Courier ebike project advice

Neowise

10 mW
Joined
Nov 25, 2021
Messages
26
Hi, I want to start by thanking all of you for making this forum a endless resource. you have been of great help in my project and I can't thank you enough. Although I have only made a account now I have been reading your posts for many hours until now. You have been of great help in my project and I can't thank you enough.
I am an electric noob, apart from welding steel I don't know much about the technology and your building blogs helped me make a better idea about what I want to make.

Long story short I started my custom ebike project 1.5 years ago with the aim of building a one off ebike inspired by the boardtrackers of the 1920's. The first build was the most impractical bike I've ever ridden. But it looked interesting and the mxus hub motor had plenty of power to make me want to build a better one. I was hooked!
11272021.jpg

My second attempt was better, a electric boardtracker that was fun to drive, stable at speed and nimble enough to have fun in the city traffic. The mid aluminum box houses a 17.4 Ah 48v battery, the controller and some spare parts and tools in case I need them. It also has enough space for my laptop or 6-8 beers :lol:
11272021 2.jpg
11272021 3.jpg

This brings me to the present moment: for my third & fourth ebikes I want to upgrade the practicality of my design. I want to design and build the ultimate city courier ebikes and would love to hear your advice on what makes a good courier bike. The two bikes will have similar designs: same frame design, same mid battery and spare parts box, same racks, same wheels. One will have the tsdz2 motor with a rear derailleur and one with a shimano e6100 motor and shimano nexus geared hub.
11112021.jpg

My plan is to use the two bikes for delivery jobs (one for me and one for a friend of mine) so any advice would be appreciated, especially from people who work as couriers: what make the job easier (what should I carry with me)? what makes a good courier bike(geometry, confort, speed)? what rack is better (front/rear)? what tyres/brakes/parts work best? how to increase the range of the bike (what batteries, what tyres)?
 
Courriers in the city here, are doing much better with plain pedal bikes. They are riding too much mileage for any ebike, and their average delivery time is often faster too. Courrier is a job for young, fit, agressive riders. I ride fast ebikes, yet not crazy enough to follow them.

If you plan food delivery, it is another story. Scooters are best for this purpose. Lots of them have room for 72v 40A li battery capacity, and the ideal place to fit the standard food delivery box on the rear. Cargo ebikes are not bad either, some of them at least. Fast charging is a must, for the daily mileage is way too much for a single charge.
 
In the 50's and 60's the streets of New York had hundreds of push cart bikes, very big box up front could fit a couple of bodies at least.

I wonder why that traditional design hasn't been adapted for electric?
 
john61ct said:
In the 50's and 60's the streets of New York had hundreds of push cart bikes, very big box up front could fit a couple of bodies at least.

I wonder why that traditional design hasn't been adapted for electric?

It has. Some cargo bikes of all type are available, and there are some custom builds on ES. They are more suitable for groceries IMO. We have many cargo bikes around here, mostly family bikes. There are many e-trike parcel delivery ‘trucks’ too, UPS have some for a few year, and other parcel delivery services recently. They are about 12ft almost full bodied, open only by rider’s sides.
 
I assume the box shape over the front wheel in the drawing is cargo on a rack?

Can you see well enough around that to see your path and whatever your front wheel is about to go over? I ask because I do cargo hauling and commuting in the city, and there's often a lot of stuff to take out a wheel or tire, or cause a crash that you may really want to have a clear line-of-sight for. ;)

Also, a tip: Since you are extending the visual design line from the frame to the rack anyway, actually extend the frame itself out to make the rack supports. Don't use the fork as the rack mount. This will eliminate any problems of steering response due to load mass, and if you end up having to use a suspension fork due to road conditions/etc., then the load will be fully suspended as well. There are a number of existing cargo bikes with racks in front (and rear) that cantilever from the frame rather than mount to a fork if you need any examples.


Some general handling concerns based on a long long time of cargo hauling with various bike configurations, most of them custom-built.

What specific types of items are you expecting to courier around? And what kinds of weight?

