ok folks here is the hybrid ebike.

bike4life

bike4life

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Apr 10, 2020
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I forget if i alluded earlier but the reason for this is i want like 200 mile range ebike at 25+mph, which is not possible without a generator. also, a engine powered bike is illegal in my state so i had to make a hybrid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb-GJbPhIl4

its a little slow at 25mph, so i am gonna series another a123 battery pack and switching supply for 80 volts which should get 45mph for this hybrid.
Last year i ran 2 a123's in series and did 45 without the trailer and gen, so i expect a speed downgrade to 38 or 40mph cause of the extra weight.
the generator is 1800w running which should be adequate i think for 40mph with the batteries to make up the difference. i am gonna order a 1800w boost converter and my SMPS power supplies are 2 x 1000w = 2000w.
what is the wattage required for 35 or 40mph, wouldnt 1800w work, i know its probably 1600w after efficiency losses.
 
Instead of ac to 36v and then 36v to 40v, why not just use a charger from ac to whatever pack voltage you like? Chargers have a pot in it where you can fine tune the output voltage.
I would also consider getting a smaller higher voltage battery, and fitting it to the bike. So you can go on rides without the trailer at all.

Nice to see it all working.
 
Tommm said:
Instead of ac to 36v and then 36v to 40v, why not just use a charger from ac to whatever pack voltage you like? Chargers have a pot in it where you can fine tune the output voltage.
I would also consider getting a smaller higher voltage battery, and fitting it to the bike. So you can go on rides without the trailer at all.

Nice to see it all working.
Click to expand...
thanks. :)
i see... firstly its all a custom charger. i am currently that SMPS is the equivalent of a 1000w charger, and the commercial price of that would be idk 500 when i paid 70.
Somehow my SMPS supplies from alixpress dont like messing with the POT. I changed the POT on one to 40 volts and it actually craps out / trips so i had to change it back to 36v and boost. The boost converter is reasonably efficient. Boost converters get a bad wrap around here but they are reasonably efficient > 90% when boosting from 36v->40v, like a 10% increase. but if you try to double your voltage your gonna be at like 60% efficiency. the switchmode is like 95+% efficienct as i can feel it has like no heat while the boost is i can feel is hot and probably dumping 150w of heat.
the trailer is good for hauling stuff and the generator so im happy with it.
i paid 50 usd for that battery and want to keep costs low on budget, but yes a smaller more energy dense battery would be nice.
 
bike4life said:
Tommm said:
Instead of ac to 36v and then 36v to 40v, why not just use a charger from ac to whatever pack voltage you like? Chargers have a pot in it where you can fine tune the output voltage.
I would also consider getting a smaller higher voltage battery, and fitting it to the bike. So you can go on rides without the trailer at all.

Nice to see it all working.
Click to expand...
thanks. :)
i see... firstly its all a custom charger. i am currently that SMPS is the equivalent of a 1000w charger, and the commercial price of that would be idk 500 when i paid 70.
Somehow my SMPS supplies from alixpress dont like messing with the POT. I changed the POT on one to 40 volts and it actually craps out / trips so i had to change it back to 36v and boost. The boost converter is reasonably efficient. Boost converters get a bad wrap around here but they are reasonably efficient > 90% when boosting from 36v->40v, like a 10% increase. but if you try to double your voltage your gonna be at like 60% efficiency. the switchmode is like 95+% efficienct as i can feel it has like no heat while the boost is i can feel is hot and probably dumping 150w of heat.
the trailer is good for hauling stuff and the generator so im happy with it.
i paid 50 usd for that battery and want to keep costs low on budget, but yes a smaller more energy dense battery would be nice.
Click to expand...

Agree if you built the thing for next to nothing better to use it like it is, if you want something nicer you can just use the learnings and make another one instead of replacing components bit by bit on the old one.

I think you could fit it into a single unit on some 3 or 4 wheel velomobile frame. That would be cool. A smaller generator would be enough as they are more aero efficient.
 
So what state are you in? That a 40 mph home made motorcycle with pedals is legal?

Not that cops in many states give a shit.

In general, the recipe for 40 mph from that type motor is 72v 40 amps controller. 3000w. So you will not be doing 40 mph for all that long on your battery, even with 1800w max going in. And, you get about 40 min run time till melt down on those motors when you run them 40 mph continuous.

