IGH’s (Internally Geared Hub’s) - Sturmey Archer, Shimano, Enviolo, Kindernay, Rohloff

river

100 µW
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Messages
7
I’m interested in hearing about peoples experience with IGH’s paired with mid-drive motors. There seems to be a lot of advice about what works, but frequently it seems the advice is theoretical. It would be great to hear from people who have successful setups. How long have they been using an IGH? What setups are they using? how steep are the hills being climbed? what kinds of terrain are they riding on? etc..

But equally important are the failures. What setups failed? How long did it take to fail? It would be great to understand the limits of each model available. Where is the braking point? But since each setup is unique, small differences can be significant. So as much info about style of bike, style of riding, terrain, weight of the rider, etc. should be included.

Lastly, it would be great if people combining an IGH and a eCargo bike could add comments. Electric motors have made Cargo Bikes a huge new category that pushes the entire bicycle drivetrain to its limits. What are people experiencing?

It would be helpful if people add links to info scattered around the internet in blog posts or other forums. Maybe this can serve as a central location for all the info that already exists, but takes so much effort to find.
 
Hi mate, I have a Yuba Mundo cargo bike that regularly sees in excess of 200kg (might be time for a diet for me and the wife....) (don't tell her I said that).

I had previously run a BBSHD with a Nuvinci N171, but the gearing and shift was just so painful. Since slotted in a rohloff speedhub and it is magical, two and a half years in and several thousand km's no issues with the hub or the motor, I have had a couple of chains shit themselves but that would be the master links I was using.
 
Spinningmagnets!

I can’t tell you how much I appreciated everything you have contributed to this DIY ebike world. Long before I ever started working on any of my own projects, I was absorbing your articles and your many contributions and posts in these ebike forums. The wealth of information you have accumulated over the years and freely shared with everyone is truly amazing! I don’t think we would be where we are without you! So before responding, I just want to say thank you!!

With regard to the links! I’m really happy you posted them. I was actually planning to do it myself. I’m glad you beat me to it. They are super helpful and informative!! Definitely a good source to have linked here right at the top!! Thx!

I want this board to be an open discussion about IGH’s, where people post about their successes and failures. So I don’t really want to dominate the conversation or make this about me. But since I started the post, I will share a little bit about me..

I will say I have not installed an IGH yet, so can’t offer any real life experience. I have been torn between the Shimano Alfine 8 and Nexus 3. Based on your article linked above these would be my options since I’m using a powerful motor with a 135mm dropout. The Nexus 3 was your recommendation if the motor was really high power and really high torque. I’m using a CYC motor, so definitely meets that definition. In fact, I think I exceed what you seem to suggest might be the limits of those hubs, but there is someone that has posted in endless-sphere forums about their success using an Alfine 8 paired with a CYC motor. I reached out to them to find out how it has worked out. I haven’t received a reply yet, but it’s only been a day. I’m very interested to see what their experience was and how it held up over time..
 
Grautuefel said:
Hi mate, I have a Yuba Mundo cargo bike


Grautuefel!
Thanks for leading off the discussion with a successful cargo bike installation! I think if we are going to find any direction forward it will come from cargo bikes. If cargo bikes aren’t braking the hubs, then they are truly worth their weight in gold. And undoubtedly Rohloff is the gold standard in the world of IGH’s.

I’m definitely leaning in that direction, but I’m also curious to find out the limits of the Alfine 8 and Nexus 3. That way, if and when I make the jump, i can do it knowing where their braking points were. It’s good to know the limits of these more affordable options.

Also, thanks for sharing your experience with the NuVinci hub. There is someone that keeps recommending it, but I’ve been skeptical about it. If that person happens to read this, please tell us your story and it’s successes.

I will say, when the time comes for me to make the transition into Rohloff territory, I have to admit I’d be torn between the Rohloff and the Kindernay. The Kindernay has so much going for it. Especially, in terms of flexibility. But when I research kindernay, the only posts I read about are people attempting their first installs and showing off their first couple rides. Someone needs to take one of those hubs and push it to its limits and then post about it. Until that happens, I think most people will go with the one that has a reputation for being reliable.

Anyway, thanks for proving once again, Rohloff is pretty damn impressive!
 
Thank you all for the kind words. I should update the article with new info about 5-speed cargo bike IGH's, since there is more info available now.

I will have to look at the Kindernay, and add any info I can about it...
 
river said:
I’m interested in hearing about peoples experience with IGH’s paired with mid-drive motors. There seems to be a lot of advice about what works, but frequently it seems the advice is theoretical.