If they are liquids, I recommend putting those in rear panniers, so weight is around the axle. Sloshing will affect handling less. A lot less than anywhere on the front.

If they are solids and well-secured, a rack on either end works ok, but the higher up it is the more it may affect handling, vs your own personal mass.

Anything you can stick in panniers (front or rear) will let the bike handle better, even if the load is lopsided, or even if it's all on one side.

If the load in front is centered on the line of the fork, then the closer it is to the fork (side or front) the less it affects steering response.



What speeds do you expect to be travelling at? And on what road conditions? This may make a difference to whether you want (or need) suspension, especially depending on the specific cargo you're carrying (for instance, soda or other carbonated liquids don't like vibrations and shaking, a fair number of specific-orientation-packaging (this side up only types) really do mean that, and they may not handle bumps very well either, especially for some food items (cakes, pies, pizza, etc)).
 
If you're intending to carry any large items, it may be more practical to use a trailer or a sidecar, if you don't want to build a trike. The trailer or sidecar could be removed whenever you aren't carrying large enough items to worry about it. A trike you're stuck with it's size, generally (there are options to deal with some of this but make the build more complex), but is more "instantly" versatile for large/bulky load-carrying vs many bike designs.


A trike was my eventual solution, since it carries an entire mounded-up cart of groceries, including the cart's bottom rack, plus space on top to carry other bulky items from a second cart...or it can carry a St Bernard. ;) ). The SB Cruiser trike itself has evolved over time, and can also pull a hefty load in a trailer (piano, few hundred pounds of dog food (or dogs), etc. But it isn't narrow enough to fit thru a typical house door, for instance (it did start out narrower), and it is also very long (over 11 feet), and has a number of other disadvantages vs a regular bike, despite it's generally being better suited to my needs these days.

Before that I used a semirecumbent longbike with large rear side panniers (taht could also carry bulk items across the top of them). CrazyBike2 was pretty useful, but I did have to use a trailer to carry a full grocery load, or one of the dogs. It was closer to a regular bike regarding width and ability to fit on paths/thru doors/etc., but was still very long.

Before that, I used various styles of "regular bikes" with assorted types of racks and panniers and trailers, to varying degrees of success. The best ones used low-mounted panniers front and / or rear, along with racks over the wheels. I never built a permanent version of the front-rack-extended-from-the-frame type, because I'd already built CB2 by the time I discovered that method and didn't generally need it, but would do it now if I were to make a regular bike again (for someone else, as I've passed beyond the ability to ride those now).

Some of the bikes are documented here on ES, like DayGlo Avenger, Fusin Test Bike, etc. Some of them were very short lived experiments over time that never got even pictures, and most stuff was before I started on ES, before I added motors.
 
first of all, congrats on the previous builds. Really good looking, very capable bikes. But a delivery guy will not want the discomfort of a race frame, or the lack of fenders, chain guard, etc.

In my opinion, a delivery rider would love my longtail. Just a tiny bit of welding turned a 100 buck schwinn cruiser into an incredibly capable cargo bike. One of the biggest improvements is the disc brakes, yet easy as pie for a novice welder to do. Its not rear heavy, because longtails carry the riders weight farther forward than normal bikes. 6-1-2015  Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG

More mods could carry the battery up front, but just lengthening it made it so capable to carry 2kw or more worth of battery in the bags. The deck can be adapted to any size box you need. Mine left bare to carry a take and bake pizza. Or trailer hitch, mine rigged for a bob trailer.

For those guys delivering the food and such, you do need to keep it simple pimple, providing them with a 1000 buck longtail frame for much closer to 300 bucks. The base bike I chose already had a welded on rear rack, making
legthening it easy. If you are thinking of selling bikes, you could whack out something similar easy peasy.

But don't make it too long. This bike only a foot longer, not two feet. 8 or 9 inches can be perfect.
 
Thank you all for your responses! thanks for helping me understand a city courier mindset in new ways!
 
