markz
100 TW
What do you think would cook first?
1) Cheap phase wires called hookup wire
2) Windings
1) Cheap phase wires called hookup wire
2) Windings
Which would cook first, cheap phase wires or windings?
- Thread starter markz
- Start date
999zip999
100 TW
With me it's usually Hall sensors I can toaste a rotor pretty good also. I just kind of turned down the amps a bit at 72 volt an aluminum stator.
A hub motor can run pretty good all toast it up brown and Rusty inside.
A hub motor can run pretty good all toast it up brown and Rusty inside.
markz
100 TW
When it rains, it pours AHick :lol:
Pictures at the end of the post. Wire insulation burned overlapping inside the motor where I zip tied them, also wires got damage at axle entrance.
Plus a pic of a bent 1/4" steel plate ta.
Plus pics of cracked frame.
Plus pics of spread fork ears.
Stories
What happened today with the cracked frame, which I still rode.
+ 3 days ago I had a slow leak so I took old tube out and could not find the leak, pumped it figuring its good for an 20-30 minutes of riding, but did not seat the ta deep into its slot, so axle spun which bent the 1/4" steel plate ta, seated it back down but wasnt tight and still spun. I will get a picture of the ta. I couldnt use the power and pedaled 1-2km to the train, pair of cops were writing up people for no fare, I sit on the seat but fake walk (using slight throttle) when I am on the platforms, I had ear phones on and grooving, the one cop told me to get off the bike and I did, but he eyeballed me hard. Thankfully train came within 3 minutes while they were still busy.
The walked from my station was 3km home. I did not realize I had a adj wrench I could have used as a ta, if the small hose clamp would have fit, but it was a good workout.
+ 2 days ago I rode on a flat for 5km - Regular brand name tube is toast, tire doable but iffy so I changed the tire. This was during rush hour, no bikes allowed on train, had ear phones going and grooving hard, heard woman over PA pipe up, didnt listen figure it was about me and bikes at rush hour as it was 3:27pm, no bikes at rush hour is in place at 9am-10am or something and 3:30pm-6pm but already paid my $3.50 fare (good for 1.5hrs) so I'm getting on the train. :lol:
OK the newest story, todays story is, found cracked frame, riding back home 8km, battery was full so I knew I would be without e-wheels for awhile. Figured I'd drain both batteries down, so I did circles and crawled up a small 20 go arounds and its a sputter and a walk home, about 1km, but its a good workout.
I have a sensorless 36V 35A Greentime controller. But this just reminds me I have to work smarter not harder and install a temp sensor and get a controller that will accept it. I am thinking Phaserunner myself. However I have 36V battery and 52V battery so, controller lvc is an issue. I use it for the 36V battery, the 52V has a bms that cuts out at lvc.
The broken frame isnt my half ass doing. BTW I am 291lbs today, it broke 3 or 4 days ago I felt a slight wobble, thought it was the hub. The battery on the rear rack is 36V 20Ah Ryobi.
No obvious smell from a slightly opened cover.
Opened it all the way up and the windings are shiny.
Just a slight caramel? smell same as before when I opened it up 2 months ago or so to replace stock wires with cheap hook up wire.
Good news, its the cheap ass wire I installed about 2-3 months ago. The wires were touching inside the motor where I had zip tied them out of the way they criss crossed.
When I was walking home I was moving the wire at the axle exit and half ass inspecting the rest of the wire thinking spun axle frayed the wire, it didnt.
Now its just a matter of what wire do I install, do I half ass it again :lol: No, but local store B&E Electronics doesnt sell good wire. May look at Grintechs selection, but ideally I'd buy PTFE Teflon from a guy in Cali I've bought from before, but can't find his web link. He sells guitar stuff, has 8awg and thinner ptfe teflon wire.
PPPPHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Oh and you can see the red wire at the axle entrance, interesting, thats what I originally thought.
I will have to come up with a solution for that axle entrance.
