How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 08 2021 6:08pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Nov 08 2021 5:48pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 08 2021 3:08pm
Your suggestion works well enough as long as a relatively large battery pack accompanies it.
Nope. Same-same. You don't get any magic "more power from fewer cells" by tricky combinations of S and P parameters.
According to the ebikes.ca motor simulator lower voltage at higher amps makes more power than higher volts at lower amps at low wheel speed.

Now try getting that same low speed power (for climbing) with a single voltage while maintaining the same moped top speed as the higher voltage at lower amps. This while using a battery pack with the same number of cells (at the same stress per cell). You won't be able to do it. The stress per cell will always be higher and that is why you will always need a bigger battery pack when using a single voltage.

Are you ready to throw in the towel yet and admit I am right about this?

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 08 2021 10:19pm

There are always people that come here and state unreal things and tell everyone that they are wrong. Simulators are great to give an idea of performance. Need to use controllers, motors and batteries that are real in the simulator.

Most here know how to get low end torque and/or high speed or the right mix. Talking about a 72V 20a controller that does not exist or no one would buy is a waste of time. If you are going to run 72V you need the amps to pull that speed. If you don't need all that power then you would run a low voltage, amp setup.

Back to solid state batteries! Don't think they will change much unless they communicate with the controllers.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by JackFlorey » Nov 08 2021 11:09pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 08 2021 6:08pm
Are you ready to throw in the towel yet and admit I am right about this?
Some people are able to learn from other people's mistakes. Some people just have to make the mistakes on their own and (hopefully) learn from them. The important thing in either case is that they learn.

Good luck.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 09 2021 12:31am

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 08 2021 10:19pm
There are always people that come here and state unreal things and tell everyone that they are wrong.
Do you think you are one of those people?

You are actually the person who started this discussion (in this thread) about the 72v switching to 36v calling a 'two speed" and stating "This would keep me in the best range for each task":

viewtopic.php?p=1681129#p1681129

What happened? Why are you now contradicting your previous views?

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 09 2021 10:14am

Yes, Was talking about. Like the idea and still think about it. To make it work right it would be complicated. Switching from 72v to 36v is a big leap. 36v to 54V would be better. The issue from switching from Series back to parallel is you don't know what the cell level balance is. If they are to far out of balance then you would have issues. So to make it work correctly you would need balance board that would communicate with each other when to far out then shut down. Then there is the switching electronics. To much to make it work correctly.

What was talking about and people are telling you is if you don't believe them then build it and test it. Show the results to prove them wrong. I know you are looking for different ways of doing things that is a good thing. Most has been done and is well documented. To say it's all wrong is going out on a limb.

I read most of all your post, find it interesting. Just stay calm and discuss away.

I like higher voltage so more watts can be pushed thru small wires. Never wanted an 80a controller and still don't. 40a is a good middle of the road between slow and fast.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 13 2021 4:34pm

Solid State batteries should help the Pedi-cabs too, but I suspect more of these type of vehicles will convert to carrying non-human cargo over time.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Nov 13 2021 5:29pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 09 2021 10:14am
Yes, Was talking about. Like the idea and still think about it. To make it work right it would be complicated. Switching from 72v to 36v is a big leap. 36v to 54V would be better.
My former employer used to have some old Lead-acid battery powered golf carts. Not sure how they worked but they had four speeds: 12, 24, 36, 48 volts. They were shipped across country to another location with the batteries removed. When/where they arrived no one had any idea how to hook them back up and they were eventually scrapped.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by calab » Nov 15 2021 5:11am

The guy likes confrontation, the online persona got his thread locked. Some people are just like it, it adds character and a bit of laughter and humor to reading the forum threads. Spices things up and stirs the pot.
More watts is fun and to many people go for small setups and end up getting discouraged or just do not ride at all. I have learned that keeping things simple is the best way to go. Controller wattage is relative, you mentioned 36V and 54V and both can be used on a single controller with a set discharge rate in current amps, one has 70% more watts then the other and a few people have posted that they'd want to be able to switch on the fly which can be done and nothing to special about it after isolating the batteries.
The multi speed golf carts is interesting, if what you say is right, it would just kick down 48V via a converter to the other speeds, probably an older design or more likely a custom design. Were the golf carts real old or fairly new if you could tell at all?
ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 09 2021 10:14am
I read most of all your post, find it interesting. Just stay calm and discuss away.

I like higher voltage so more watts can be pushed thru small wires. Never wanted an 80a controller and still don't. 40a is a good middle of the road between slow and fast.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 15 2021 6:54am

Little confrontation is entertaining as long as it does not get out of control. Most of this has been hashed out over the years (before me). Still like to revisit and see if any new ideas come about.