Courier to me describes cross-town paper/documents/plans delivery, usually not very heavy or bulky. Most courier delivery bikers I've known use a sling-over-the-shoulder messenger style pack. Don't see them as much anymore. Electronic PDF signing, E-Documents, E-Sign, etc. seem to have reduced the need?

Food delivery bikers in NYC seem to have standardized on the Arrow ebike, maybe or maybe not for good reasons. Apparently they have reached a critical mass for good coverage infrastructure of local shops that cater to them, good stock of spares, and often while-you-wait service.

https://www.curbed.com/article/nyc-delivery-workers.html

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89258

https://www.roadbikerider.com/nyc-arrow-e-bike-brand/

As you can see, it's a slightly stretched frame similar to what dogman dan recommends above.

Lower end components, entry level front suspension fork, comfort stem, rack, fenders, basic lights, etc. Not inherently reliable as delivered, but then there's that ubiquitous service shop coverage in the city to take their money and keep 'em rolling.
 
Back in the 1980s and '90s when NYC messengers has pretty much standardized on fixed gear track bikes and shoulder bags, DC messengers mostly settled on MTBs with big front baskets. Pizza bikes have most traditionally been cycle trucks with a frame mounted front box.

Here in Austin lately, food and grocery delivery riders mostly use annihilated garbage bikes and huge rectangular backpacks. I see a few e-bike riders doing that gig.
 
MadRhino said:
Courriers in the city here, are doing much better with plain pedal bikes. They are riding too much mileage for any ebike, and their average delivery time is often faster too. Courrier is a job for young, fit, agressive riders. I ride fast ebikes, yet not crazy enough to follow them.

If you plan food delivery, it is another story. Scooters are best for this purpose. Lots of them have room for 72v 40A li battery capacity, and the ideal place to fit the standard food delivery box on the rear. Cargo ebikes are not bad either, some of them at least. Fast charging is a must, for the daily mileage is way too much for a single charge.
I understand you point of view, I am planning on delivering food ordered trough apps such as glovo, food panda and similar, pic for reference:
Glovo.jpg

In my city most of the Glovo couriers are riding city/touring ebikes with mid motors and I assumed that is because the city is full of hills and a mid drive helps a lot. Also ebikes are the most simple and legal way of riding something electrically assisted in my country. I also thought of buiding a delivery scooter, maybe something like a electric honda cub with bmx wheels and a rack and a 4 speed motor like this:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3-Wheel-Electric-Motorcycle-Kit-Hub_62449346744.html?spm=a2700.wholesale.0.0.231b4804crI2db
But that would require a drivers licence and a big, expensive battery :(

I've seen NY bicycle couriers videos and yes they are crazy, haw much milage do they cover in a day?
 
john61ct said:
In the 50's and 60's the streets of New York had hundreds of push cart bikes, very big box up front could fit a couple of bodies at least.

I wonder why that traditional design hasn't been adapted for electric?

Something like these but with bigger boxes?
https://bicicletapegas.ro/mini-cargo-verde-smarald?gclid=Cj0KCQiAkZKNBhDiARIsAPsk0Wixl3TWnNcp4rniEn2ktLbwaXhbFKlYujDb6PALywSK6xXmBIRqgxEaAmzLEALw_wcB
it would be awesome with a small fridge with beer in the front or ones for selling hot dogs
 
No the boxes were metal, fully covered and lockable top,

a yard across, at least that high and 4-5' long.

Some ice cream vending trikes look similar but lower profile.
 
Neowise said:
I am planning on delivering food ordered trough apps such as glovo, food panda and similar, pic for reference:

I would say that unless you have perfect roads you will definitely want something with suspension if the items are carried on the bike itself. If they're in a backpack, you can stand on the pedals for bumps to keep food from being messed up during delivery, but otherwise you may need some other way to keep that from happening. (it sucks to get food that's been tossed around and mixed up or otherwise damaged from the delivery).