PS been riding with two ta's, just lost the other one. Spread drop outs not an issue, using large washers. I dont ride fast. Backing nut due to e-abs-low use is an issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit - Did not add any more pics. Just text, quote and links below.
Good to know I could buy stator and cover plates from Leafbike.com
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/rear-rotor-winding-48v-52v-1500w-hub-motor-part-1097.html
Otherwise $188usd + $98 s/h
hub motor itself + stator/cover plates $140 s/h
stator/cover plates $92 s/h
$125 for 1000w magnet ring inside cast rim + stator/c.p.
laced hub alone $124 s/h
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures
Pictures at the end of the post. Wire insulation burned overlapping inside the motor where I zip tied them, also wires got damage at axle entrance.
Plus a pic of a bent 1/4" steel plate ta.
Plus pics of cracked frame.
Plus pics of spread fork ears.
Stories
What happened today with the cracked frame, which I still rode.
+ 3 days ago I had a slow leak so I took old tube out and could not find the leak, pumped it figuring its good for an 20-30 minutes of riding, but did not seat the ta deep into its slot, so axle spun which bent the 1/4" steel plate ta, seated it back down but wasnt tight and still spun. I will get a picture of the ta. I couldnt use the power and pedaled 1-2km to the train, pair of cops were writing up people for no fare, I sit on the seat but fake walk (using slight throttle) when I am on the platforms, I had ear phones on and grooving, the one cop told me to get off the bike and I did, but he eyeballed me hard. Thankfully train came within 3 minutes while they were still busy.
The walked from my station was 3km home. I did not realize I had a adj wrench I could have used as a ta, if the small hose clamp would have fit, but it was a good workout.
+ 2 days ago I rode on a flat for 5km - Regular brand name tube is toast, tire doable but iffy so I changed the tire. This was during rush hour, no bikes allowed on train, had ear phones going and grooving hard, heard woman over PA pipe up, didnt listen figure it was about me and bikes at rush hour as it was 3:27pm, no bikes at rush hour is in place at 9am-10am or something and 3:30pm-6pm but already paid my $3.50 fare (good for 1.5hrs) so I'm getting on the train. :lol:
OK the newest story, todays story is, found cracked frame, riding back home 8km, battery was full so I knew I would be without e-wheels for awhile. Figured I'd drain both batteries down, so I did circles and crawled up a small 20 go arounds and its a sputter and a walk home, about 1km, but its a good workout.
AHicks said:
I have a sensorless 36V 35A Greentime controller. But this just reminds me I have to work smarter not harder and install a temp sensor and get a controller that will accept it. I am thinking Phaserunner myself. However I have 36V battery and 52V battery so, controller lvc is an issue. I use it for the 36V battery, the 52V has a bms that cuts out at lvc.
999zip999 said:
The broken frame isnt my half ass doing. BTW I am 291lbs today, it broke 3 or 4 days ago I felt a slight wobble, thought it was the hub. The battery on the rear rack is 36V 20Ah Ryobi.
No obvious smell from a slightly opened cover.
Opened it all the way up and the windings are shiny.
Just a slight caramel? smell same as before when I opened it up 2 months ago or so to replace stock wires with cheap hook up wire.
Good news, its the cheap ass wire I installed about 2-3 months ago. The wires were touching inside the motor where I had zip tied them out of the way they criss crossed.
When I was walking home I was moving the wire at the axle exit and half ass inspecting the rest of the wire thinking spun axle frayed the wire, it didnt.
Now its just a matter of what wire do I install, do I half ass it again :lol: No, but local store B&E Electronics doesnt sell good wire. May look at Grintechs selection, but ideally I'd buy PTFE Teflon from a guy in Cali I've bought from before, but can't find his web link. He sells guitar stuff, has 8awg and thinner ptfe teflon wire.
PPPPHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Oh and you can see the red wire at the axle entrance, interesting, thats what I originally thought.
I will have to come up with a solution for that axle entrance.