I do two types of riding which my eTrike does quite well. Riding with the cars outside of town can just crank it up and ride. Most of my riding is on City pathways or Greenways. These are low speed twists, turns mixed with hills. Trike does fine, motor is turning below 50% but is not under a load as it's slow enough that pedaling helps. A two speed setup would work great. Was just visiting the idea of lower voltage for the slower riding.

illegalbike has mounted a DD at the pivot point and now thinking that with two different sprockets would work even better. Don't mix my riding, do one or the other so changing sprockets would not be that big a deal for me.

by calab » Nov 15 2021 5:11am

The guy likes confrontation, the online persona got his thread locked. Some people are just like it, it adds character and a bit of laughter and humor to reading the forum threads. Spices things up and stirs the pot.
More watts is fun and to many people go for small setups and end up getting discouraged or just do not ride at all. I have learned that keeping things simple is the best way to go. Controller wattage is relative, you mentioned 36V and 54V and both can be used on a single controller with a set discharge rate in current amps, one has 70% more watts then the other and a few people have posted that they'd want to be able to switch on the fly which can be done and nothing to special about it after isolating the batteries.
The multi speed golf carts is interesting, if what you say is right, it would just kick down 48V via a converter to the other speeds, probably an older design or more likely a custom design. Were the golf carts real old or fairly new if you could tell at all?
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by calab » Nov 15 2021 7:19pm

Lower voltage only helps to limit your human instincts of twisting the throttle more as time goes on and as long as you have the throttle available you will always keep going faster and faster, municipalities and counties have made trillions of that, but do you see the government cracking down on vehicle manufacturers to limit horse power and speeds. What you'd need is a custom throttle like some of those Ardruino's, be cheaper then buying a lower voltage battery, and you dont really lose anything if your going 15mph on a 72V battery controller combo.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Nov 15 2021 7:35pm

calab wrote:
Nov 15 2021 5:11am
Were the golf carts real old or fairly new if you could tell at all?
Well ... let me scratch my ... seems to me they would have had to have been purchased around the 2000 (and likely the cheapest thing available). I do not think that they used a converter. I think it was more adding or subtracting the batteries in series.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 16 2021 4:45pm

Don't know if anyone remembers this. Maybe why it was in the back of my head. There was an home made electric Volkswagen beetle that used 12v batteries in series to regulate speed. As the throttle was pushed it would add more in series. Read about it in the late 1980's. Looked for it but nothing. No internet then to archive. It was called VoltsWagen.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Chalo » Nov 17 2021 12:36am

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 16 2021 4:45pm
Don't know if anyone remembers this. Maybe why it was in the back of my head. There was an home made electric Volkswagen beetle that used 12v batteries in series to regulate speed. As the throttle was pushed it would add more in series. Read about it in the late 1980's. Looked for it but nothing. No internet then to archive. It was called VoltsWagen.
A clever hack in its day perhaps, but what a way to leave a bunch of range on the table (during a time when range was the resource in shortest supply). It would take a pretty decent sensing, logic, and power switching system to keep a bunch of lead batteries mostly balanced if that was the way you throttled. If you had that kind of electronic juju, you'd use it to do PWM speed control instead.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Ianhill » Nov 17 2021 6:06am

Im sure theres been a resistive setup used like a scalexteic controller, on a winters day under your seat i see its appeal but other than that its crazy inefficient.

The world is about to explode and its all based around vr goggles, sony has a micro oled display that can produce a 4k image on a sub 1 inch screen with room left over for IR emitters and receivers on said panel to not only do high level visuals but also track the eye postion in the scene all with one panel for those that managed to get a ps5(not myself yet i wont be scalped) stuffs about to really advanced.


Why use eye tracking they only need to use high resolution were there eye is focused very simular to how the brain sees and limits data through put it means a ps5 with 4k max tv resolution can drive 2 panels close on 4k with 120hz max rather than one as only a section needs be at full detail.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by speedmd » Jan 19 2022 11:06am

Ianhill wrote:
Nov 02 2021 6:33pm
Chalo wrote:
Nov 02 2021 11:23am
Ianhill wrote:
Oct 31 2021 12:33pm
why all the effort of making a giga press to then use a different cell type thats inferior.
Because Chinese EVs are going to have to get by without cobalt, or everybody will have to get by without cobalt. Whoever does the best/cheapest job of that will win a major theater in the battery wars.
Slight inconvenience then makes sence now why some of the mills bits are so damn expensive compared to 15 year ago the bastards.

