might be interesting to see the effect charted out in detail.

donn said:

E-HP said:

Then I agree with the big cheap controller route

Click to expand...

I get the impression he would have done just that and never posted the question in the first place, if he know of a big cheap controller with the small form factor. Does it exist?

No one doubts that common inexpensive controllers can deliver more acceleration than anyone needs, with the right battery etc. The question seems to be, whether the Phaserunner can. I see that the motor simulator offers two different Phaserunner configurations, "cold" and "hot", and the hot one loses a lot of torque at slow RPMs. I gather this is a protection for a heated up unit that's built into the controller, and it's referred to in the discussion linked above; just thought it might be interesting to see the effect charted out in detail.

Click to expand...

Yes, the options are few. I was going to point the OP to the Luna Tiny Sine Wave controller, but it's currently out of stock. 40A continuous, so more than the battery is capable of, but pretty small 82mm x 52mm x 30mm.

when you change torque ramp up rate from 200ms to 50ms you accelerate 4x faster. the PR "feels" slow when you hit the throttle and then " zip" youre gone from 0 to 30mph in 6 seconds.

the battery looks like theyre using 35e, find out what cells are in it. 5p of 35e is only good for like a 20amp controller

how are you going to accelerate fast with a high resistance cell?

The ASI/BAC units now have a vendor that should support the user programming for that motor.

Sure wish the same could be said for Sevcon!

Nucular is tops, but 6+ month wait these days.

Sabvoton?

donn said:

I get the impression he would have done just that and never posted the question in the first place, if he know of a big cheap controller with the small form factor. Does it exist?

Click to expand...

That's what I em looking for. A small and quiet controller that fits into my frame that can provide max performance
with my existing components. And it should be compatible with the Cycle Analyst.
Since the motor has hall sensors it also should pass a speed signal to the CA so that the CA
can display the correct speed (also while coasting).

Therefore my post was about something like an assessment or a clarification by other users who already have experiences with
a Phaserunner and a MAC 10T.
After some negative posts regarding acceleration, there where at least some doubt whether the PR
would be the right controller in terms of acceleration.

donn said:

No one doubts that common inexpensive controllers can deliver more acceleration than anyone needs, with the right battery etc. The question seems to be, whether the Phaserunner can. I see that the motor simulator offers two different Phaserunner configurations, "cold" and "hot", and the hot one loses a lot of torque at slow RPMs. I gather this is a protection for a heated up unit that's built into the controller, and it's referred to in the discussion linked above; just thought it might be interesting to see the effect charted out in detail.

Click to expand...

To be clear, it's not about setting speed records. For me, it's about being able to move safely in traffic, for example after stopping at a traffic light.
Most of the time I try to avoid streets with heavy traffic.
But it cannot always be avoided.
In such case I want to be at least halfway on par with the rest of the traffic in terms of acceleration.

neos said:

To be clear, it's not about setting speed records. For me, it's about being able to move safely in traffic, for example after stopping at a traffic light.
Most of the time I try to avoid streets with heavy traffic.
But it cannot always be avoided.
In such case I want to be at least halfway on par with the rest of the traffic in terms of acceleration.

Click to expand...

I think the posts with concerns are for situations where the controller could be a bottleneck (big battery), but in your case, it should perform well. Based on what you described above, I put your system into the Grin motor simulator, and compared to my current settings (72V 35A) and 9C clone, and you should be able to zip across the intersection a little quicker than my set up, which feels pretty decent in those situations. The downside is that you get used to relying on the acceleration, and may take more chances in some situations