Pls help: looking for compatible 36v-48v ~20a Controller/display combo for testing/troubleshooting

T

Twistgripper

100 mW
Joined
Sep 20, 2019
Messages
35
Hi all, just looking for a low cost controller and display that will be compatible with a Bafang G60 36v 500w fat motor
(RM G060.500.DC 07, 008F1S3270645, G60_STD 8.2 Rpm/v).
I'm ok with buying from Aliexpress/amzn/ebay.

Requirements: sensor or sensorless compatible, z9 plug type but can rig up pigtail if needed (i have an adapter), 17-22 amps peak. Pedal assist sensor compatible, and preferably with a 12v output for headlight/taillight.

I've read that motors and controllers need to be matched or the phases may be not synced up right??? not sure i understand and Grin was not very helpful just mentioned doing the "36 step pinout dance" or something like that, which im sure i could learn but havent found a good video "how to" on that yet.

does the controller angle rating matter (60 or 120 degree)? - could not find that spec anywhere on this motor.

Background info if you care to read:
I have a Grin Technologies fat rear hub kit with issues I cannot seem to test for using the standard no load tests. Either motor or controller has a problem that only exhibits itself under load (riding the bike). Controller is Grinfineon 20a, display is cycle analyst v3.1 which i really dont like (too much info/settings, really dont want that) as i will be selling bike and want to make it more idiot proof for the next owner. Just trying a known good controller could save me a lot of time and headaches...so i can rule it out or find out if the controller was the problem.
 
by Twistgripper » Sep 12 2021 11:02pm

Hi all, just looking for a low cost controller and display that will be compatible with a Bafang G60 36v 500w fat motor
(RM G060.500.DC 07, 008F1S3270645, G60_STD 8.2 Rpm/v).
I'm ok with buying from Aliexpress/amzn/ebay.

Requirements: sensor or sensorless compatible, z9 plug type but can rig up pigtail if needed (i have an adapter), 17-22 amps peak. Pedal assist sensor compatible, and preferably with a 12v output for headlight/taillight.

I've read that motors and controllers need to be matched or the phases may be not synced up right??? not sure i understand and Grin was not very helpful just mentioned doing the "36 step pinout dance" or something like that, which im sure i could learn but havent found a good video "how to" on that yet.

does the controller angle rating matter (60 or 120 degree)? - could not find that spec anywhere on this motor.

Background info if you care to read:
I have a Grin Technologies fat rear hub kit with issues I cannot seem to test for using the standard no load tests. Either motor or controller has a problem that only exhibits itself under load (riding the bike). Controller is Grinfineon 20a, display is cycle analyst v3.1 which i really dont like (too much info/settings, really dont want that) as i will be selling bike and want to make it more idiot proof for the next owner. Just trying a known good controller could save me a lot of time and headaches...so i can rule it out or find out if the controller was the problem.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for all your trouble. Grin is one of the trusted sellers with tech support. I know they have been busy and do not respond well lately.

Here is what you are looking for How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor

Here is something to think about. When you buy a cheap controller you will not get any tech support and luck to get any documentation. You will need to wire up the controller to your motor and throttle. Good news is the CA may not plug in, so you don't need to worry about that.

Is this the kit you purchased? Rear Fatbike Ready-to-Roll Kit

You could just have a bad connection in a wire. It happens.

Cycle Analyst (CA)- There is nothing else like the CA on the market. It basically controls your throttle. It has no control over how your controller is wired to the motor that is physical.

Don't know what problem you are having outside of " I cannot seem to test for using the standard no load tests.". That just means wheel off the ground and spin the motor. I can only guess the motor does not spin?

Others will be happy to recommend a cheap controller. If you bought a kit and the controller or motor is bad Grin will replace it.
 
’’Either motor or controller has a problem that only exhibits itself under load (riding the bike)’’

And what exactly is it doing?

Finding the proper phase wiring between the controller and motor is very simple. It is the explanations that are sometimes complicated. I do this with alligator clips, making it easy snd fast. You just color match the hall sensor wires at first. Then color match one phase, then try swapping colors for the other 2 phases until you until the motor spins fine, or you had tried them all combinations. Then you color match another phase, and try swapping the other 2 until you have a fine spinning, etc...