PS been riding with two ta's, just lost the other one. Spread drop outs not an issue, using large washers. I dont ride fast. Backing nut due to e-abs-low use is an issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit - Did not add any more pics. Just text, quote and links below.
Good to know I could buy stator and cover plates from Leafbike.com
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/rear-rotor-winding-48v-52v-1500w-hub-motor-part-1097.html
Otherwise $188usd + $98 s/h
hub motor itself + stator/cover plates $140 s/h
stator/cover plates $92 s/h
$125 for 1000w magnet ring inside cast rim + stator/c.p.
laced hub alone $124 s/h
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures
Attachments
markz
100 TW
Still using 14g, its new TEW 105C
https://www.be-electronics.com/product_p/TEW14-21-1.htm
I don't know what temperature sensor to buy, or if B&E even sells it. But I will open it up again after lots of riding to see how the wire zip ties are holding up and keeping the wires in place, then install the temperature sensor .
12g insulation is just to thick to fit 3 in, can fit 2 fine but 3, no.
I am no good at inline wire soldering, I have to Y or V the two wires then twist them tight and solder.
https://www.be-electronics.com/product_p/TEW14-21-1.htm
I don't know what temperature sensor to buy, or if B&E even sells it. But I will open it up again after lots of riding to see how the wire zip ties are holding up and keeping the wires in place, then install the temperature sensor .
12g insulation is just to thick to fit 3 in, can fit 2 fine but 3, no.
I am no good at inline wire soldering, I have to Y or V the two wires then twist them tight and solder.
Attachments
999zip999
100 TW
What motor is that ?
Disclosure 6'4" 244 lbs 63yrs old clothed. That's all you're going to get out of me. Oh A123 20ah 1,480 charge cycles 35,000 miles 9 years old 34 lbs. Loosing cells old age.
Disclosure 6'4" 244 lbs 63yrs old clothed. That's all you're going to get out of me. Oh A123 20ah 1,480 charge cycles 35,000 miles 9 years old 34 lbs. Loosing cells old age.
markz
100 TW
Leaf 35H or commonly 1500W, I think its a 5T, because I did not order what I had before MXUS 45H 4T.
The markings I tried to figure out, theres 5 in there so, 5 Turn 45 but then there "t6" so could be 6 Turn.
Rim is Alex from Grintech in 26", tire needs to be changed. Spokes are Sapim. Wheel aint true, wobbles a bit but theres lot of leeway for a front hub. Hub wouldnt last a week if it was on the rear.
Bike is resting until the frame crack is fixed. I feel different not being able to just get on the ebike and ride, I feel coup'ed up.
Well I weighed myself today 294lbs, height is 6'4" measured last month. I am shrinking as I age :lol:
21700 750wh grin 52V 14.5ah 40A bms
18650 750w hd 36V no bms probably 20ah
Next battery will be most likely an ev battery, hopefully 1500-2500 wh as I need distance.
The markings I tried to figure out, theres 5 in there so, 5 Turn 45 but then there "t6" so could be 6 Turn.
Rim is Alex from Grintech in 26", tire needs to be changed. Spokes are Sapim. Wheel aint true, wobbles a bit but theres lot of leeway for a front hub. Hub wouldnt last a week if it was on the rear.
Bike is resting until the frame crack is fixed. I feel different not being able to just get on the ebike and ride, I feel coup'ed up.
Well I weighed myself today 294lbs, height is 6'4" measured last month. I am shrinking as I age :lol:
21700 750wh grin 52V 14.5ah 40A bms
18650 750w hd 36V no bms probably 20ah
Next battery will be most likely an ev battery, hopefully 1500-2500 wh as I need distance.
999zip999 said:
dogman dan
1 PW
I nearly always fried hall sensors first. But with big enough holes ventilating it, I had one motor last till flames shot out the holes. So I guess it all went up at the same time more or less. I assume most of the flame was combusting varnish on the windings.
