750-Watt Limit in USA: How Relevant?

PeteCress

PeteCress

1 kW
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Dec 15, 2009
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Paoli (near Philadelphia) Pennsylvania USA
Understood that ebike regulation is probably a state-by-state thing.

But I keep reading that 750 watts is a common cutoff point: 750 and below and you are on a moped, above and you are operating a motorcycle.

Analogous, I guess, to the EU's 250-watt restriction.

One guy even mentioned confiscation of a bike bc it exceeded 750 watts and, therefore, wasn't really a bike anymore.

The Question: How "Real" is this?
  • Can the average cop tell the diff?
  • Are motors (specifically Bafang) labeled as to their power?
  • If this is real, why wouldn't Bafang offer their new "Ultra" mid-motors in a 750-watt flavor, even if the distinction were purely cosmetic, in order to satisfy such a wattage mandate?
 
Not even a ebike expert can tell just by looking at an ebike because your 5kw MXUS dd motor with a 100V 25Ah 100A battery with a huge 24fet controller could have a shunt or two removed from inside which severely limits the power, but what else also limits power? a Cycle Analyst, KT display, 3-way switch, reworked throttle. But ask yourself what exactly is motor power, and its not the same as the power of a light bulb or a heater.

Side of the road judgement will be done by how you ride, what your ebike looks like and how you interact.


https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

- The reason we don't have a simple power level for each motor or kit is that there is no standard or even consistent way to provde a numeric 'watts rating' for a motor system.

- You can see the exact same motor listed as 250 watts, 500 watts, and 1000 watts by different vendors, and there is a valid justification for all those number.

- While an actual watt is an actual watt, There is NO SUCH THING as a "rated watt" or any standarized method for rating ebike motor power.

-With electric motors, they do not produce a fixed amount of power when you turn them on. If you run the motor with your wheel off the ground, then it will spin at full speed and produce no power output. As you then load the motor with drag, it will slow down a bit and produce torque, and the more you load it down the more it slows down and the higher the torque and power it puts out. At some point as you continue to load and slow the motor down, then the output power will start to decrease. Even though the torque is still increasing, the lower RPM means that the mechanical power produced goes down. If you stall the motor completely, it might be making a ton of torque but it's producing zero output power.
 
Stay within the ebike speed limit for your area and you are unlikely to have any issues imho. For now anyway. Eventually they'll probably invest in roadside dyno's and a task force after enough Karen's whine about us.
 
:lol:
Fuzz can't even implement roadside dB meters for loud mufflers.
Maybe they have roadside dB meters in other area's but thats just the case isnt it, and you touched on it and should expand.
Every area is different from the city to the county to the state/province to how the fuzz is feeling that particular time of day.

HK12K said:
Stay within the ebike speed limit for your area and you are unlikely to have any issues imho. For now anyway. Eventually they'll probably invest in roadside dyno's and a task force after enough Karen's whine about us.
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Motors have variable power, light bulbs and heaters are fixed power. But a watt is a watt, you could have 48V 20A which is 1kw or you can have 24V 40A or 100V 10A or 10V 100A. Just the sweet spot for ebikes is 36V and 48/52V yet 72V isnt to uncommon.
 
markz said:
:lol:
Fuzz can't even implement roadside dB meters for loud mufflers.
Maybe they have roadside dB meters in other area's but thats just the case isnt it, and you touched on it and should expand.
Every area is different from the city to the county to the state/province to how the fuzz is feeling that particular time of day.

HK12K said:
Stay within the ebike speed limit for your area and you are unlikely to have any issues imho. For now anyway. Eventually they'll probably invest in roadside dyno's and a task force after enough Karen's whine about us.
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For sure. That said, keep it under the limit and they probably won't hassle you. Unless you're popping power-on no-pedal wheelies through intersections, out accelerating cars, etc. Then they might start asking questions you'd rather not answer. :lol:
 
Yes, ride with courtesy and respect and ride on

Ride on

HK12K said:
For sure. That said, keep it under the limit and they probably won't hassle you. Unless you're popping power-on no-pedal wheelies through intersections, out accelerating cars, etc. Then they might start asking questions you'd rather not answer. :lol:
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markz said:
Yes, ride with courtesy and respect and ride on

Ride on

HK12K said:
For sure. That said, keep it under the limit and they probably won't hassle you. Unless you're popping power-on no-pedal wheelies through intersections, out accelerating cars, etc. Then they might start asking questions you'd rather not answer. :lol:
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Amen. I rode thousands of km through Surrey, Vancouver, Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam, etc on my 14kw Raptor. Street, bike lanes, mixed use paths, the works. Never an issue. Got stopped once, on my first ride. Cop just wanted to know how I liked the bike. He was genuinely confused when I opened by apologizing for not having lights yet. That was Surrey though, he was probably expecting to be told to get bent.
 