Most of the time it will spin after a few tries, but it may spin backward. Then you swap 2 phases, any two but only 2, and now go swapping only two of the three hall sensor colors (only three choices) and one of them will make it spin forward.

If you buy another controller, you will have to do it anyway. It is very rare that some seller will give you choice of connectors when you buy a controller. Normally you have to install the proper connectors yourself, but it will be only a few of them that will need to be replaced. You don’t buy a controller with connectors type as a requirement. You buy it for the functions and power that you need.

When you buy a kit, most of the time all connectors will match unless you had replaced one of the components in the kit.

Problems with new components are not common. Most of the problems are improper installation and/or setting by the user.

If course the angle setting is important, 120° being the most common.

PAS is implemented in most controllers. But, setting is much simpler if you buy a kit and install it as is.

You don’t need all the functions of a CA, but having them all is good for complete and precise setting. You just change the parameter that you need and display what you want to see. The rest is waiting for you to need/want more. Most of the Chinese displays that are included in kits are crap. I find better buying controllers that can work alone without a display.
 
ZeroEm said:
I'm sorry for all your trouble. Grin is one of the trusted sellers with tech support. I know they have been busy and do not respond well lately.

Here is what you are looking for How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor

Here is something to think about. When you buy a cheap controller you will not get any tech support and luck to get any documentation. You will need to wire up the controller to your motor and throttle. Good news is the CA may not plug in, so you don't need to worry about that.

Is this the kit you purchased? Rear Fatbike Ready-to-Roll Kit

You could just have a bad connection in a wire. It happens.

Cycle Analyst (CA)- There is nothing else like the CA on the market. It basically controls your throttle. It has no control over how your controller is wired to the motor that is physical.

Don't know what problem you are having outside of " I cannot seem to test for using the standard no load tests.". That just means wheel off the ground and spin the motor. I can only guess the motor does not spin?

Others will be happy to recommend a cheap controller. If you bought a kit and the controller or motor is bad Grin will replace it.
Click to expand...

sorry didn't give all the details, was trying to keep it short. Thank you for the link for the wiring. Yes that is the kit or nearly identical (this is from 2018 i believe) I wasnt being fair. Grin support was great up until we pinpointed it is either the controller or motor.

SO HERE IS THE PROBLEM/SYMPTOMS:
Power is very weak when using PAS (this bike came with PAS only, no throttle)…feels more like about 100-150 watts assistance. motor is “pulsing” feels like around 2 pulses per second…,not jerky or erratic and no nasty noises, just an undulating constant regular pulsing. Pulsing occurred at any speed but more noticeable at slower speeds like 10-15 kph then smoother at higher speeds. Using Pas - motor pulses no matter what I do: sensored, sensorless, lowered gain settings, 500w, 700w. No change. Cannot bypass CA with Pedal assist sensor - not with these connectors anyways.
SO I HOOKED UP A THROTTLE I HAD LYING AROUND:
Throttle- CA - bypass mode (Throttle direct to controller): smooth power and strong.
Throttle - CA - Pass Thru Mode( throttle signal goes through CA first): pulses
Throttle - wired bypass (eliminate CA) - connect directly to controller set to SENSORLESS: Smooth power and strong
Throttle - wired bypass (eliminate CA) - connect directly to controller set to SENSORED: Motor pulses

I think again this points to a motor hall sensor or controller problem. GRIN tech suggests a problem likely with the hall sensors even though they pass all tests. I just want to try a new controller to confirm the issue is the motor. I can use the controller for testing other bikes or use it on another bike eventually so it wont be a waste.