Try it out on your existing bike first, with your own food/etc in typical delivery containers, and see what happens to it under the worst riding condtions you know you'll encounter, at the fastest speed you need to go to deliver within the proper window of time. ;)

(keep in mind that if it's like some of the delivery things here, you may get a notice to pickup an order, accept it, then go there after your timer has started, then find they dont' have it ready or they've messed it up, etc., and you have to wait there for it for a significant amount of time, meanign you have to ride a lot faster to try to get it delivered within whatever window of time your service limits you to. If you miss the window, or the food is messed up, you may not get much of a tip, if any, and if ti's like some (all?) services here, that tip might be a large percentage of what you get paid for doing it.)

If you're also carrying drinks, especially sodas in cups, that increases the problem.

a big, expensive battery :(

Unless your battery is swappable, you may need that for your ebike to do this stuff. The faster you go the more power it takes, and farther you go, the same. The more stops and starts, same.

If you need to do stuff that's far enough away from each other, you may be zigzagging all over the city (or at least your area of it) that might take so much energy you run out of battery after only a few of them. Stopping to recharge is an option, but if doing that will lose you enough chances at deliveries (and money), it could be worth having a spare battery or two to swap out quickly, assuming that going to pick that up won't take more time than recharging.
 
amberwolf said:
I assume the box shape over the front wheel in the drawing is cargo on a rack?

Can you see well enough around that to see your path and whatever your front wheel is about to go over? I ask because I do cargo hauling and commuting in the city, and there's often a lot of stuff to take out a wheel or tire, or cause a crash that you may really want to have a clear line-of-sight for. ;)

Also, a tip: Since you are extending the visual design line from the frame to the rack anyway, actually extend the frame itself out to make the rack supports. Don't use the fork as the rack mount. This will eliminate any problems of steering response due to load mass, and if you end up having to use a suspension fork due to road conditions/etc., then the load will be fully suspended as well. There are a number of existing cargo bikes with racks in front (and rear) that cantilever from the frame rather than mount to a fork if you need any examples.


Some general handling concerns based on a long long time of cargo hauling with various bike configurations, most of them custom-built.

What specific types of items are you expecting to courier around? And what kinds of weight?

If they are liquids, I recommend putting those in rear panniers, so weight is around the axle. Sloshing will affect handling less. A lot less than anywhere on the front.

If they are solids and well-secured, a rack on either end works ok, but the higher up it is the more it may affect handling, vs your own personal mass.

Anything you can stick in panniers (front or rear) will let the bike handle better, even if the load is lopsided, or even if it's all on one side.

If the load in front is centered on the line of the fork, then the closer it is to the fork (side or front) the less it affects steering response.



What speeds do you expect to be travelling at? And on what road conditions? This may make a difference to whether you want (or need) suspension, especially depending on the specific cargo you're carrying (for instance, soda or other carbonated liquids don't like vibrations and shaking, a fair number of specific-orientation-packaging (this side up only types) really do mean that, and they may not handle bumps very well either, especially for some food items (cakes, pies, pizza, etc)).

Thankyou for your comment, your insights are very helpful!!

Yes the box shape in the front is cargo. Your explanation for extending the frame and integrating the front rack makes a lot of sense and I will be trying it. One example I found was the Cake Osa scooter if I understand this corectly. I was also thinking of using a smaller front wheel (26 or 24 inch front and 28 in the rear) so I can position the weight al low as possible. I know side panniers would help with that but I read some studies that say the most efficient way of carrying stuff on a bike is in the middle (because of aerodynamics). Basically I hope keeping things aero would help me have a bigger range.

I plan on carrying mostly a glovo backpack/box (50cm cube) under 20kg, with foods/sodas/beers on paved city roads.
https://glovostore.com/RO/ro/produs/rucsac-extensibil-glovo-rpet-livrare-termica-GLOVOBACKP10002001

I can think that changing tires mid delivery is a pain, would a center stand help in that case or is it easier to unload and change tires. Also when parking is a center stand better or is it unnecessary weight?
 