PeteCress said:
But I keep reading that 750 watts is a common cutoff point: 750 and below and you are on a moped, above and you are operating a motorcycle.
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Here (Washington state) the moped limit is 2HP, ca. 1500W. Very common line for electric bicycles is 750W, often with some requirement that the motor won't operate without pedaling. Somewhat meaningless in practice, as mentioned above, but the manufacturers have linked arms and push these standards via their "People for Bikes" corporate lobbying group and elsewhere, and the legislators don't know any better, so it's going to be a long time before anything changes here.
 
When I'm back in the States it seems to me the Police are not enforcing traffic laws anymore. Groups of motorcycles drag racing and doing wheelies on weekend nights.
I know the force has been whittled down to about two thirds of what it used to be, I don't think they have time to bother with ebikes.
If they were going to go after anyone, it would be the "Spooky Tooths" that consistantly cruise @ 30 mph without mufflers.
In the 10 years I've been riding ebikes, I've never had a cop even look at me, let alone stop me.
 
The hell with the powers that be on this issue. Our "betters" are constantly telling us how we're killing the planet with our fossil fuels, and then when people try to get into ebiking for whatever reason, these jackwagons try to implement all kinds of controls on the machinery. "They" will never be happy until they control every facet of life.

The behavior with the machine...ebike, motorcycle, brodozer, or whatever...should be the issue. If a moron on a pedal-only bike is mowing down people on the sidewalk or the daycare playground, that moron should be charged with whatever appropriate violation fits the laws of that area. Putting the focus of control on the device is a lazy, ignorant approach that usually has little ultimate effect. A person can put others in danger via a wide array of devices...cars, guns, weedwhackers, power tools, etc...should cars all be limited to walking speed? If one is going to legislate, legislate against behavior and not objects. So...do you really want to know how I feel? :lol:
 
CA, as well as about half of the US, has the "Class" system, but it isn't enforced. The only liability I can foresee (other than an individual showing off in front of the police) is getting into an accident with an "illegal" bike since this is a litigious state.
 
TNC said:
...should cars all be limited to walking speed?
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Inside cities, yes. But I'd settle for a zealously enforced 20 mph limit on any city street that has driveways along it.

As for the OP's question, at this time it's wildly unlikely that anyone in the United States will face close examination of his bike for wattage, unless it's during a criminal or insurance-related investigation, or a cop is grasping for some pretext to ticket or harass him.

If your bike looks like a bicycle, you ride at not a lot more than 20 mph, and you pedal, you're unlikely to have any legal problem. If your bike looks like a motorcycle but doesn't have a license plate on it, well that's asking for hassles.
 
Chalo said:
TNC said:
...should cars all be limited to walking speed?
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Inside cities, yes. But I'd settle for a zealously enforced 20 mph limit on any city street that has driveways along it.
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Ah ha!...I knew it. We're both Texans, but you're in Austin, so...

LOL!...sorry, I had to throw that out there. :mrgreen:

I don't see your concern. As a motorcyclist and bicyclist, I've never seen any issue with safety/danger with driveways and streets. :wink:
 
Chalo said:
unless it's during a criminal or insurance-related investigation
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Yeah, that's the thing they wave at you, when they argue in favor of a factory regulation-conformant setup. You'll get involved in an accident, the insurance lawyers will find out that you have a illegal bicycle, and you're cooked. I have no idea if there's any potential reality in it. I guess I will have to avoid accidents.
 
I believe I heard a while back that Oregon is 1000W.

I'm happy with the places that have a 28-mph speed limit on street ebikes. I am not allowed to ride on the sidewalk, and the cars on side-streets have a 25-mph speed limit. My car is capable of 100-mph+, and I have no problems doing 25 in a school zone...
 
Unless you encounter an extremely bored cop (like my roommate in college who got a ticket for the long boarding in the bike lane), the likelihood of legal trouble from 750+ watts on the street is near zero. personally, trails are where there's more of a concern. considering e-bikes are not allowed on dirt trails in my county, I'm hyper considerate of other trail users if I happen to find myself on some singletrack by accident (I'll drastically lower the assist or kill it with the brake).

It took me a while to track down, but my county does describe specific e-bike fines: "To operate any Class of electric powered bicycle (e-bike) on a natural surface trail or operate a Class III e-bike on a hard surface trail. FINE $75.00".

Fortunately my wife and I recently bought a house in a neighboring county with more relaxed regulations :)
 
Hide a rear hub behind some rear rack bags and buy some 750W or 250W (uk) holographic stickers off ebay and place one on the motor and one on the controller, be sure they are recognizable over time they could fade.
 
In practical terms , what really matters, is are you the droid the stormtrooper is looking for.