No problem having 40 mph capability, for getting across a busy road or up a steep hill. I found 60v quite adequate for city riding, giving my big heavy long tail bike 35 mph when I needed it. Mostly I'd cruise more like 25 mph, just for comfort. Likely you will find much more than 25 mph beats the crap out of your trailer, its hitch, etc. Roads are bad.

Re the trailer, we got a young Amberwolf here. Go dude, try all kinds of stuff, even if we scoff.
 
dogman dan said:
So what state are you in? That a 40 mph home made motorcycle with pedals is legal?

Not that cops in many states give a shit.

In general, the recipe for 40 mph from that type motor is 72v 40 amps controller. 3000w. So you will not be doing 40 mph for all that long on your battery, even with 1800w max going in. And, you get about 40 min run time till melt down on those motors when you run them 40 mph continuous.

No problem having 40 mph capability, for getting across a busy road or up a steep hill. I found 60v quite adequate for city riding, giving my big heavy long tail bike 35 mph when I needed it. Mostly I'd cruise more like 25 mph, just for comfort. Likely you will find much more than 25 mph beats the crap out of your trailer, its hitch, etc. Roads are bad.

Re the trailer, we got a young Amberwolf here. Go dude, try all kinds of stuff, even if we scoff.
Click to expand...

what does 1800w give. 35mph? im happy with 35mph. 1000w is 30mph correct? its not a motorcycle its an ebike. The laws in NJ are any ebike with a 750w or less is an ebike. The cops will pick u with a engine bike but not an ebike. Is a cop gonna know i am running 1800w on a 1kw volimart i dont think so unless they carry around DC clamp meters to measure juice.
the law says like 20mph on flat ground but thats secondary as i could say we have a 10mph wind in my direction and the road wasnt leveled or i was pedaling at 15mph for a total of 35mph never mind speeds dont add linearly but for a court sure, but in general they dont pick on ebikes so i am good. in courts your innocent till proven guilty, the cops have no proof i have a higher powered machine so i am innocent by definition. With my old gas powered bike, its illegal right away since its an engine, literally a 1cc engine would be illegal in nj without a dmv license plate insurance etc.

you would be suprised about the trailer stability. it is very very stable.
 
Your best bet is to go stealth, so spend the money.
I like your enthusiasm and tinkering and experimenting.

Everyone wants to go fast at first
Where do you want to go that you need to get there so fast?
Power is good to have to get you up the steep hills in a non-slow manner when your tired.
 
i dont have a car so this will be my car replacement. i need the same range as a car, at ideally 60% of car speed. It needs to be 2x as fast as bicycling so it needs to be at least 30mph and 25mph is a no go, so i plan on increasing voltage > 40 volts, 12s x 3.4 lifepo4/

I dont need stealth. i know the laws. i am good with my ebike. i am safe / immune from laws for ebikes.

budget is 200 usd.
 
While saluting the diy spirit this entire project remains quite elusive to me. If you're going the gasoline way, why an ebike and no mofa or light motorcycle ? And if you use a trailer, why not dump the generator and pack it with cells ? And finally: ARE YOU NUTS RIDING THIS 30MPH+ IN SHORTS AND T-SHIRT ? Trailers at higher speeds can be super dangerous. Kudos for the helmet, although it looks rather weak - I'd recommend at least light motorcycle gear for this type of experiment.
 
Admire the enthusiasm 8) ,although might be a little ambitious with some of your figures, but never know till you try , :pancake:
I like to challenge myself with bit of speed get a buzz, and riding that setup 40mph would be for sure be a white knuckle ride for couple miles :wink: not sure about 200 miles though :mrgreen:
 
bike4life said:
I forget if i alluded earlier but the reason for this is i want like 200 mile range ebike at 25+mph, which is not possible without a generator. also, a engine powered bike is illegal in my state so i had to make a hybrid.
Click to expand...
Is that a 120V light switch to switch DC? (very, very bad) Or is it connected to the AC out of the generator? (that's OK)
 
DC at higher voltages sparks a lot, welding the switch into the closed position. Looked to me like it was on the AC side?

I did not say your trailer was unstable at 30 mph. I meant that you may be surprised how it handles at 40 mph. When your bike frame starts flexing like a wet noodle, it makes your bike steer funny. That frame is not built for what you are doing.

As for the law,, if your laws limit e bikes to 20 mph, and 750w, then a 1000w 30 mph "ebike" is a homemade motorcycle with pedals on it. Its illegal, unregistered, uninsured, etc etc.