Neowise said:
Yes the box shape in the front is cargo. Your explanation for extending the frame and integrating the front rack makes a lot of sense and I will be trying it. One example I found was the Cake Osa scooter if I understand this corectly.
Something like that, though there are many more elegant ways of doing it. You could literally do it like your design drawing but with the support being an extension of your "top tube", etc. If you look up Mixte frame design where the outer pair of tubes go on either side of the seatpost, it oculd be done something like that to extend past the headtube, or a central tube could be welded directly to the front of the headtube, or both.


I was also thinking of using a smaller front wheel (26 or 24 inch front and 28 in the rear) so I can position the weight al low as possible.
I'd keep the same size for several reasons. First is that a larger diameter tire rolls better over problems than a smaller one. If you only need one tire and tube size, it's easier to carry spares and cheaper to order them if you need to get a lot of them.



I know side panniers would help with that but I read some studies that say the most efficient way of carrying stuff on a bike is in the middle (because of aerodynamics). Basically I hope keeping things aero would help me have a bigger range.

AFAIK it is more about total cross-section at the front and how everything flows into everything else. With an upright riding position (rather than a tucked-in crouching rider with drop bars) and regular clothing (vs smooth non-flapping stuff) you yourself will make so much drag it'll likely make much more difference than anything else on the bike. :)

Even if it is actually true, unless you're going 25-30mph+ (probably a lot faster) it isn't going to make all that much difference.


FWIW, my CrazyBike2 is way more aero than my SB Cruiser trike. About 1/3 the power usage, for otherwise the same application/usage.

CB2's got giant pannier boxes on the rear (not in front because I never got that far with that design), while the SBC has a giant box on the back and a canopy over the top (the same canopy on CB2 added signifcant drag as well, but the box on SBC is worse).

Additionally, SBC is a higher and more upright riding position than CB2, which is lower and more laid back (not by much, but still).

The back of each one is basically a huge flat space (like the back of an upright rider) that creates a lot of drag, but even if I open the front of the trike and the back of it is an open cage door, or even without the box, it's still almost as draggy.

If you want more aero, just don't use boxy shapes, and keep your total area that the air hits low. There's plenty of sites that talk about how to do this in many ways, especially the HPV sites, enclosed recumbents, etc. I think WISIL probably has good info, but cant' recall.


The big thing that you have to decide is if handling and/or ride quality are more important than aero...and if you're not going fast, aero isn't all that important. It *will* make a difference...but the speed you go makes a difference as to how much difference aero makes. :)


I can think that changing tires mid delivery is a pain, would a center stand help in that case or is it easier to unload and change tires. Also when parking is a center stand better or is it unnecessary weight?
Center stands make it a lot easier to deal with stuff on racks, panniers, etc. A side stand or anything that doesnt' keep the bike completely upright makes cargo loading and unloading difficult at best, and the higher up the cargo is, the more likely it is to just fall over when you're not riding it, especially if you take something off that unbalances everything. I think there are some examples of this problem in my DayGlo Avenger and Fusin Test Bike threads. Not sure if the pics are still there, lots of those lost over the years with server moves and lack of forum backups.


Changing tires...you're probably going to end up flipping the bike upside down to rest on saddle and handlebars to be able to get teh wheels on and off easily and to deal with motor axle mounting hardware, wiring, etc, so it doesn't much matter what stand you use.

You can change tires other ways too, but unless your stand will hold the bike up without a wheel in it on whichever end, and keep it in that position while you manhandle the wheel into position and get it bolted back on, no stand is really going to do what you want.
 
amberwolf said:
If you're intending to carry any large items, it may be more practical to use a trailer or a sidecar, if you don't want to build a trike. The trailer or sidecar could be removed whenever you aren't carrying large enough items to worry about it. A trike you're stuck with it's size, generally (there are options to deal with some of this but make the build more complex), but is more "instantly" versatile for large/bulky load-carrying vs many bike designs.


A trike was my eventual solution, since it carries an entire mounded-up cart of groceries, including the cart's bottom rack, plus space on top to carry other bulky items from a second cart...or it can carry a St Bernard. ;) ). The SB Cruiser trike itself has evolved over time, and can also pull a hefty load in a trailer (piano, few hundred pounds of dog food (or dogs), etc. But it isn't narrow enough to fit thru a typical house door, for instance (it did start out narrower), and it is also very long (over 11 feet), and has a number of other disadvantages vs a regular bike, despite it's generally being better suited to my needs these days.