Grin had no further tests for me to try except the "36 step pinout dance" but offered no instructions how to do that. I also really don't think that is the issue since (according to previous owner) this bike did perform flawlessly until there was an incident that fried the Cycle analyst. Prev. owner replaced the CA and then couldnt figure it out then brought it to me. I discovered z9 connector had melted at one of the 3 phase wires. Replaced z9 motor connector taking extreme care and protection. (other end was perfect, no visible damage, opened controller, no shorts, continuity good) but the symptoms did not change...so I am suspecting either internal motor damage OR controller...or maybe the parts are fine, this is normal but a bad combination of parts (read on).

To add even more complexity, the Grinfineon manual (pg4.1) even describes this power oscillation at full throttle when sensored. It describes exactly the behavior the bike is exhibiting....and recommends running sensorless which does work, but presents its own problems (cant start from dead stop, can't use PAS).

With no load, the wheel spins fine and you could not detect the pulsing. Grin has no further tests that could definitively confirm if the motor or controller is faulty. Which leads me to the original question: can you recommend a compatible controller other than the grinfineon, so i can rule it out or confirm if controller is the problem?
 
MadRhino said:
And what exactly is it doing?

...You don’t buy a controller with connectors type as a requirement. You buy it for the functions and power that you need.

If course the angle setting is important, 120° being the most common.

You don’t need all the functions of a CA, .. Most of the Chinese displays that are included in kits are crap. I find better buying controllers that can work alone without a display.
Click to expand...

Thanks, see my other response for more detail on the problem if you care to read it.

I only specified the z9 connector as it would save me a lot of time, but i can rig up a pigtail connector to a different connector if needed.

I could not find the angle setting of the motor anywhere in specifications...but other kits show controllers that specify 120 deg...so i'll assume 120 deg for now.

As for display, i plan to fix and sell this bike, so i'm assuming most ebike buyers want a display.
 
Still trying to figure out what controller you have: Grinfineon Controllers 20a, 25a, 35a or a baserunner. don't remember how long they have been selling the baserunner.

according to previous owner
Click to expand...
with this statement, I guessing you bought the bike used. Did it work ok then or did the seller pass his problems to you?

I could not find the angle setting of the motor anywhere in specifications...but other kits show controllers that specify 120 deg...so i'll assume 120 deg for now.
Click to expand...
Need to leave this idea alone! The controller is matched to the motor timing. The CA only controls the throttle, the controller if it was programmable you could adjust for 60 deg or 120 deg. If you have a Grinfineon this is not adjustable (need to know what controller it is?)

Throttle- CA - bypass mode (Throttle direct to controller): smooth power and strong.
Click to expand...
This make me think that the motor and controller are working ok but without any power limits or PAS issues. It the bike have been working for over two years then don't think you have a phase or halls mismatch.

Could have a problem with the PAS sensor or the CA limiting something!

Just wondering what Battery you have?

Have you tried to raise you amp limit in the CA?

I run a Grinfineon 40a controller with CA3 and use PAS 90% of the time and a Throttle 10%. I have a digital switch to control the PAS pwr level.
Have never had a
just an undulating constant regular pulsing
Click to expand...
Have had a pulsing when the CA was hitting my set Amp limit set. It is much smoother when hitting a Watt limit.

I don't feel qualified to suggest a cheap controller, many because the bike is a PAS only and you would need a controller with display to setup PAS or a high end controller that is programmable.

You can bypass the CA with a throttle only to the Grinfineon controller.
 
ZeroEm said:
what controller you have?

according to previous owner
Click to expand...
with this statement, I guessing you bought the bike used. Did it work ok then or did the seller pass his problems to you?

I could not find the angle setting of the motor anywhere in specifications...but other kits show controllers that specify 120 deg...so i'll assume 120 deg for now.
Click to expand...
Need to leave this idea alone! The controller is matched to the motor timing. The CA only controls the throttle, the controller if it was programmable you could adjust for 60 deg or 120 deg. If you have a Grinfineon this is not adjustable (need to know what controller it is?)

Throttle- CA - bypass mode (Throttle direct to controller): smooth power and strong.
Click to expand...
This make me think that the motor and controller are working ok but without any power limits or PAS issues. It the bike have been working for over two years then don't think you have a phase or halls mismatch.

Could have a problem with the PAS sensor or the CA limiting something!