But like I said, in many states cops couldn't care less, till you start riding like a dick. But don't fool yourself your e bike is legal, just cuz cops don't care. All you got to do is get one mad at you, and wham, you got tickets.

So don't ride 40 mph up the wrong side of the street, not stopping at stop signs, and you should be fine. Where I live, 40 mph turns heads, but I have had cops give me a thumbs up at 30 mph.. 30 legal in my state btw.

But again,, go ahead and build for 40 mph.. Then use that power as you need it, breifly when getting across that busy intersection faster is going to keep you alive. I just wanted to be sure you understood that 40 mph for hours at a time is not going to happen with that motor. Easy solution later, when you get more money,, get a bigger motor. One with 10 pounds more copper winding in it will do 40 mph all day. Or add a second motor to your front wheel, to double your copper.

60v 40 amps should get you a 35 mph cruise, as long as your generator keeps the battery at full voltage. But towing 75 pounds of trailer around will definitely increase the load on your motor, slowing you down, and drastically shorten the time to melt down for your motor.

My advice, keep that motor at 48v, but 40 amps is fine. You'll have some grunt to get going, but cruising fast towing all that weight needs more motor.

You want fast,, save your money and get a motorcycle. Its legal, you can insure yourself riding it, and you can get 100 mph for about the price (old and used) you spend on a good solid 50 mph homemade motorcycle with pedals and 50 mile range.

But for a steady cruise up to 30 mph, nothing wrong with what you are doing. Thats well within the limits of cheap bike frames. Eventually, you should get into what Amberwolf has done, get a cheap wire feed welder and build your own customized bike frames and trailers. I'm loving what you are doing, and not trying to discourage you. But the stuff above 30 mph is done best with just a lighter battery on board, and stronger frames than they generally make.

Here is an example, very much inspired by others here on ES, especially Amberwolf. I built this not for speed, but for ability to carry 4 48v 20 ah batteries. Finished cargo mixte..jpg
 
dogman dan said:
DC at higher voltages sparks a lot, welding the switch into the closed position. Looked to me like it was on the AC side?

I did not say your trailer was unstable at 30 mph. I meant that you may be surprised how it handles at 40 mph. When your bike frame starts flexing like a wet noodle, it makes your bike steer funny. That frame is not built for what you are doing.

As for the law,, if your laws limit e bikes to 20 mph, and 750w, then a 1000w 30 mph "ebike" is a homemade motorcycle with pedals on it. Its illegal, unregistered, uninsured, etc etc.

But like I said, in many states cops couldn't care less, till you start riding like a dick. But don't fool yourself your e bike is legal, just cuz cops don't care. All you got to do is get one mad at you, and wham, you got tickets.

So don't ride 40 mph up the wrong side of the street, not stopping at stop signs, and you should be fine. Where I live, 40 mph turns heads, but I have had cops give me a thumbs up at 30 mph.. 30 legal in my state btw.

But again,, go ahead and build for 40 mph.. Then use that power as you need it, breifly when getting across that busy intersection faster is going to keep you alive. I just wanted to be sure you understood that 40 mph for hours at a time is not going to happen with that motor. Easy solution later, when you get more money,, get a bigger motor. One with 10 pounds more copper winding in it will do 40 mph all day. Or add a second motor to your front wheel, to double your copper.

60v 40 amps should get you a 35 mph cruise, as long as your generator keeps the battery at full voltage. But towing 75 pounds of trailer around will definitely increase the load on your motor, slowing you down, and drastically shorten the time to melt down for your motor.

My advice, keep that motor at 48v, but 40 amps is fine. You'll have some grunt to get going, but cruising fast towing all that weight needs more motor.

You want fast,, save your money and get a motorcycle. Its legal, you can insure yourself riding it, and you can get 100 mph for about the price (old and used) you spend on a good solid 50 mph homemade motorcycle with pedals and 50 mile range.

But for a steady cruise up to 30 mph, nothing wrong with what you are doing. Thats well within the limits of cheap bike frames. Eventually, you should get into what Amberwolf has done, get a cheap wire feed welder and build your own customized bike frames and trailers. I'm loving what you are doing, and not trying to discourage you. But the stuff above 30 mph is done best with just a lighter battery on board, and stronger frames than they generally make.

