Rear Hub Research

Bike Forums referred me to this forum and there I received answers suggesting that my raleigh mountain bike with road tires and an elevated seat would convert well to an e-bike. From that, I opinion, based on the fact that I want speed and don't mind a more bumpy ride that a rear hub is the way to go.

However, in terms of deciding which rear hub to get, everything just seems disorganized. There are 1000 different retailers, it's hard to get a clear comparison between different options and see the pros and cons of each. How would you start to organize all this so you can choose what is right for you? What brands have a good price structure for what I'm looking to do, where price is actually correlated to my priorities?

my priorities:
I'd say for me,
(1) the most important thing is battery life and easy charging followed closely by
(2) top speed as the 2nd most important thing.
(3) Low noise is a distant 3rd priority.
(not important) A "smooth ride" isn't that important to me.

I'm also looking to build my own motors and/or batteries, but that's more of a stretch goal, for now I want to buy one.

You budget is very low, too low for a good quality battery. You will have a compromise to make there. Some hub motor kits are very cheap, but users are soon replacing the controller supplied with a better one.

Priority top speed normally means high budget, because fast bikes need to be built with better components and a bigger battery.

I've only owned geared rear motors, but know that the 1500W direct drive motors are pretty cheap and supposedly fast, doing 30+ mph with a good battery. That's speed to me, as my fastest ebike is only around 26-28 mph. It's peanuts to some of the fast builders,

Yep. It is easy to build 30+ mph with cheap motors and relatively low budget. I have built 60 mph with cheap motors, but the budget was much higher due to other components and battery.

I'd say for me,
(1) the most important thing is battery life and easy charging followed closely by
The battery life is infinite if you don't use it. Is there a distance and terrain goal?
(2) top speed as the 2nd most important thing.
Are you keeping the top speed goal a secret? I'll wait for the big reveal.
(3) Low noise is a distant 3rd priority.
You want to use a controller that uses either sine wave or FOC commutation, rather than square wave or trapezoidal.

(not important) A "smooth ride" isn't that important to me.
If you come to the realization that you need suspension in the future, you might want to look at suspension seatposts. This depends on your #2 goal.

PS. Welcome to the forum

I hear people that the budget is too low, but then recommend some brands to me where the price is actually justified by the performance of the battery. Because if I'm going to invest more, I want it to be worth it. I'd rather mod this bike because it rides pretty well without the motor. I want the motor when I want it, but I want decent pedal biking when I'm not using it.

Thanks for welcoming me.

austin2359 said:

I hear people that the budget is too low, but then recommend some brands to me where the price is actually justified by the performance of the battery. Because if I'm going to invest more, I want it to be worth it. I'd rather mod this bike because it rides pretty well without the motor. I want the motor when I want it, but I want decent pedal biking when I'm not using it.

Thanks for welcoming me.

Click to expand...

So far, based on the information provided; geared hub, sine wave controller. More info, more guidance.

So more info - I don't need a speedometer or anything flashy. I just need the rear wheel to move as I control it with my hands somehow to change the speed and I'm willing to pay more for a good battery. And my opinion is rear hub is the way to go. I do want it to be hand controlled, not automatic. If I want to pedal the bike, I'll pedal the bike, I don't want that integrated. Willing to pay more for better battery and faster charge, but not to throw away cash for no reason.

Or maybe I could get an entire new bike, but I don't really like the mid drives because they require you to pedal them to use the motor to my understanding and they're less speedy.

I do want it to look like a regular bike. I don't want it to so obviously scream "ebike" that people don't think of it as a bike.

austin2359 said:

So more info - I don't need a speedometer or anything flashy. I just need the rear wheel to move as I control it with my hands somehow to change the speed and I'm willing to pay more for a good battery. And my opinion is rear hub is the way to go. I do want it to be hand controlled, not automatic. If I want to pedal the bike, I'll pedal the bike, I don't want that integrated. Willing to pay more for better battery and faster charge, but not to throw away cash for no reason.

Or maybe I could get an entire new bike, but I don't really like the mid drives because they require you to pedal them to use the motor to my understanding and they're less speedy.

