torque arms for using regen?

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Hummina Shadeeba   100 MW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 02 2020 12:08pm

The plate with the hole is too tight as intended. Filing it down to just fit sucks and will use the other version as it allows me to glue the part into the frame and then bang in the motor for an interference fit. See if that works first.

https://imgur.com/a/in7HXnv

One day be done these but I screwed up again and now have 700$ of silicone molds I won’t use as well as the same amount in machined abs the molds were made from. The chainring hit the clamp part and had to mirror image all parts to get the clamp on the non-drive side.


I’ve got two of these giant abs parts now that are trash or decorations. Luckily machined parts aren’t too expensive and think it’s was like 150$ w shipping
https://imgur.com/a/0CcuEMP
This will be a block of resin n fiberglass with the cells imbedded. The challenge being to make it strong enough to not crack or deform from being too soft and need repeated tightening of the clamp plate.

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E-HP   10 MW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by E-HP » Dec 03 2020 3:19pm

Wow, for all that money you could have hired someone to weld on new beefy dropouts and not have to worry anymore!

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 03 2020 4:34pm

That money went to the other parts not torque arms. The torque arms are pretty cheap at I think was 20$ each for the simple U shaped and 40$ for those w set screw.
Got bought out by my landlord and been on a spending spree. We got 50k to leave our place in sf.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by markz » Dec 03 2020 7:44pm

Damn, how does that work getting $50k to leave a rental before the lease is up. Have heard stories about it, might be a thing in Canada like Toronto but I've only heard about it with American rentals. Guess the old sell the property to a friend routine and boot em out doesnt work.

Well Hummina, now you can afford Grintechs torque arms.

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 03 2020 4:34pm
That money went to the other parts not torque arms. The torque arms are pretty cheap at I think was 20$ each for the simple U shaped and 40$ for those w set screw.
Got bought out by my landlord and been on a spending spree. We got 50k to leave our place in sf.

Hummina Shadeeba   100 MW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 03 2020 8:15pm

Haha the grin torque arm doesn’t get me excited. Something to do. Something to think about and design and spend it on.

In sf, and now the whole of California, there’s rent control, which in sf means if the building was made before 1979 and you’re in there the landlord has to either do a “buy out”, in which they give you whatever amount you both agree to to get you out, or they have to use the Ellis act and then all inhabitants only get 7.5k each, but then for the next 5 or 10 years, even if the property is sold it still can’t be rented out for more than you were paying, so if selling the place, as my landlord plans, she’s likely to get much less for it, so even at 50k buy out for us it’s going to be better for her when selling the place than the Ellis act.

The long sentence. We could’ve got more really and let her off easy.


And there’s also the possibility of the landlord getting their family in to get you out but that has requirements and she already pulled that with the people upstairs from us. Unlucky them.


But the new whole Cali rent control is different in that if ur in any place renting for over a year they can only raise the rent like 5% a year and they also need “just cause” to evict.


In sf where all properties sell for millions it makes more sense than the backwoods but I still like it. Call me a socialist.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by dogman dan » Dec 04 2020 6:32am

Wow, that's a nice windfall for your fun budget. I thought having my e bike burn my house was good, but we ended up with more like 20 thou extra after replacing everything we wanted to replace.

Id definitely be having a welder put pinch dropouts on your choice of frame with that budget.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 04 2020 2:51pm

im sure it would work but ugly. for the ultimate torque arm id like fat horizontal dropouts made with some integrated vertical grub screws. But even that has the potential to have the motor yanked off the back if the rear brake is locked up. what are those frames made specifically for hub motors using?

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by markz » Dec 04 2020 6:00pm

With your buyout, you can afford to get a CNC/Machinist company to do up some nice torque arms, but I'd only do that for a forever ebike build.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by dogman dan » Dec 05 2020 9:28am

Yeah, If I built it it would be butt ugly. I just meant you have the budget to get a professional to lazer cut some big ass beefy rear dropouts that can clamp onto your frame. This professional work should not have to be ugly in any way.

But realistically, even if you just added another welded on plate to double your existing dropouts thickness it should do the trick.

Use the same washer with a bolt attached method typical of any dirt motorcycle, to lock the axle in place lengthwise on the dropout.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 1:10pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQp8mLZU4U

I’d never seen how a motorcycle locks the rear wheel in. Horizontal dropout but a slot not open ended. The small rectangular part that is bolted on top of the dropout I don’t see the point. What’s it for? Does it disperse the pressure from the bolt to a wider area for just more friction. It even looks to be two smooth surfaces. That’s all I can guess. Makes me think a tightly clamped axle bolt can take a lot before the axle is pulled forward or backwards in the dropout. I know on track bikes it’s not an issue and no extra holding is needed but I didn’t expect to find what seems very similar on a motorcycle.