Here is an example, very much inspired by others here on ES, especially Amberwolf. I built this not for speed, but for ability to carry 4 48v 20 ah batteries. Finished cargo mixte..jpg
Click to expand...

there is no AC switch. The ac switch is plugging and unplugging the generator. I promise there isnt an AC switch lol :). Basically there are 2 siwtches. One is series to the wheel / controller which takes the DC. The other is series against the boost converter which takes DC.

"As for the law,, if your laws limit e bikes to 20 mph, and 750w, then a 1000w 30 mph "ebike" is a homemade motorcycle with pedals on it. Its illegal, unregistered, uninsured, etc etc."

lol no. In a court they have to prove that my bike was > 750 watts which i will have a 750w sticker and unless they have an EE in the stand, they have to take my word for it as your innocent till proven guilty not backwards.

The 20mph stipulation applies to flat level ground and only motor. I could ghost pedal if i wish and do 38 legally and testify there was wind or down hill, again until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt they have to take my word.

Not to mention freedom to travel lol, but yeah.

yeah I have a DC stick welder so i can do a custom frame i suppose.

I actually dont care too much about 40.... for example, 35 mph would be ok with me. but what is the wattage for 35mph?
 
i dont get why you guys keep on saying you need 3000w for 40mph, why this graph shows entirely different.

I
 

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Yeah, wattage for 35 mph pulling a 75 pound trailer will be about 3000w. 2000 will do for a relatively lighter bike with just a very large battery aboard. Your motor will do 3000w for short periods of duration, so do go for 72v 40 amps if you feel like it. But again 48 or 52v 40 amps for 2000w is often more convenient, less expensive etc, and your motor can take that amount of current a lot longer than 3000w.

Replace that AC switch running DC with a good solid DC plug. Andersons, RC bullets, or something like that.

Re the legality,,, heh heh. You been in a court yet? Judges do what they feel like doing, and cops ticket anybody they feel like. You might get a sympathetic judge, or not. Or he may just look at your rig and decide its not street legal. And it won't be, if it goes 40 mph. As soon as a judge decides you are guilty, he will slap that gavel and declare you guilty. Its not a jury trial in traffic court.

But again, what will save you is a cop that doesn't care that your e bike is an illegal, unregistered, home made, motorcycle with pedals. 40 mph is not even moped class in most states. It will be considered to be an off road vehicle in most states, which btw, still often requires you to register it. The trick is to pedal like hell when a cop sees you, and pass. Bikes go 40 mph all the time, downhill. But build for about 30 mph, 2000w, and nobody will go like this :shock: when they see you. Passing for legal is not legal, but its good enough if you don't piss off any cops.

Know your local cops. When I was young, all Ansel Austin needed to see was you were young, and on two wheels and he'd ticket the shit out of you. Ride a bicycle 10 mph through a 15 mph school zone, here's your ticket. If he saw you on a motorcycle, then here's your three tickets. The tickets always stuck too, since some kid can't be believed over a highly respected cop with a lifetime of service. We learned to recognize Ansel from about a half mile away. It helped that he patrolled on a harley.
 
bike4life said:
i dont get why you guys keep on saying you need 3000w for 40mph, why this graph shows entirely different.

I
Click to expand...

1) Your rig isn't as efficient or light as a real MTB, and

2) watts from the battery aren't the same thing as watts to the wheel.

When I use the power calculator at
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm ,
and use the defaults for "roadster", change the bike weight to 150 pounds, the elevation to 400 feet, and the pedal RPM to 1-- I get 2536W at 40mph. Divide by 0.8 gross efficiency for the motor and again by 0.9 gross efficiency for the controller and boost converter, and the number is 3522W. I didn't even account for losses in the rectifier.

In the real world, once all power losses and the nature of your rig have their effects, your total efficiency won't be as good as what my calculations suggest.
 
Lets add a final log to the fire in this convo and move on.
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
The reason we don't have a simple power level for each motor or kit is that there is no standard or even consistent way to provde a numeric 'watts rating' for a motor system.

You can see the exact same motor listed as 250 watts, 500 watts, and 1000 watts by different vendors, and there is a valid justification for all those number. That makes a vendor or manufacturer's watts rating in isolation a fairly pointless figure for choosing or comparing setups
Click to expand...

But after saying that I still say lets lean away from this line of talk, the kid now knows, you all warned him and he has a plan. Hopefully the link can provide some additional material to help out if need be in the future.