I do want it to look like a regular bike. I don't want it to so obviously scream "ebike" that people don't think of it as a bike.

Click to expand...

Trying a different tact. Try reading the stickies at the top of the forum to get advice on how to get advice on the forum by providing the information needed, or read my post above on the information specifically requested.

Your advice to look at the sticky threads was exactly what I needed. I'm not sure I need any more help. Thank you.

If you want a good pedal experience, then you can't have the big direct drive for speed because the magnets will drag unless you use the throttle to pass a current thru the motor.

I never liked the sticky because it's focused on Lipo bag batteries, which are inexpensive but only for very careful people.

You know what, I think I should save up and get an entirely new bike once I'm financially ready. My bike is working pretty well without the motor and I don't want to ruin it. No law says I can't have two bikes.

Most of us end up with more than one ebike, and very few keep using an unpowered bicycle.

docw009 said:

I never liked the sticky because it's focused on Lipo bag batteries, which are inexpensive but only for very careful people.

Click to expand...

Some stickies are aging.
RC lipo is just like any other batteries for cost: Some a cheap, some are very expansive. Their use for the purpose of saving money is not a good idea because cheap RC lipo is very dangerous and hardly last more than 300 charging cycles. The valid reason to use them is performance and yes, they require careful management.

LOL. Some are definitely expansive,

docw009 said:

LOL. Some are definitely expansive,

Click to expand...

Buying cheap batteries is the most expansive way to power an ebike.

Recycling can be a good way to save money but then it is with work that the cost is paid. It is saving only for those who don’t value their time.

Wise ebike builders are buying the best quality batteries that are matching their performance requirements, and they build with a safe margin of capacity.

austin2359 said:

My bike is working pretty well without the motor and I don't want to ruin it.

Click to expand...

Good on you for clarifying your priorities to yourself. Although "ruin it" is in the eye of the beholder, adding a sufficient battery (weight!) to satisfy your speed priority, and motor (more weight!) will drastically alter the bike's handling characteristics and general behavior and responsiveness.

Apparently, the general trend is once you electrify, you don't tend to go back. And also tend to evolve toward more higher-power builds over time, and more refinement.

It might be irrelevant at this point, but I couldn't find anywhere in any of your posts that actually did state a budget. Did I miss it?

However, I would agree that if you really like the bike you have as a pedal-only bike, you should leave it the way it is, and convert something else. People do sometimes find they regret having added all the weight/etc and done other changes to their favorite pedal bike after they've done it.


If you're looking for high speed (I don't see that you actually defined "top speed" anywhere either; "fast" around here seems to usually mean 40-50mph), then an OEM bike is probably going to be very expensive. And you're unlikely to find a "legally saleable" one in most places in the USA that will go faster than 20mph, or at best 28mph (depending on the law they were built to obey), though some have limiters that can be defeated without major modifications that might get a few more MPH.

Building your own using a bike suited for that speed and whatever terrain you'll be using it on, using either a kit or from specific separately-purchased/collected parts, is probably going to get you exactly what you want for less money, though more work. If you are willing to post as complete a detailed list of what you need it to do for you (speed, terrain, weather, range, acceleration rate, riding style, weight, etc) and your budget, we can help you find the right parts to do it. (there are usually several paths to reach any particular result).

Regarding middrives being less "speedy" than hubs, that depends on a number of things for each of these types, including your gearing, battery voltage, wheel size, etc. Only some middrives require pedalling to operate. And not all middrives even go thru the pedals; some have a separate drivetrain to the rear wheel.

Regarding battery budget: the battery is the heart of the whole system, as it must provide all of the power for it. If it can't handle the demands placed on it, the system wont' do what you want it to. There are cheap (probalby couple hundred dollars, maybe a little more) kits that have everything but the battery, that with a good battery could do quite well...but there are thousand-dollar kits that still wont' do much with a crappy battery.

austin2359 said:

Bike Forums referred me to this forum and there I received answers suggesting that my raleigh mountain bike with road tires and an elevated seat would convert well to an e-bike. From that, I opinion, based on the fact that I want speed and don't mind a more bumpy ride that a rear hub is the way to go.