So lets say, last month they gave you your 10th DUI, or they know you street deal drugs, or you are the guy who they know hates the police, whatever. Its not your bike that got you stopped. You already are on the cops shit list.

Or, you just ride like an ass, such as wrong side of the road at 35 mph in a 25 mph zone. That will do too.

And how you dress matters with how much road respect you get from everybody. When I commuted by e bike I tried to look like a wealthy guy with a PHD riding to the campus. Look like you have a good lawyer. The other 90% of bike riders in my town look like they are on parole, homeless, or just got a DUI last week.

I rode on the MUP's on my commute for 7 miles twice a day, right past the signs that say no motorized vehicles, with few problems. Talked to cops, but no hassles because I rode with respect for all other users of the path and did not scare them with how I looked, or how I rode.

But, in my area e bikes were so rare then, no assholes had ruined it yet causing the police to give a damn.
 
dogman dan said:
But, in my area e bikes were so rare then, no assholes had ruined it yet causing the police to give a damn.
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Yeah. Just yesterday someone here posted a video clip of some rascal bombing down the local MUP, supposedly going like 30mph. Well, more like 20 if that, and there wasn't anyone else on the trail, etc., but the point is, those electric bicycles are speeding around on the trail and something must be done.

If it really goes down, garage builds are going to be banned from the multi-use paths. The police aren't going to be interested in putting your bike on the dyno to see what it's got, they just need you to be riding an un-tampered-with factory ebike that's OK for MUP use. The interesting question is whether that will be just MUP, or everywhere.
 
As already stated, in the USA nobody cares unless you are being a jerk.

I ride a bike fast. But I stay on the street and off MUPs, I have headlights and taillights, both solid and blinking, I have a big red downhill helmet with chin guard on and most of all I pedal like mad (bike was designed that way). And thats a 2wd bike where I am cruising between 32 and 34 mph.

I have been radar'd by cops multiple times and paced by squad cars and motorcycle cops more times than I can count. Regular traffic paces me too sometimes and I bet they are all just curious and nothing more. As for the cops, I make sure I present myself as (and I am) a citizen going about my business and not being an asshole about it.

Do that and nobody cares. If I lived in, say, Italy things would be different.
 
Yeah, on the street, cops never cared if I ran 35 mph, on a 35 mph street, in the lane, on the right side of the street.

But I'm white, old, with white hair. When I was young they'd see my face and pull me over anytime. They knew me well then, and I learned to stop at stop signs, keep the turn signal lights working.
 
I worried at first and was setting power limits on a switch but now don't worry at all and set a speed limit for a class 3 (28mph). Still have a 3 way watt limiter switch. Lowest level is for climbing hills.

Ride the trail system at 15mph, don't ride on sidewalks, stop at lights and signs. My trike looks like a trike, most don't even notice my motor. I'm more for distance than speed.
 
Enforcement of e-Bike laws are not an economically viable civic investment.

Bafang BBS02 is rated at 750 watts "Continuous", but on a full power demand will deliver 1350 watts Peak for a few seconds than taper off. Most drives state the Continuous rating although I've seen some with peaks over 1 second of 3X rated Continuous yet still qualified as a 500W Class X.

There is a local minority groups providing the most disruption to e-Bikes, I refer to them as Spandex Tornadoes.

Spandex Tornadoes
Like any group all have their bad apples from a an other wise great bunch. We have a group of about 30 bad apples who have organized to send letters and whippylip at every opportunity about allowing e-Bikes on the $200,000,000 130 mile Bike Loop we have in Tucson. Despite the 12 MPH speed limit, these are the same folks who can be observed rolling 30+ MPH past folks walking the dogs on the Loop, usually shouting "get the frock outta my way". That's no exaggeration. They search for other riders at a good clip and try to goad them into racing. You can imagine why these pricks despise E-Bikes.

So here we are in a community of 700,000+, where the majority has clearly supported allowing e-Bikes, yet a pack of 30 loudmouth pricks ruin it for E-bikers. Despite the laws, every 4th bike you see on the Loop has assist.

The whole point is its the big mouthed minority that the laws are defined for, but the majority won't approve investing into enforcement.
 
donn said:
If it really goes down, garage builds are going to be banned from the multi-use paths. The police aren't going to be interested in putting your bike on the dyno to see what it's got, they just need you to be riding an un-tampered-with factory ebike that's OK for MUP use. The interesting question is whether that will be just MUP, or everywhere.
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That rings true to me - especially since it would also serve the interests of the industry and seems tb how it went down in the EU.

The pisser is that people who weigh more than average get the short end of the stick.
 
I think we're all worried over nothing. The "Defund the Police" movement will make all of this a moot point so relax.

And please...I kid. :lol:
 
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