Before that I used a semirecumbent longbike with large rear side panniers (taht could also carry bulk items across the top of them). CrazyBike2 was pretty useful, but I did have to use a trailer to carry a full grocery load, or one of the dogs. It was closer to a regular bike regarding width and ability to fit on paths/thru doors/etc., but was still very long.

Before that, I used various styles of "regular bikes" with assorted types of racks and panniers and trailers, to varying degrees of success. The best ones used low-mounted panniers front and / or rear, along with racks over the wheels. I never built a permanent version of the front-rack-extended-from-the-frame type, because I'd already built CB2 by the time I discovered that method and didn't generally need it, but would do it now if I were to make a regular bike again (for someone else, as I've passed beyond the ability to ride those now).

Some of the bikes are documented here on ES, like DayGlo Avenger, Fusin Test Bike, etc. Some of them were very short lived experiments over time that never got even pictures, and most stuff was before I started on ES, before I added motors.

WOW!!!! The SB Cruiser is awesome and I am sure the dogs love it! Your build blog is ace! I however want something smaller and more suited for city traffic. I have a good tool for carrying the large stuff: a old volvo wagon with a roof rack :D
 
Re batteries, the NYC delivery bike riders surely have some kind of place they stash batteries under charge. Definitely can't be a built in battery. To get through a long day, you'd need about 4 kw of batteries.

On the longtail I showed, I carried 2 kw in the panniers, using RC lipos. I showed you that one, thinking you might be building bikes for delivery people. They of course, need a low entry price, and you need a quick build to make any profit off em.

If building for yourself, consider something like this. Its main feature was two battery pockets built fore and aft of the seat post. Only the seat post, crank, bottom bar, and headset remained of the original bike. Something similar could be made to have rear suspension, so the panniers if used, and back rack get less vibration to help with the food. You could even build in a rack to hold 4 drinks securely. Box, empty standard cups, then spray foam the empty space.

Carrying the stuff vibration free on this bike would be best done by putting the battery in the back, and the sandwiches in the pockets at the seat post. Longtails have the wheels go up and down on the bumps, but the saddle just rocks gently.

Decent aero by getting rid of the panniers is a good idea, but riding in a tuck all day is not. Finished cargo mixte..jpg
 
Also trikes and recumbents are awesome, one friend used a home made recumbent trike for delivery jobs a couple of years back and he was crazy fast! He also was a young, fit, agressive rider and I am not aiming at that kind of speed, a bit too scary for my taste to say so.
 
amberwolf said:
Neowise said:
Yes the box shape in the front is cargo. Your explanation for extending the frame and integrating the front rack makes a lot of sense and I will be trying it. One example I found was the Cake Osa scooter if I understand this corectly.
Something like that, though there are many more elegant ways of doing it. You could literally do it like your design drawing but with the support being an extension of your "top tube", etc. If you look up Mixte frame design where the outer pair of tubes go on either side of the seatpost, it oculd be done something like that to extend past the headtube, or a central tube could be welded directly to the front of the headtube, or both.


I was also thinking of using a smaller front wheel (26 or 24 inch front and 28 in the rear) so I can position the weight al low as possible.
I'd keep the same size for several reasons. First is that a larger diameter tire rolls better over problems than a smaller one. If you only need one tire and tube size, it's easier to carry spares and cheaper to order them if you need to get a lot of them.



I know side panniers would help with that but I read some studies that say the most efficient way of carrying stuff on a bike is in the middle (because of aerodynamics). Basically I hope keeping things aero would help me have a bigger range.

AFAIK it is more about total cross-section at the front and how everything flows into everything else. With an upright riding position (rather than a tucked-in crouching rider with drop bars) and regular clothing (vs smooth non-flapping stuff) you yourself will make so much drag it'll likely make much more difference than anything else on the bike. :)

Even if it is actually true, unless you're going 25-30mph+ (probably a lot faster) it isn't going to make all that much difference.