Markz I had a bunch made. 3 different versions. All for bmx horizontal dropouts, especially 14m dropouts. But designed based on my little knowledge of what’s out there or what’s needed.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by E-HP » Dec 05 2020 2:01pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 1:10pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQp8mLZU4U

I’d never seen how a motorcycle locks the rear wheel in. Horizontal dropout but a slot not open ended. The small rectangular part that is bolted on top of the dropout I don’t see the point. What’s it for?
Are you referring to the chain tension adjustment bolts?

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 2:14pm

E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:01pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 1:10pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQp8mLZU4U

I’d never seen how a motorcycle locks the rear wheel in. Horizontal dropout but a slot not open ended. The small rectangular part that is bolted on top of the dropout I don’t see the point. What’s it for?
Are you referring to the chain tension adjustment bolts?
i see a chain tension adjustment bolt, and the dropout, and a small rectangular part that is bolted between the axle bolt and dropout.

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E-HP   10 MW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by E-HP » Dec 05 2020 2:24pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:14pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:01pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 1:10pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQp8mLZU4U

I’d never seen how a motorcycle locks the rear wheel in. Horizontal dropout but a slot not open ended. The small rectangular part that is bolted on top of the dropout I don’t see the point. What’s it for?
Are you referring to the chain tension adjustment bolts?
i see a chain tension adjustment bolt, and the dropout, and a small rectangular part that is bolted between the axle bolt and dropout.
Are you referring to the axle adjustment block that the chain tensioning bolt presses against to tighten the chain?

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 2:38pm

E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:24pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:14pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:01pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 1:10pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQp8mLZU4U

I’d never seen how a motorcycle locks the rear wheel in. Horizontal dropout but a slot not open ended. The small rectangular part that is bolted on top of the dropout I don’t see the point. What’s it for?
Are you referring to the chain tension adjustment bolts?
i see a chain tension adjustment bolt, and the dropout, and a small rectangular part that is bolted between the axle bolt and dropout.
Are you referring to the axle adjustment block that the chain tensioning bolt presses against to tighten the chain?
i think so. is the block's only purpose to work with the chain tensioning bolt? i see chain tensioners on bikes working directly with the axle not needing an extra part.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by E-HP » Dec 05 2020 2:54pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:38pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:24pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:14pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:01pm


Are you referring to the chain tension adjustment bolts?
i see a chain tension adjustment bolt, and the dropout, and a small rectangular part that is bolted between the axle bolt and dropout.
Are you referring to the axle adjustment block that the chain tensioning bolt presses against to tighten the chain?
i think so. is the block's only purpose to work with the chain tensioning bolt? i see chain tensioners on bikes working directly with the axle not needing an extra part.
The other common type locates the adjustment bolt at the and of the swingarm. One end is like an eye bolt with the axle going through it, and the bolt tension pull the axle back to increase chain tension.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 3:31pm

E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:54pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:38pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:24pm
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 2:14pm

i see a chain tension adjustment bolt, and the dropout, and a small rectangular part that is bolted between the axle bolt and dropout.
Are you referring to the axle adjustment block that the chain tensioning bolt presses against to tighten the chain?
i think so. is the block's only purpose to work with the chain tensioning bolt? i see chain tensioners on bikes working directly with the axle not needing an extra part.
The other common type locates the adjustment bolt at the and of the swingarm. One end is like an eye bolt with the axle going through it, and the bolt tension pull the axle back to increase chain tension.
is it still just the bolt clamping force that stops the axle from being pulled during hard braking? if so then im going way overkill making these latest torque arms.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by E-HP » Dec 05 2020 3:35pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Dec 05 2020 3:31pm
is it still just the bolt clamping force that stops the axle from being pulled during hard braking? if so then im going way overkill making these latest torque arms.
Ridiculously.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by neptronix » Dec 05 2020 5:55pm

I would just bolt a torque arm to the frame and call it a day if possible.

Yeah it will be annoying to remove the wheel but hopefully you are using some kind of flat protection so you have to do that very infrequently.
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My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 7:04pm

I have two beers and smoke weed and realize all the shit I made won’t work. None of u told me. They’re all adapters for the hub motor to fit in a 14mm drop out. Look at what Is touching what. There’s not grip, no friction. All of them. I think it will fly off the back. And sadly so will these ridiculous things for 40$ each I made. Ridiculous.