Yes move to no cobalt much better lol
More details posted recently on the Gigapress. It has nothing to do with batteries. It is a 12000 ton (clamp pressure) aluminum injection molding (loosely called "die casting") machine that is large enough to make the entire car chassis in one shot. They patented some new alloys recently also.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 19 2022 4:40pm

https://www.torquenews.com/15475/first- ... h-kg-ratio

The QuantumScape batteries are nearly doubling the Tesla batteries in watt hours per kilogram but what I think is even more useful is that they quadruple watt hour per volume. This, in addition to charging faster of course.

I bring up the watt hour per volume because packaging on a bike can be tough.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by Chalo » Jan 20 2022 2:44am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 19 2022 4:40pm
The Blahblahblah batteries are nearly doubling the blahblahblahblah
If you'd been around awhile, paying attention, you'd understand that remarkable claims about new battery tech are as common as real, available battery advances are uncommon.

Until you can buy it and test it and report back with your findings, it's just hot air. Smart money says it's an investment scam, because that's usually what it is.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jan 20 2022 8:14am

I just saw something yesterday where a Tesla with their "new" batteries drove a little over 700 miles.

If true, there should be more chatter soon, and I will remain skeptical until there is independent verification.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by speedmd » Jan 20 2022 9:50am

Hard to say what tesla was showing with the 700 mile claims. Reasonably certain if so it was not just the battery swap responsible and they may have added some additional "feathering" to it to reduce the low load consumption while hyper miling.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by JackFlorey » Jan 20 2022 12:05pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jan 20 2022 8:14am
I just saw something yesterday where a Tesla with their "new" batteries drove a little over 700 miles.
At a constant 55mph. Even with a stock Tesla you could get 500-600 miles with that driving schedule.

One article I saw mentioned that they used two sets of batteries - one LFP, the second one unspecified but probably li-ion. This may be that "one pack for power one pack for energy" thing that we see discussed here often. I won't hold my breath, though.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by JackFlorey » Jan 20 2022 12:11pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 20 2022 2:44am
If you'd been around awhile, paying attention, you'd understand that remarkable claims about new battery tech are as common as real, available battery advances are uncommon.
Yep. Silicon anode, lithium-sulfur, solid state, aluminum-air, saltwater, nano-something-something announcements are a dime a dozen.

But now 10 years later silicon anode still isn't here. The one lithium-sulfur manufacturer is out of business. Solid state is still coming Any Day Now. No alumimum-air. Aqueon folded. And batteries are just as not-"nano" as they ever were.

Hopefully one day we'll see these advancements. But most of the advancements are going to come from refinement of what we have now. Personally I think the next big advance will come from LFP. As Tesla starts using them for cars, we are going to see fairly rapid increases in performance (energy density, power density.)

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by spinningmagnets » Jan 20 2022 1:07pm

I think sodium and sulfur-based batteries will gain a rapid foothold in stationary applications like Tesla's Australian grid power-leveling station.

Its a long story how Tesla began using LFP in Chinese Tesla vehicles, but...now that they are pivoting in that direction, I foresee major improvements in LFP batteries soon.

Toyota has announced solid-state batteries coming soon, and I believe them.

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by LewTwo » Jan 20 2022 3:19pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jan 20 2022 1:07pm
Its a long story how Tesla began using LFP in Chinese Tesla vehicles, but...now that they are pivoting in that direction, I foresee major improvements in LFP batteries soon.
Clarification: By 'LFP' you mean Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)?
Prime examples Headway and A123 (not to mention my 7 year old Golden Motor battery).

I believe A123 went broke and was purchased by Wanxiang.
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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 20 2022 3:31pm

Semi solid state batteries are supposed to be in cars made by NIO this year. Capacity is 150 kw/h for a over 600 mile range. They (according to NIO) don't have problems in very cold weather like Tesla's LFP batteries.

According to the article below energy density will be 360 wh/kg which about a 40% improvement over Tesla Lion. Hopefully improvement in volume density is also impressive. Would love to see at least a 2x improvement in volume density over Tesla Lion

https://insideevs.com/news/465188/nio-1 ... ries-2022/

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Re: How do you think solid state batteries will change how we use hardware?

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Jan 20 2022 3:46pm

The Sodium-ion cells now being made by CALB in a matched system with the LFP cells because the latter isn't much a fan of cold temps; the Sodium cells seem to be used to heat them up for normal use and to take the surge of power from regen since LFP doesn't have as high as a inrush current rate than Lithium-ion. It's interesting, and I could see more companies taking that dual route with the Sodium cells being replaceable like lead-acids but taking more "jobs" like that.

LFP is going to be the next big cell primarily for cost, but also because of environmentalism- they are far cheaper to make, much hardier, and the Iron and Phosphate groups are obviously common. Lithium is the only thing that environmentally still has questions on it's sourcing. There's companies shown by Munroe that have already made functional prototype skateboards that are LFP based that are 80% the range of Lithium ion for far less in cost.

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