Just wondering what Battery you have?

Have you tried to raise you amp limit in the CA?

I run a Grinfineon 40a controller with CA3 and use PAS 90% of the time and a Throttle 10%. I have a digital switch to control the PAS pwr level. Have never had a
just an undulating constant regular pulsing
Click to expand...
Have had a pulsing when the CA was hitting my set Amp limit set. It is much smoother when hitting a Watt limit.

I don't feel qualified to suggest a cheap controller, many because the bike is a PAS only and you would need a controller with display to setup PAS or a high end controller that is programmable.

You can bypass the CA with a throttle only to the Grinfineon controller.
Click to expand...

I have the Grinfineon 20a model...
I took the bike on trade knowing it had this problem. just proving more difficult to solve than I anticipated.
Former owner said it ran fine when he first got it, then there was a problem and the CA fried, so he replaced the CA...after that power pulsing. and then i found melted connector where the z9 connector connects motor to controller, so i replaced the motor connector splicing in a new one (yes ensured all pinouts the same, colors matched...clean solder job and well protected each wire). Bike was working previously in sensored mode too though and now it pulses. and i have ruled out the CA by bypassing it completely and still pulses in sensored mode. This is why i'm ready to just try another controller and see if the behavior changes.
Battery is from grin. 36v, 23AH. shows full voltage...
 
The problem is that when you bypass the CA it works ok. The new controller will fix this because you will get rid of CA. The new controller will need to support pas with a display to set it up.
 
ZeroEm said:
The problem is that when you bypass the CA it works ok. The new controller will fix this because you will get rid of CA. The new controller will need to support pas with a display to set it up.
Click to expand...

the motor still pulses when i eliminate the CA and use a throttle but only if controller is in sensored mode. If I unplug the jst connector inside the grinfineon controller to run sensorless, power delivery is good...but then you have the problem of not being able to start from dead stop...
 
SO HERE IS THE PROBLEM/SYMPTOMS:
Power is very weak when using PAS (this bike came with PAS only, no throttle)…feels more like about 100-150 watts assistance. motor is “pulsing” feels like around 2 pulses per second…,not jerky or erratic and no nasty noises, just an undulating constant regular pulsing. Pulsing occurred at any speed but more noticeable at slower speeds like 10-15 kph then smoother at higher speeds. Using Pas - motor pulses no matter what I do: sensored, sensorless, lowered gain settings, 500w, 700w. No change. Cannot bypass CA with Pedal assist sensor - not with these connectors anyways.
SO I HOOKED UP A THROTTLE I HAD LYING AROUND:

Throttle- CA - bypass mode (Throttle direct to controller): smooth power and strong.
Click to expand...
 
Simplest thing to do, get another Grinfineon controller and plug it in. Can not recommend another cheap controller, they are cheap and will need to be wired to your motor. The better controllers need to be tuned to the motor and if the motor has issues then that would be hard.

Sorry, you have to deal with someone problem. If the bike has had the CA over heat (can not get my head around that one) and motor connector melt. You could have melted wires in the wiring harness or in the motor as well as the controller.

Find a controller that supports PAS as well as Sensor less with a display. Controllers need to be wired up for the CA for it to work.
All the information is here in ES to do it all but will take time.

It could be a bad hall sensor or its wire.
 
ZeroEm said:
Simplest thing to do, get another Grinfineon controller and plug it in. Can not recommend another cheap controller, they are cheap and will need to be wired to your motor. The better controllers need to be tuned to the motor and if the motor has issues then that would be hard.
Find a controller that supports PAS as well as Sensor less with a display. Controllers need to be wired up for the CA for it to work.
All the information is here in ES to do it all but will take time.
Click to expand...

I hear you, I was looking at the KT-22A controller as its available with the Z9 connector - and cheap enough it might just be worth getting to try and hope by luck its plug and play, but can do the wiring match up now that i have enough instruction how to do it.

If that fails I will just pick up another grinfineon to try...all these parts can be used on other projects so its not a waste in my mind anyways...
Thanks for all your input...
 
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