However, in terms of deciding which rear hub to get, everything just seems disorganized. There are 1000 different retailers, it's hard to get a clear comparison between different options and see the pros and cons of each. How would you start to organize all this so you can choose what is right for you? What brands have a good price structure for what I'm looking to do, where price is actually correlated to my priorities?

my priorities:
I'd say for me,
(1) the most important thing is battery life and easy charging followed closely by
(2) top speed as the 2nd most important thing.
(3) Low noise is a distant 3rd priority.
(not important) A "smooth ride" isn't that important to me.

I'm also looking to build my own motors and/or batteries, but that's more of a stretch goal, for now I want to buy one.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

I hear people that the budget is too low, but then recommend some brands to me where the price is actually justified by the performance of the battery. Because if I'm going to invest more, I want it to be worth it. I'd rather mod this bike because it rides pretty well without the motor. I want the motor when I want it, but I want decent pedal biking when I'm not using it.

Thanks for welcoming me.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

So more info - I don't need a speedometer or anything flashy. I just need the rear wheel to move as I control it with my hands somehow to change the speed and I'm willing to pay more for a good battery. And my opinion is rear hub is the way to go. I do want it to be hand controlled, not automatic. If I want to pedal the bike, I'll pedal the bike, I don't want that integrated. Willing to pay more for better battery and faster charge, but not to throw away cash for no reason.

Or maybe I could get an entire new bike, but I don't really like the mid drives because they require you to pedal them to use the motor to my understanding and they're less speedy.

I do want it to look like a regular bike. I don't want it to so obviously scream "ebike" that people don't think of it as a bike.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

Your advice to look at the sticky threads was exactly what I needed. I'm not sure I need any more help. Thank you.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

You know what, I think I should save up and get an entirely new bike once I'm financially ready. My bike is working pretty well without the motor and I don't want to ruin it. No law says I can't have two bikes.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

However, in terms of deciding which rear hub to get, everything just seems disorganized. There are 1000 different retailers, it's hard to get a clear comparison between different options and see the pros and cons of each. How would you start to organize all this so you can choose what is right for you? What brands have a good price structure for what I'm looking to do, where price is actually correlated to my priorities?

Click to expand...

Motor "brand" doesn't matter since they're all Chinese anyway, but comprehensive and accurate specifications and technical support from the retailer are crucial. Most everyone recommends https://ebikes.ca/

austin2359 said:

my priorities:
I'd say for me,
(1) the most important thing is battery life and easy charging followed closely by
(2) top speed as the 2nd most important thing.
(3) Low noise is a distant 3rd priority.
(not important) A "smooth ride" isn't that important to me.

Click to expand...

austin2359 said:

I want decent pedal biking when I'm not using it.

Click to expand...

1) relates solely to battery, and easy charging dictates a single pack with BMS
3) low noise dictates a direct-drive hub, but direct-drive is heavier and has higher rolling friction than freewheeling geared hub
Choose your motor first, then design the rest of your system around it.

Yeah that budget thing blew me out I reread it a couple times. Budget ghost
Rear Mac geared 6t or voliamart 1,500 Watt d.d. cheaper.
The DD no freewheel so a little throttle and a 11t rear. 52v 15ah or more quality cells name and model # I said teslsa like cells Run smoke and mirrors. Torque arms. 1,000 usd and donor bike
30mph 25 miles or more.

The thing is there is my "can I get something fast budget" and then there's my "be patient, put some money away, use my credit card budget." And I think the 2nd would probably be about 1k. For a really good reason, maybe i can treat it as 2k.

Yeah if you could get the mid drive or the geared up to speed, then I don't really need a direct drive. I'd rather be able to go 30 mph for a long time than 60 mph for 15 minutes. And I do want a good pedal experience.

I like 21 speeds too and my low riding mountain bike with road tire and a raised seat - work pretty good. If I fall down it doesn't really hurt because it's so low riding.

Hey Austin, you should be wise and figure out what you want to begin with, what kind of riding you will be doing, what kind of terrain you will be riding then choose direct drive or geared hub or mid drive. Each has their pro's and con's. Then figure out what speeds you want to figure out voltage and kv turn count of motor. Yes save your money, do not skimp out, do not cheap out.