FWIW, my CrazyBike2 is way more aero than my SB Cruiser trike. About 1/3 the power usage, for otherwise the same application/usage.

CB2's got giant pannier boxes on the rear (not in front because I never got that far with that design), while the SBC has a giant box on the back and a canopy over the top (the same canopy on CB2 added signifcant drag as well, but the box on SBC is worse).

Additionally, SBC is a higher and more upright riding position than CB2, which is lower and more laid back (not by much, but still).

The back of each one is basically a huge flat space (like the back of an upright rider) that creates a lot of drag, but even if I open the front of the trike and the back of it is an open cage door, or even without the box, it's still almost as draggy.

If you want more aero, just don't use boxy shapes, and keep your total area that the air hits low. There's plenty of sites that talk about how to do this in many ways, especially the HPV sites, enclosed recumbents, etc. I think WISIL probably has good info, but cant' recall.


The big thing that you have to decide is if handling and/or ride quality are more important than aero...and if you're not going fast, aero isn't all that important. It *will* make a difference...but the speed you go makes a difference as to how much difference aero makes. :)


I can think that changing tires mid delivery is a pain, would a center stand help in that case or is it easier to unload and change tires. Also when parking is a center stand better or is it unnecessary weight?
Center stands make it a lot easier to deal with stuff on racks, panniers, etc. A side stand or anything that doesnt' keep the bike completely upright makes cargo loading and unloading difficult at best, and the higher up the cargo is, the more likely it is to just fall over when you're not riding it, especially if you take something off that unbalances everything. I think there are some examples of this problem in my DayGlo Avenger and Fusin Test Bike threads. Not sure if the pics are still there, lots of those lost over the years with server moves and lack of forum backups.


Changing tires...you're probably going to end up flipping the bike upside down to rest on saddle and handlebars to be able to get teh wheels on and off easily and to deal with motor axle mounting hardware, wiring, etc, so it doesn't much matter what stand you use.

You can change tires other ways too, but unless your stand will hold the bike up without a wheel in it on whichever end, and keep it in that position while you manhandle the wheel into position and get it bolted back on, no stand is really going to do what you want.

I think I will try to extend the frame with front and rear racks and test witch one is better...
Having the box in front I think helps with protection against wind, maybe a bit of rain but it makes visibility worst. May help aero if I position it at 45 degrees?
Having the box in the rear helps with stability and carrying liquids and gives good visibility
 
I think 30-35 kph would be my target speed, not much more above the 25kph speed limit for ebikes, I maybe would try chiptuning the shimano to see haw that affect its range but I want a reasonable compromise between a good range and speed, and keeping the weight as low as possible
 
dogman dan said:
first of all, congrats on the previous builds. Really good looking, very capable bikes. But a delivery guy will not want the discomfort of a race frame, or the lack of fenders, chain guard, etc.

In my opinion, a delivery rider would love my longtail. Just a tiny bit of welding turned a 100 buck schwinn cruiser into an incredibly capable cargo bike. One of the biggest improvements is the disc brakes, yet easy as pie for a novice welder to do. Its not rear heavy, because longtails carry the riders weight farther forward than normal bikes. 6-1-2015 Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG

More mods could carry the battery up front, but just lengthening it made it so capable to carry 2kw or more worth of battery in the bags. The deck can be adapted to any size box you need. Mine left bare to carry a take and bake pizza. Or trailer hitch, mine rigged for a bob trailer.

For those guys delivering the food and such, you do need to keep it simple pimple, providing them with a 1000 buck longtail frame for much closer to 300 bucks. The base bike I chose already had a welded on rear rack, making
legthening it easy. If you are thinking of selling bikes, you could whack out something similar easy peasy.

But don't make it too long. This bike only a foot longer, not two feet. 8 or 9 inches can be perfect.

Thanks :D
I would certainly have fenders, chain guard on the courier bike, its a must when you have to ride it everyday.