Based on the few disassembled hubs after failures that have been posted over the years both on ebike and pedal forums, the two most common failure modes are sheared off teeth from shock loads (where chain slack into the hub is not first taken up before the motor applies load power), and sheared pins that connect the outer drive input to the internal gearing (for those hubs that have this protection, kind of like a "torque fuse").

Another failure can be shifting under load, for a similar reason to the not-taking-up-chain-slack failure mode, and can be prevented by turning off motor power during the shift and ramping it back up afterward.

These failures can also happen to pure pedal inputs, but are less likely since a rider is more likely to take up the chain slack and not just slam down on them every time they start cranking, and they're also likely to stop cranking during a shift for just a moment.


Another failure is caused by the shifter being poorly adjusted so that the gears don't fully mesh, so only some fraction of the tooth faces are actually mating, so much more force is being transferred into a smaller surface area of each gear. This one doesn't matter what the power source is, it's going to wear the gears faster and have more risk of breaking one under load.
 
About the gear hubs with mid-drive ebikes:

I always lubricate the hubs with an oil sump filled with gear oil containing molybdenum:
https://www.molyslip.co.uk/2001g/
(The shell of hub contains permanently about 3 cm³ of oil).
Total weight with driver, bicycle and luggage = approx. 120 kg.

Dual drive, breakage of the axle after approx. 8'000 km, on long, steep roads with a 20% gradient:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/sram-dual-drive-getriebeschaden.39502/post-886354

Shimano Alfine 8, now about 10'000 km and no problems so far, even on steep roads:
https://youtu.be/cmkBnXAdPq4
(the steep hill starts at 33:30, and the descent at 56:00)
Bicycle: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/speedped-motorfahrrad-nur-in-der-schweiz-zugelassen-mit-s-pedelec-vergleichbar.9827/post-1162913
 
river said:
Grautuefel said:
Hi mate, I have a Yuba Mundo cargo bike


Grautuefel!
Thanks for leading off the discussion with a successful cargo bike installation! I think if we are going to find any direction forward it will come from cargo bikes. If cargo bikes aren’t braking the hubs, then they are truly worth their weight in gold. And undoubtedly Rohloff is the gold standard in the world of IGH’s.

I’m definitely leaning in that direction, but I’m also curious to find out the limits of the Alfine 8 and Nexus 3. That way, if and when I make the jump, i can do it knowing where their braking points were. It’s good to know the limits of these more affordable options.

Also, thanks for sharing your experience with the NuVinci hub. There is someone that keeps recommending it, but I’ve been skeptical about it. If that person happens to read this, please tell us your story and it’s successes.

I will say, when the time comes for me to make the transition into Rohloff territory, I have to admit I’d be torn between the Rohloff and the Kindernay. The Kindernay has so much going for it. Especially, in terms of flexibility. But when I research kindernay, the only posts I read about are people attempting their first installs and showing off their first couple rides. Someone needs to take one of those hubs and push it to its limits and then post about it. Until that happens, I think most people will go with the one that has a reputation for being reliable.

Anyway, thanks for proving once again, Rohloff is pretty damn impressive!

In my adventures I did buy some ruined IGHs in the hope that they could be cheaply fix (lol). The dogs that transfer the torque in the nexus 3 were MUCH beefier than those in the alfine 8. Having said that the examples I saw having stripped teeth leads me to believe that the cause of death was transient forces from abrupt shifts, meaning that both seem up to the torque loading .
 
Approximately what top speed should one expect using the 48/52v, 750w Bafang BBS02 and a Sturmey 3sp hub? I’m not quite certain based on the article linked above - would hard acceleration from a stop break the hub in the easier gear?
 
Kindernay XIV on Innotrace Bafang G510 here.

No failure yet as of 3000 km on the hub. Well, first chain failed at 2400 km and I had to flip around the 14T cog on the sprocket at this time as well to access the fresh sides of the teeth.

Definitely need to be careful not to shift under load though. And the actuation speed of shifts isn't as fast as Kindernay lets on. There's also a slight problem with easily shifting in between two gears on a specific gear on the hub, I think this is the 7th gear.

Gear ratios are a bit low for going fast. Was planning belt drive, but may leave that on the drawing table since going the speed I want to isn't physically possible with belt rings being even larger than chainrings (the largest I can possibly fit is a 60T front and 19T rear). On chain this isn't a problem since I currently run 14T rear and could even go smaller.

Overall happy with the hub, although I'd say Kindernay still has some aspects to improve on it.

As they market this especially for e-bikes, I'd love to see them implement a cutoff switch in the lever. Also a "Speed Pedelec" version with higher gear ratios would be a great addition. They also need to address the shifting between gears problem...
 