But as always, any weak connection makes wiring go up first, which I have seen on phase wires outside the motor plenty of times. Bad plug makes the wires get red hot, melting the insulation, which then shorts the phases. This is why hot rodders hate plugs and do solid crimps, solders, or soldered crimps direct to the controller on the phases.
One trick that can work good, is use the stock size wire inside the hub itself, then switch to insanely oversize phase wire within a few inches of outside the hub. Not only does your outside wire stay cool because it's huge, but it actually heatsinks to the inner wire, keeping it cooler as it exits the axle. So it's less likely to melt through at that point.
Make good connections using a thing called a crimp sleeve. You find them in the AC electric section of a good hardware store. Its just a little piece of copper tube about 5 mm long or so. Then crimp with a good crimper sold in the same place. Solder too if you like, but I never did. Good crimps do the trick. Learn how to crimp good.
But as always, any weak connection makes wiring go up first, which I have seen on phase wires outside the motor plenty of times. Bad plug makes the wires get red hot, melting the insulation, which then shorts the phases. This is why hot rodders hate plugs and do solid crimps, solders, or soldered crimps direct to the controller on the phases.
One trick that can work good, is use the stock size wire inside the hub itself, then switch to insanely oversize phase wire within a few inches of outside the hub. Not only does your outside wire stay cool because it's huge, but it actually heatsinks to the inner wire, keeping it cooler as it exits the axle. So it's less likely to melt through at that point.
Make good connections using a thing called a crimp sleeve. You find them in the AC electric section of a good hardware store. Its just a little piece of copper tube about 5 mm long or so. Then crimp with a good crimper sold in the same place. Solder too if you like, but I never did. Good crimps do the trick. Learn how to crimp good.
999zip999 said:
I'm a newb here, but I keep hearing this issue come up time and time again.
When someone replaces hall sensors, do they usually pick a high temp part? Or just the cheapest?
I suspect the manufacturer put in the cheapest, 50% being cheap + 50% wanting to sell more motors.dogman dan said:
Why not replace the section of the wire inside the hub with high temp silicone insulation wire?
That's roughly 100c to 250c heat tolerance improvement. Real nice high strand silicone wire can be salvaged from most old kitchen appliances. Or an old clothes iron. Don't even need to buy it.
Halls are a vital component, and the best ones are still very cheap. If I go to the trouble of disassembling a hubmotor due to one bad Hall, I will replace all three with name-brand high-temp Halls.
spinningmagnets said:
Nice halls can be several dollars a piece, where as cheap one can be less than 10 cents. That's a small difference relative to other daily expensive, but also a huge difference in relative terms.
Do the nice halls last forever essentially? I don't understand the mode of failure. Only assuming temperature.
markz
100 TW
Hall sensor failure
#1 is heat
#2 is loose halls which isnt epoxied - https://ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotorHallSensorReplacement.pdf
Then its a toss up #3 physical damage.
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Thanks for the reminder Spinning Magnets
I've known about thicker gauge phase wires outside axle, I've never done it but I just might to with my setup along with Statorade when I put my order in for their f&r lights but I need a couple other things to justify the reasonable s/h cost.
------------
I have done that, but its not sold locally or it is but in rolls not bulk.
PTFE Teflon is great, bought from a guy in Cali that I lost the link and forgot the name of, did upgrade my old, now cooked mxus 3kw. Best to do what Spinning Magnets posted, for me its windings to stock 14g (1"), to my 14g TEW through axle to controller. But snip my 14g TEW wire 2" from axle and install 12g Hobby King wire, or 10g or whatever you have or can get.
------------
I soldered my phases, no connector but lots of slack to change tire. Lots of protective tape and heat shrink.
What I am finding with heat shrink, is how do you protect the open end of the heat shrink. Am I using to large a heat shrink that the ends dont seal. What I do is just use electrical tape to cover the open end of the heat shrink, I do that x2, then wrap. I dont do inline splicing, just V or Y, twist and solder.
