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Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Nov 28 2020 9:04pm
by Manbeer
Looking to build a simple off road rig for my 61 year old mother. She used to be a decent rider 20+ years ago.
Began riding less and less and now doesn't really go out at all since getting ovarian cancer a few years ago, from which she's recovered but doesn't have the stamina she did after a few years of minimal exercise

I'd like to get her out on the trail with me , I've been trying to convince her that with how much things have changed in the last decade or so with larger tires, tubeless allowing for lower tire pressure, better suspension, better brakes and 1x drivetrains, balance and traction wise the difference is night and day between her 90s hardtail with 2" of travel up front.

I also know that while she would NOT want a bike that felt too assisted or unnatural especially with additional weight etc , something to help level things out a bit would also add to the experience...so I think I want to build her something like a Trek Marlin or Similar. Plan is to go 27.5 plus or possibly 29, she is like 5'3 and probably 14x lbs nowadays. Decent fork 120mm ish travel, possibly bomber z1

On all the bike stuff I have an idea where I want to go, but it's really the electric stuff I can't make up my mind

On one hand the TSDZ2 should give a more natural feel cause of the torque sensor, I don't believe she's really going to want to go above 16 or so so I think either one would cut it power wise. I'd probably run a lower powered version of the TSDZ2 like the 350w just cause anything else would be overkill for someone who is quite literally, going to drive like a grandma

On the other hand the q100 is gonna be lighter, and I haven't experienced the Torque simulation with the KT controllers but it seems people are satisfied with in. Just the non TS KT sinewaves with the v12 PAS seemed pretty decent on some of my other builds

She won't be jumping, hills are few and probably 10 percent grade max for like 50 feet. Mostly hardpack with some roots and rocks but pretty mild stuff

So which would you guys go with?

To be safe say the total load is 200 lb, Riding is 90% non-technical, goal is to have the feel not too far off from a normal bike or higher end factory eBike and keep it light and simple. Part of me says that the q100 is going to be lower maintenance and overall a bit more reliable for this application, on the other hand the mid-drive would probably feel a little bit better and have the gearing advantage. Had no point would it be used as throttle only so I am assuming that was a little bit of the pedaling the q100 wouldn't have a problem making it up to those hills since the reduction ratio is pretty significant.

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Nov 29 2020 12:00am
by Tommm
Manbeer wrote:
Nov 28 2020 9:04pm
She won't be jumping, hills are few and probably 10 percent grade max for like 50 feet. Mostly hardpack with some roots and rocks but pretty mild stuff

So which would you guys go with?
The difference here would be the small hub will need a bit of help going uphill.
In this case I would just get the cheaper one.

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Dec 01 2020 11:07am
by rocwandrer
I have a small amount of relevant experience, and you don't have a lot of replies at this point. I've used the Q100 as a front wheel assist with a tiny battery for a few years. have a little experience with a Nakto, and have just built up a BBSHD100.

Is the q100 now available in cassette rather than freehub compatibility (might be a consideration)? I ran one for a while. Plenty of power for your application. The controller programming makes all the difference. There are, in my opinion, two ways to go. 1.) set it up with a throttle that she uses on every steep climb, and elsewhere when she needs it. It is amazing how much less fatigue there is if you can just skip effort of the steepest climbs and otherwise ride it like a slightly heavy pedal bike, but it won't improve parity between different riders in a group, and it will never be forgotten. 2.) Get the pedelec working well. My BBSHD with custom tune to match my needs melts into the bike and it would be easy (but for the weight) to forget there is assist with it turned down to 50w of assist, yet it more than offsets the trailer I tow that might otherwise make the ride a bit miserable. It is still pretty seamless up to perhaps 250w of assist. But that depends on tuning. For example, being able to tune the off delay on the pedelec so that it matches her cadence and doesn't overrun for too long is critical to it feeling seamless, not like cheating, and not scary. Continuing to provide power for 400ms after she stops pedaling will feel unnerving at best. The Nakto off delay doesn't appear to be tunable, and this deficiency makes it nearly un-rideable with the pedelec connected.

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Dec 01 2020 12:44pm
by E-HP
Manbeer wrote:
Nov 28 2020 9:04pm
On the other hand the q100 is gonna be lighter, and I haven't experienced the Torque simulation with the KT controllers but it seems people are satisfied with in. Just the non TS KT sinewaves with the v12 PAS seemed pretty decent on some of my other builds

She won't be jumping, hills are few and probably 10 percent grade max for like 50 feet. Mostly hardpack with some roots and rocks but pretty mild stuff

So which would you guys go with?
I think the Q100 seems adequate, but as much as I love PAS (or used to, until I switched to throttle plus cruise control), the KT cadence PAS doesn't work well off road, except on fire roads. The slight delay and abruptness of the on/off can make it difficult to navigate when you need to go slow and only want power when you need it. I would recommend using throttle off road on the tight spots, turning PAS to level 0. Also the setup would be light and have the ability to coast normally.

Q100 with KT controller running open source firmware, and a torque sensing bottom bracket PAS might be a good combo. :o

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Dec 01 2020 9:09pm
by Manbeer
Ok guys,
Thanks for the feedback and I have to say, in most ways it is what I was hoping to hear. The q100 seems to be more reliable than the TSDZ2, which seems to have it's perks but i think won't be right for this situation

I was leaving towards the cassette version, yes, and probably in a 1x12 configuration like sram nx or the like.

I have played around with the KT PAS and while it was better than some others, I was hoping that I could perfect it with osf but it seems like that may not be the case based on what I'm hearing

Would CA be able to rectify most of the delay issues? If so that may be the direction I would head

Another option would be to throw the kepler friction drive into the options pool and use CA to keep PAS function if she still wants it, or otherwise get a TS bottom bracket like mentioned above. I was reluctant to use anything I hadn't tried before and make her a beta tester but it seems like that may be worth the risk. She's no daredevil and would prefer a more analog like feel, so that would probably lead to the best outcome

With the friction drive, I'd imagine I would want to leave it permanently engaged to the tire to eliminate any delays, which would probably nullify some of the benefit of his design

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Dec 02 2020 10:58pm
by rocwandrer
No direct experience, but a friction drive in a mountain bike application seems like asking for trouble.

Re: Apples to pomegranates? Q100 vs TSZD2 for low speed trail riding

Posted: Dec 03 2020 10:58am
by Manbeer
At first I was thinking the same, but kepler's Fuel seems to be pretty solid. The main downside as I see it would be the tire selection being limited to something with a smooth center. In the greater scheme of things, that could be a deal breaker depending on terrain