I doubt we will move on to the kids inspiration of an ebike, the kids motivation to build a hybrid ebike and putting it out for the world to see on Youtube, the fact the kid made the bike himself and didnt buy an ebike from Walmart but we could talk about doing 40mph on a Raliegh on what looks like a 15 or 18fet controller, then theres the kids steel work for the hitch mount. I say well done :thumb:
Don't be intimidated, you held your own, keep coming back and keep posting.
:thumb: :thumb:


111a.png
 
bike4life said:
title
Click to expand...

Totally depends on voltage, kv of the motor, size of tires 26" v 29"

Here are some useful tools to check out.
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
https://ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
 
Depends on how much weight is on that trailer.

On a regular commuter type bike, upright seating position, with a rider that weighs less than 200 pounds, on flat ground, without a big wind, 1600w can get you to about 35 mph. Depending on the voltage, the winding of the motor, and the size of the motor wheels rim. A rough guide is you can reach 20 mph on 400w, but in many weather or slope conditions it takes 600w. Similarly, 1000w can get you 30 mph, but again in ideal conditions. 1500w can be used to get to 30 mph in some situations. Just a tiny bit of wind or less than 1% grade can eat up a lot of watts. 1600w can reach 35, but most of the time you won't be riding in those conditions.

And never, hauling that lead sled trailer.

So you see,,, it depends. on a lot of shit. This is why comparisons of e bike performance in reviews are often 99% junk science. When I did motor kit reviews and testing, I ran identical voltages, on identical bikes, same rider, same route, same amount of pedaling, (none) AND same weather including the temperature.
 
Agree. Don't want to discourage him, other than thinking doing what he wants makes it legal. He reads the law one way, the cop another, and the judge another. Its how the system works. To work that system best, pedal like hell and don't get that ticket. And know it, if some cop hates you.

Re the 3000w,, with near identical motors, I never got to 40 mph without 3000w, when I was building bikes for the races against the gassers. I could give a f about charts. I just went to the track with that motor, and beat some gassers with 40 mph.. I ran 72v 40 amps. The next year the gassers went out and bought snowmobile motors, so I went to 110v 40 amps. I was quick, but the motor fried with two laps to go in the race.

Its been well known here on ES for about ten years, that the recipe for a poor mans 40 mph bike is the same motor he has, and a 72v 40 amps controller. We ride these bikes, and have a cycleanalyst on the handlebars, and know the watts we are pulling at all times. That's how we know. Not some chart. Its real data, with our bike, our weight, our weather, our grade of hill. Who cares about the chart? Its what we need to go 40 mph that matters to us.

Obviously, if you build it too inefficient, you waste quite a lot of your watts into heat. At about 2000w, the motor he has starts to suffer, and suffers more at 3000w. Thats why the chart does not apply to that motor past 1500w. Its a 500w rated motor, so you put 3000w into it, and you got 30-40 min till it melts.
 
Great post and those numbers are pretty accurate, IMO. My X1 Pro Gen 2 with Samsung Q battery pack will push my MTB close to 45 mph on the dead flat. The motor in my configuration is rated for 2800 max watts, not sure about continuous. But as noted below any grade at all, wind, etc, takes a heavy toll. And in any case it isn't something that I would do for long duration. In addition to draining the battery something would probably smoke.

But Dan, I see you are the dogman. Do you pull a dog trailer? I will be attempting that soon on my TSDZ2 bike... but not yet. This weekend will be on the pedal bike. Pretty much dead flat and will keep to ~ 12 mph. It should be able to hack that for 12 miles up to lunch and 12 miles back. I need to put a motor on my GFs bike so she can pull the little guy, too.

dogman dan said:
Depends on how much weight is on that trailer.

On a regular commuter type bike, upright seating position, with a rider that weighs less than 200 pounds, on flat ground, without a big wind, 1600w can get you to about 35 mph. Depending on the voltage, the winding of the motor, and the size of the motor wheels rim. A rough guide is you can reach 20 mph on 400w, but in many weather or slope conditions it takes 600w. Similarly, 1000w can get you 30 mph, but again in ideal conditions. 1500w can be used to get to 30 mph in some situations. Just a tiny bit of wind or less than 1% grade can eat up a lot of watts. 1600w can reach 35, but most of the time you won't be riding in those conditions.

And never, hauling that lead sled trailer.

So you see,,, it depends. on a lot of shit. This is why comparisons of e bike performance in reviews are often 99% junk science. When I did motor kit reviews and testing, I ran identical voltages, on identical bikes, same rider, same route, same amount of pedaling, (none) AND same weather including the temperature.
Click to expand...
 
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