Inline splicing is hard, I've seen the tricks posted. Flared strands intermingled.
My hardwired phases, I'm just lazy that way. I was actually thinking about using used XT90 that were laying on the floor next to me when I soldered my phases. Two XT90's with one side of a XT90 unused, there was a 10-25% of me going that way, to much work to find a good used XT90, unsolder, fill bowl with solder, tin wire, heat up cup. If a XT90 had enough wire and solder joint looked alright, could have just soldered wire but then a big bump where the two wires are soldered together.
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The good news is the phase wires did not fry my controller. I was 50/50 on that, but when it stopped working the controller would still spit out a half second of power when throttle twisted and bike would jump a half an inch so that was a good sign :thumb:
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Next mission is the bikes cracked frame
#1 is heat
#2 is loose halls which isnt epoxied - https://ebikes.ca/documents/HubMotorHallSensorReplacement.pdf
Then its a toss up #3 physical damage.
------------
Thanks for the reminder Spinning Magnets
I've known about thicker gauge phase wires outside axle, I've never done it but I just might to with my setup along with Statorade when I put my order in for their f&r lights but I need a couple other things to justify the reasonable s/h cost.
------------
I have done that, but its not sold locally or it is but in rolls not bulk.
PTFE Teflon is great, bought from a guy in Cali that I lost the link and forgot the name of, did upgrade my old, now cooked mxus 3kw. Best to do what Spinning Magnets posted, for me its windings to stock 14g (1"), to my 14g TEW through axle to controller. But snip my 14g TEW wire 2" from axle and install 12g Hobby King wire, or 10g or whatever you have or can get.
------------
I soldered my phases, no connector but lots of slack to change tire. Lots of protective tape and heat shrink.
What I am finding with heat shrink, is how do you protect the open end of the heat shrink. Am I using to large a heat shrink that the ends dont seal. What I do is just use electrical tape to cover the open end of the heat shrink, I do that x2, then wrap. I dont do inline splicing, just V or Y, twist and solder.
Inline splicing is hard, I've seen the tricks posted. Flared strands intermingled.
My hardwired phases, I'm just lazy that way. I was actually thinking about using used XT90 that were laying on the floor next to me when I soldered my phases. Two XT90's with one side of a XT90 unused, there was a 10-25% of me going that way, to much work to find a good used XT90, unsolder, fill bowl with solder, tin wire, heat up cup. If a XT90 had enough wire and solder joint looked alright, could have just soldered wire but then a big bump where the two wires are soldered together.
------------
The good news is the phase wires did not fry my controller. I was 50/50 on that, but when it stopped working the controller would still spit out a half second of power when throttle twisted and bike would jump a half an inch so that was a good sign :thumb:
------------
Next mission is the bikes cracked frame
999zip999
100 TW
I had a fat frame like that crack in the same spot they told me they couldn't weld it and make sure it would work.
cheap Halls can be bought for less than a dollar. How much is my time worth?
I have to wait for electronics to arrive in the mail, whether they are cheap or premium.
Disassembly of a hubmotor is not too difficult, just time-consuming and annoying. Then, I have to pry out the broken unit, and epoxy-in the good one, then solder the leads and seal the heat-shrink...
It takes only a small amount of extra time to do three instead of just one. But...maybe its just me...
I have to wait for electronics to arrive in the mail, whether they are cheap or premium.
Disassembly of a hubmotor is not too difficult, just time-consuming and annoying. Then, I have to pry out the broken unit, and epoxy-in the good one, then solder the leads and seal the heat-shrink...
It takes only a small amount of extra time to do three instead of just one. But...maybe its just me...
markz
100 TW
I emailed with clear pictures and explanation, the custom motorcycle shop, $150/hr is the rate and they said they could totally do it. The bicycle builder guy hasnt replied yet, explained in words but no pictures as it was website msg'ing.