See it will be mainly road, BUT, a more low riding bike than a typical road bike. I like to basically convert a mountain bike into road shape, but like the low riding but not the mountain tires.

To get the boost without screwing up the pedaling experience, that's what I want. I probably don't need to go faster than 30 mph because even at that pace I'll be catching cars when they hit the traffic lights. If i go too fast they won't let me blow the traffic lights they'll think it's a motorcycle.

So the main thing I want is good battery life, good road riding, good pedaling. The speed doesn't have to be above 30 certainly doesn't have to go above 40 if it screws up my battery life or pedaling.

Should I go with mid, geared or direct for that?

austin2359 said:

See it will be mainly road, BUT, a more low riding bike than a typical road bike. I like to basically convert a mountain bike into road shape, but like the low riding but not the mountain tires.

To get the boost without screwing up the pedaling experience, that's what I want. I probably don't need to go faster than 30 mph because even at that pace I'll be catching cars when they hit the traffic lights. If i go too fast they won't let me blow the traffic lights they'll think it's a motorcycle.

So the main thing I want is good battery life, good road riding, good pedaling. The speed doesn't have to be above 30 certainly doesn't have to go above 40 if it screws up my battery life or pedaling.

Should I go with mid, geared or direct for that?

Click to expand...

My advice is to get the cheapest direct drive 1000W kit you can find, and the best battery you can afford. Look for a kit using a KT controller if you can, since the torque simulation PAS works OK, without spending and arm and a leg on a torque sensing PAS and the compatible components. Try to get decent cells, but if you have to go with generic, at least go with a decent pack maker.

I started with a $150 ebay kit and a battery like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/52V-20Ah-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-Triangle-Case-for-1000W-1500W-Ebike-Motor/253904125601?epid=15031751936&hash=item3b1ddd7ea1:g:Q6EAAOSwMTZe61wY

I've since upgraded the battery, but the old one still has plenty of life left in it, just doesn't provide as much current as the new one, but I was able to get my bike up and running for around $600 and change. The range was great (I never ran the battery down to empty), longer than I could take sitting on the bike seat.

PS. Don't press the buy button on a battery until AFTER discussing it here. Prices that are too good to be true are scams, period. Some may even describe decent cells, but you have to read the fine print and be able to spot signs of a scam.

PPS.
Here's how I went about it the first time, after spending a bunch of time reading the forum posts:
Searched on "1000W electric rear", and filtered on North American sellers (better for shipping in my case) and sorted by price w/shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=1000w+electric+rear&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=3
Picked the cheapest kit with decent seller rating. Made sure the cheap kit included a PAS sensor, throttle, and brake levers with sensors.

Searched on "1500W sine wave controller". Sorted on price w/shipping; can't avoid China on these.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=1500w+sine+wave+controller&_sacat=0&_sop=15

I got one like this, with the LCD3 display.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Risunmotor-48V-1500W-Ebike-Brushless-DC-Sine-Wave-Controller-LCD-Panel-Ebike/331976374580?hash=item4d4b557934:g:W6EAAOSwX1xf5Z8W

But I just noticed this bluetooth option, so you can use your phone as a display, or add a display too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-bike-48V-1000-2000W-45A-DC-Sine-wave-Bluetooth-18-Mosfet-Controller-45A/163596251058?hash=item261718afb2:g1sAAOSwDXdc3SuK

Both of the above look like KT sine wave controllers, with regen. There is open source firmware that you can find in a thread on this site that opens up a lot of possibilities with the KT LCD3 display and controller, including supporting torque sensing PAS, so if the KT torque simulation isn't good enough, you could always upgrade later.

You need a decent torque arm, so expect to spend another $30 or so, but the rest goes to the battery. If you are really going the DIY route, you should at least have a cheap multimeter and soldering iron too.

My goals were quiet, and decent range. No speed expectations.

spotted on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254842745187
48V 10Ah Electric Bike Battery, BtrPower Lithium LiFePO4 with charger
$120 + $25 shipping
You can add a 1 year warranty for another $13 (I would)
open box ...