And now I really do have to figure an adapter to work these hub motors to a 14mm axle. Esthetics and pet peeves are out the window.

https://imgur.com/a/IImQk8k

I’m pretty disappointed in all of you. What the hell am I here for? To argue politics.

I can grind off the face on them and then they’ll work. Ridiculous. But even then it’s adding another interface into what the torque is transferred through. I’m frocked.

It’s a 14mm dropout. The only purchase that will happen on the inside, friction, contact, is between that 14mm Dropout and the 17mm axle end of the hub. Talking about where hub holds to the bike, on the inside of rear end. The outside contact the nut isn’t touching the frame!

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by neptronix » Dec 05 2020 8:03pm

Your adapters could work great if you simply bolted them to the frame. If i had those adapters i would put 3 bolts in them and call the solution solid enough for under 4kW of power.

You probably didn't get good advice because your pictures were posted on another site in long strings without proper context in the thread and i would bet that not everyone looked at them.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

Hummina Shadeeba   100 MW

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Dec 05 2020 8:33pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 05 2020 8:03pm
Your adapters could work great if you simply bolted them to the frame. If i had those adapters i would put 3 bolts in them and call the solution solid enough for under 4kW of power.

You probably didn't get good advice because your pictures were posted on another site in long strings without proper context in the thread and i would bet that not everyone looked at them.
as you say and i was joking blaming everyone else. but not making that obvious on purpose.

but maybe will work still..if the meat of the 17mm hub motor end butted against the 14mm dropout is enough grip. to not rip out the back.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by dogman dan » Dec 06 2020 7:37am

I don't think rip out the back will be a problem. The tire will lose traction enough if it actually locks up. Just as it does with use of a coaster brake that locks up.

Its usually more like the dropout spreads or deforms, or if it don't, then the axle simply twists on the motor, or even twists off, or the axle mashes itself round, at 10 mm.

Just beef up those dropouts, and its all good IMO.

But what will actually happen if your motor slips, is that one side will be looser than the other, or restrained by the chain, and the wheel will shift till its crooked and the tire hits the frame. Its not going to leave the bike, but it will lock the wheel if it rubs the frame enough.


To solve the rip out the back issue if it occurs, you could repurpose the chain tensioning bolt from a motorcycle, but instead of facing back like on a moto, have it facing front. The tensioner bolts would then prevent any movement backwards out of the dropout. The big reason they would be good, is to prevent the wheel shifting rearward, crookedly.

Other modifications could be considered, such as a spot of welding on the very back of the dropout, essentially installing lawyer lips on the rear dropout. If the nut loosens, the wheel still can't leave the bike.

Many options out there if you actually put new dropouts on the bike. They could be Z shaped, so if the axle slides back, it hits the z in the slot and can't move back any farther.


One more time bro,,, the best possible solution here is pinching dropouts. Many many designs out there to choose from. Many old threads on this. Pinch em hard, they are not going anywhere.

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Chalo » Dec 06 2020 12:58pm

dogman dan wrote:
Dec 06 2020 7:37am
I don't think rip out the back will be a problem. The tire will lose traction enough if it actually locks up. Just as it does with use of a coaster brake that locks up.
Agreed. It's worth noting that every coaster brake hub I've ever seen has smooth locknut faces. Tightening the axle nuts a normal amount is more than enough to prevent slipping in the dropout slots.
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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jan 24 2021 1:01pm

No torque arm slip and can lock up the rear wheel! Really liking the regen brake. Like the feel of these grips too. https://imgur.com/a/DOLti4A

The new mini bike. Was worried about how it would handle. Not something I’ll be riding no handed much and very twitchy but fine.

Charge port doesn’t work so have to unplug the main leads from the battery each charge. That and need to figure the turn on when rolling feature of the Vesc and other than those niggles it’s all as wanted.

Foc program is good enough and takes off from the slightest push and won’t bother hooking up the sensor wires

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Re: torque arms for using regen?

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jan 26 2021 9:44pm

But can I call it 8 horse power?
https://imgur.com/gallery/s9xDkK0

The esc does 120 motor amps and 100 battery amps and it’s a 50v battery. I’d like to multiply 120x50 for the system wattage.

I understanding the voltage applied to the motor will be very small, just enough to reach the desired current flow while overcoming the back voltage. would only top speed be a true 8hp as then the full voltage would be applied?

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