Halls
Spinning Magnets is right, how much is YOUR time worth. And its not only the time in fixing, but what about if you get stranded while out riding, thats even more of YOUR time and maybe a cost attached to that break down, like a taxi ride. That is why I like to have wheel sizes and a wheel base that will fit the bus bike rack, every now and then I forget to bring along my tool/parts baggy. I'd say I've done the bus thing 2 or 3 times total, ridden on flat tires many times.
Halls
Spinning Magnets is right, how much is YOUR time worth. And its not only the time in fixing, but what about if you get stranded while out riding, thats even more of YOUR time and maybe a cost attached to that break down, like a taxi ride. That is why I like to have wheel sizes and a wheel base that will fit the bus bike rack, every now and then I forget to bring along my tool/parts baggy. I'd say I've done the bus thing 2 or 3 times total, ridden on flat tires many times.
999zip999 said:
dogman dan
1 PW
Its handy to have your bike fit on the bus, if you do break down.
Almost all of my halls failures happened by heat, and after the ride. Thing rode fine till I parked it, then when the cooling wind stopped the heat spiked inside the hub. This is the main advantage of cooling holes, never lost just the halls in a motor full of holes. They can cool off fast once you stop. Once I caught on to this, I just stopped parking the bike all hot, and never cooked off a hall sensor again.
But statorade should greatly reduce that heat spike after you park. Even so, its not so hard to just cruise it with low power for 10 min after you have made a motor all hot and bothered. Furthermore, I only had this problem when I was pushing 3000w through 500w rated motors. 9c type dd's. Never had the big motors get all that hot.
Almost all of my halls failures happened by heat, and after the ride. Thing rode fine till I parked it, then when the cooling wind stopped the heat spiked inside the hub. This is the main advantage of cooling holes, never lost just the halls in a motor full of holes. They can cool off fast once you stop. Once I caught on to this, I just stopped parking the bike all hot, and never cooked off a hall sensor again.
But statorade should greatly reduce that heat spike after you park. Even so, its not so hard to just cruise it with low power for 10 min after you have made a motor all hot and bothered. Furthermore, I only had this problem when I was pushing 3000w through 500w rated motors. 9c type dd's. Never had the big motors get all that hot.
Broken leads at the case from vibration after the lead has already cracked during handling.Comrade said:
Cheaper parts may have less flexible leads, and may fracture (invisibly to human eyes) at the case (the point at which all the bending loads will start), leading to eventual failure from lead flexing from vibration in use. This is the problem I've had most often, with DD hubs.
Can happen with any leaded component, but is less likely to happen with PCB-mounted parts vs hand-wired parts (halls are often not PCB-mounted, and leads are often not fully secured at the base of the part).
Under high motor loads, heat is a common enough killer of the parts, because they are mounted directly to the stator, which directly pipes the heat from the coils into the part, and there is no cooling in most motors (even those with some external airflow aren't typically getting any of that to the halls). Geared hubs are worse in this regard than even higher power DD hubs, because they have at least twice the heat insulation factor of the DD hub, so whatever heat they do generate is kept in the stator and thus at the halls for much longer. Most of the halls I have killed were in geared hubs.
Additionally, cheaper parts have unknown QC (probably nonexistent), so you don't even really know the capabilities of the parts (you can't really trust any spec sheets they might provide, either, when you get to parts that are less than a tenth or a hundredth the cost of "known good" parts).
It's also possible to kill the halls during an axle-wiring failure incident, particularly one where the cable becomes twisted from axle-spinout. If the phase wire conductors ever come into contact with the hall power or signal wires, the voltages present on the phase wires can be much higher than the tolerances of any of the halls typically used in hubmotors, and either damage or outright destroy the hall sensor. If this happens, it also often damages or destroys the MCU in the controller at the same time, for the same reason, as most controllers have no protection of any kind between the MCU and the hall wires (some use a voltage divider because they use 12v on the signal lines rather than 5v, and this *might* offer enough protection for a momentary spike), and the hall power supply typically comes right off the same 5V the MCU uses.
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