^^^^^^ This guys knows what is doing!

That is the exact combination I would go for if I needed another bike. If you can spring for it the Kidernay looks like it might be a little tougher than the Rohloff, with the G510 definitely being more well built than the BBSHD.




"Approximately what top speed should one expect using the 48/52v, 750w Bafang BBS02 and a Sturmey 3sp hub? I’m not quite certain based on the article linked above - would hard acceleration from a stop break the hub in the easier gear?"

Do not regularly launch hard with any of the IGH's, every failure I can see, this is is the cause. While most gears can handle sustained, torque sudden loading (eg hard acceleration from a stop) is what kills them. If you had the 3 speed with the bafang default 42t from ring down to a 14t rear sprocket you would expect about 40-45km/h top speed.
 
Grautuefel said:
you can spring for it the Kidernay looks like it might be a little tougher than the Rohloff,

Until the shifter leaks.

Cables don't leak.
 
Grautuefel said:
"Approximately what top speed should one expect using the 48/52v, 750w Bafang BBS02 and a Sturmey 3sp hub? I’m not quite certain based on the article linked above - would hard acceleration from a stop break the hub in the easier gear?"

Do not regularly launch hard with any of the IGH's, every failure I can see, this is is the cause. While most gears can handle sustained, torque sudden loading (eg hard acceleration from a stop) is what kills them. If you had the 3 speed with the bafang default 42t from ring down to a 14t rear sprocket you would expect about 40-45km/h top speed.
With a 20 inch wheel or a 29 inch wheel.
I would expect it would make some difference.

FYI: I posted a similar question that got zero response.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114054
 
Triketech said:
Chalo said:
Cables don't leak.

I can tell you've never owned a British Leyland product.

Ah, true. Don't Lucas electrics also leak?
 
Chalo said:
Ah, true. Don't Lucas electrics also leak?


Yeah, but replacement smoke is cheap

On a more serious note, do the kindernays really leak? Or is chalo being pessamistic. Because I got frustrated constantly adjusting the cable brakes on mine I replaced them with shimano hydraulics and have never looked back. Essentially maintenance free and always have the right pressure and grab.
 
Grautuefel said:
On a more serious note, do the kindernays really leak? Or is chalo being pessamistic. Because I got frustrated constantly adjusting the cable brakes on mine I replaced them with shimano hydraulics and have never looked back. Essentially maintenance free and always have the right pressure and grab.

I see a lot more hydraulic brakes that don't work right than ones that do. I assume a hydraulic shifter would see less pressure less often than a brake, and might leak less for that reason. Still it seems like it offers extra complication and points of failure for no benefit whatsoever.
 
Grautuefel said:
On a more serious note, do the kindernays really leak?


It isn't always about whether a fluid-based control system always leaks, or even tends to--but rather that it could, and when it does, it's typically not something you can fix roadside--whereas cable control systems are relatively easy to fix with either a replacement cable or with a "hack", to at least get partial functionality back. ;)

Cables have their issues (sticking, wear/friction/stretch, etc), of course.

Use whichever system works for your application--but always know the disadvantages and potential problems of it so you can be prepared. :)
 
I have been contemplating going to IGH on my mid-drive trike. The units that would seem to be reliable enough include the Kindernay, of course Rohloff, and possible NuVinci/Enviolo or Alfine. My concern around shifting is maybe less about cable vs. hydraulic, but rather on relative simplicity. It seems some IGH hubs require two cables, and generally proprietary shifters.

I do think the Alfine 8 is a single cable shifter, and there are third-party simple shifters, include bar-ends, which I prefer, that can shift the unit. This would also allow me to use a shift sensor on the cable. Price seems good too - reliability may be a bit of a question mark.
 
Chalo said:
Ah, true. Don't Lucas electrics also leak?

I had a 73 Triumph GT6+ in the mid 70's. Smiths Gauges. Cable Tach.
After about 50 miles the cable would begin dripping hot oil at a rate of about an ounce a minute.
The drops would fall in a rather sensitive area. Sure got your attention.

The previous owner could never get it fixed for more than a few months at a time when the cable sheathing would burst.
 
ccihon said:
It seems some IGH hubs require two cables, and generally proprietary shifters.

This would also allow me to use a shift sensor on the cable.

Yes and no, generally one cable doubled back, in either case putting a shift sensor on the cable along the top tubeworks well enough. Honestly I'm not sure how useful the sensor is, but I'm more a pathway user than WOT up/down offroad tracks. The Nuvinci (enviolo) N171 is one heavy SOB, with an equally heavy shift (at one point I had visegrips locked to the barrel to help), but I've read people running tens of kw through them.
 
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