Love your simple longtail Schwinn! It looks very elegant for a longtail bike.

My personal problem with the longtail design and also with the first bike I build is that I live in a apartment building and I would prefer using the elevator to get the bike to and from the ground level. This constrains the overall lenght of the bike to under 2 meters.
 
99t4 said:
Courier to me describes cross-town paper/documents/plans delivery, usually not very heavy or bulky. Most courier delivery bikers I've known use a sling-over-the-shoulder messenger style pack. Don't see them as much anymore. Electronic PDF signing, E-Documents, E-Sign, etc. seem to have reduced the need?

Food delivery bikers in NYC seem to have standardized on the Arrow ebike, maybe or maybe not for good reasons. Apparently they have reached a critical mass for good coverage infrastructure of local shops that cater to them, good stock of spares, and often while-you-wait service.

https://www.curbed.com/article/nyc-delivery-workers.html

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89258

https://www.roadbikerider.com/nyc-arrow-e-bike-brand/


As you can see, it's a slightly stretched frame similar to what dogman dan recommends above.

Lower end components, entry level front suspension fork, comfort stem, rack, fenders, basic lights, etc. Not inherently reliable as delivered, but then there's that ubiquitous service shop coverage in the city to take their money and keep 'em rolling.

Gold info! Thanks a lot, love the simplicity of the Arrow bike, and I think it would work ok with a TSDZ2 mid motor and gears and be cheap too. Good read too! thankyou :D
 
99t4 said:
Courier to me describes cross-town paper/documents/plans delivery, usually not very heavy or bulky. Most courier delivery bikers I've known use a sling-over-the-shoulder messenger style pack. Don't see them as much anymore. Electronic PDF signing, E-Documents, E-Sign, etc. seem to have reduced the need?

Food delivery bikers in NYC seem to have standardized on the Arrow ebike, maybe or maybe not for good reasons. Apparently they have reached a critical mass for good coverage infrastructure of local shops that cater to them, good stock of spares, and often while-you-wait service.

https://www.curbed.com/article/nyc-delivery-workers.html

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89258

https://www.roadbikerider.com/nyc-arrow-e-bike-brand/

As you can see, it's a slightly stretched frame similar to what dogman dan recommends above.

Lower end components, entry level front suspension fork, comfort stem, rack, fenders, basic lights, etc. Not inherently reliable as delivered, but then there's that ubiquitous service shop coverage in the city to take their money and keep 'em rolling.

Found this in the Arrow 7 topic:

I love almost everything about these bikes...
- Comes stock with crazy powerfull hydrolic mineral oil piston-caliper disk brakes.
- The frame is a tank. I feel it was designed for delivery guy who spend their days rolling in New York Manhattan's pothole-full streets.
- Intergrated torque arms recessed into the frame.
- Comes stock with mudgards,
- Comes stock with front an rear light and switch (all wired to the ebike battery)
- Comes stock with designated and well placed spot for a massive hard case and lockable battery (now that's range!)
- Comes stock very massive and solid rear rack.
- Comes stock with a V-shaped double leg stand (just like the ones on motorcycles)
- Comes stock with a front fork suspension.
- Comes stock with a PAS sensor
- Comes stock with a controller box at or just in the rear of the bottom brack. So that protects the controller and makes the bike look more stealthy.
- There a key on the seat. When turned, the seat tilts forward a 90° angle and battery can be removed (provided you have the key to remove the battery with is groove frond the metal rail that guides it.
- Comes stock with protection rubber protection pads on downtube and horizontal tube to protect frame's paint from the heavyness ot the fat kryptonite chains we use her in NYC.
- I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but I love these bikees (even the low power version I have)... They're ready right of the bat.

sound like a pretty good description of what I need! Just with a mid drive motor because I have a lot of hills in my town; under 2m lenght; and with built in front and rear racks
 
Neowise said:
- The frame is a tank. I feel it was designed for delivery guy who spend their days rolling in New York Manhattan's pothole-full streets.
old school steel, chromoly?

 
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