How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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SafeDiscDancing   10 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 22 2022 2:23pm

Civilization means we must return to Natural Law as our guide.

Do No Harm.

The tyranny always wants more and more and more while we are restricted to less and less.

Better to have a great awakening than keep giving away our freedom.

The answer is not more surrender of control.

So no more automatic crap... no. Bad idea.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 22 2022 2:41pm

calab wrote:
Jan 22 2022 2:13pm
Protected lane makes you sound like its a 4' high concrete barrier the entire length of the lane with maybe a foot or two of spacing between each segment to help parkers or jaywalkers get to the sidewalk. Protected lane is more like a recycled 2" high parking curb spaced out if your so lucky or more likely lame ass flexible bendable pilons
Not always. Some protected lanes use parked cars as the barrier.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 22 2022 2:57pm

:lol: So those parked cars are permanently in place 24/7?
That first pic doesnt have anything protecting it but a painted line on the road next to the marked parking stalls and still the guy rides where a parked cars door can snag him and he is riding on the wrong side of the dual direction lane which has no markings to say so, markings like a yellow line of some sort between the end of the painted hash marks indicating closed are for doors to swing open and the curb which is in the third picture.

:lol: Even funnier is the same things I said about the first pic is the same thing about the last pic.

Maybe busier centers should be squeezed harder with traffic flow and have more and wider protected lanes :thumb:

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 22 2022 3:04pm

calab wrote:
Jan 22 2022 2:57pm
:lol: So those parked cars are permanently in place 24/7?
That first pic doesnt have anything protecting it but a painted line on the road next to the marked parking stalls and still the guy rides where a parked cars door can snag him and he is riding on the wrong side of the dual direction lane which has no markings to say so, markings like a yellow line of some sort between the end of the painted hash marks indicating closed are for doors to swing open and the curb which is in the third picture.

:lol: Even funnier is the same things I said about the first pic is the same thing about the last pic.

Maybe busier centers should be squeezed harder with traffic flow and have more and wider protected lanes :thumb:
If you look in the first and last picture there are some lines on the ground for clearance between parked cars and cyclists. I personally wouldn't ride far left past those lines myself. It looks like the cyclists in the picture aren't either except for one cyclist in the last picture who is slightly over the line but there isn't a car parked near him either.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by 99t4 » Jan 22 2022 3:42pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 22 2022 2:41pm
Not always. Some protected lanes use parked cars as the barrier.
Might look appealing to you but in reality is different. They have implemented this a lot in my area. I won't ride in most of them because:
1. Vehicles park either partly or fully (delivery vehicles, moving trucks, post office, disabled vehicles, etc.) in the bike lane. You can see some vehicles partly in the bike lane in the distance in that first photo.
2. People running back and forth from the curb to their car without looking. Baby strollers, groceries, dogs, etc. sitting in the bike lane.
3. Street sweeper can't clean the bike lane. It accumulates glass, trash, piles of slick leaves in the fall, all hazards.
4. Reduced sightlines for viewing cross-traffic.
5. Road crown angle can be more acute that close to the curb. Too easy to lose traction there on an off-camber curve.

I'm not complaining; just describing the realities of the implementation.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 22 2022 4:05pm

99t4 wrote:
Jan 22 2022 3:42pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 22 2022 2:41pm
Not always. Some protected lanes use parked cars as the barrier.
Might look appealing to you but in reality is different. They have implemented this a lot in my area. I won't ride in most of them because:
1. Vehicles park either partly or fully (delivery vehicles, moving trucks, post office, disabled vehicles, etc.) in the bike lane. You can see some vehicles partly in the bike lane in the distance in that first photo.
2. People running back and forth from the curb to their car without looking. Baby strollers, groceries, dogs, etc. sitting in the bike lane.
3. Street sweeper can't clean the bike lane. It accumulates glass, trash, piles of slick leaves in the fall, all hazards.
4. Reduced sightlines for viewing cross-traffic.
5. Road crown angle can be more acute that close to the curb. Too easy to lose traction there on an off-camber curve.

I'm not complaining; just describing the realities of the implementation.
Great points.

For the street sweeping they could ban parking at certain times to allow the class IV lane to be cleaned.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by 99t4 » Jan 22 2022 10:54pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 22 2022 4:05pm
For the street sweeping they could ban parking at certain times to allow the class IV lane to be cleaned.
LOL, Not around here! There would be a cager-fueled insurrection at the city council if that parking constraint was ordained.

Very insidious, this systemic mentality that "free" roads, parking, infrastructure for unrestricted personal automobile use must be maintained, expanded, and otherwise catered to above all other modes of transportation. It is the default option.

Even notice in your 4th image above, what are their first two selling points?

"NO LOSS OF PARKING SPACES"
"NO LOSS OF CAR LANES"

It's like there is a 2nd Amendment for unrestricted personal automobile usage rights or something. :(

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by MadRhino » Jan 24 2022 3:49pm

They are not going to change their habits for us. We need to share the streets with cars, and for that we have to be able to match their performance in the city environment. In too many places, ebiked are now perceived as a nuisance on both, bike lanes and streets. Bike lanes are used by a variety of slow people who are seeing ebikes as dangerous. That is why I slow down to their pace when I have to ride the bike lanes, and ride the streets with performance such as to never make cars frustrated behind me.

When you are not a nuisance to others, you are very unlikely to experience conflicts or harassment from the police.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 4:33pm

Car drivers need to be frustrated. That's how people are persuaded to make better choices that don't harm everyone.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by donn » Jan 24 2022 5:11pm

99t4 wrote:
Jan 22 2022 3:42pm
4. Reduced sightlines for viewing cross-traffic.
I'm with you on every point, but just to add to this one, the cross traffic also has this problem. So drivers who want to turn onto your protected-bike-lane-equipped arterial, need to roll out into the bicycle lane, to see who's coming. The drivers on the arterial who are turning onto the cross street, don't see bicycle traffic as well, because they're behind a parked car screen.

The National Institute for Transportation and Communities (NITC) put out an extensive report in 2014: "Lessons from the
Green Lanes: Evaluating Protected Bike Lanes in the U.S." The two parking lane protected lanes studied were very poor performers, but these lanes keep getting installed.

A month or so ago, I was cruising along on one of these "protected" lanes, through a commercial retail area, and just as I went past a delivery van I saw a handtruck come flying out of the door - right at my elbow. Missed me, but sure was hair-raising.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 24 2022 6:47pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 24 2022 3:49pm
They are not going to change their habits for us. We need to share the streets with cars, and for that we have to be able to match their performance in the city environment. In too many places, ebiked are now perceived as a nuisance on both, bike lanes and streets. Bike lanes are used by a variety of slow people who are seeing ebikes as dangerous. That is why I slow down to their pace when I have to ride the bike lanes, and ride the streets with performance such as to never make cars frustrated behind me.

When you are not a nuisance to others, you are very unlikely to experience conflicts or harassment from the police.
How much top speed should a moped be allowed to have?

As a point of reference, here is a top sprint performance (sampled back in 2017) by a pro cyclist on flat ground:

https://cycling.today/who-were-the-most ... s-of-2017/

"Velon tracked cyclists’ power data at 10 races in 2017, including a Grand Tour, two ‘Monument’ Classics and the inaugural Hammer Series event.

The top spot goes to Peter Sagan’s victory on stage five of the Tour de Suisse. Over an 18 second period he averaged 70.5km/h and 1220 Watts, reaching a top speed of 76.2km/h and a five second peak power output of 1417 Watts."

P.S. Here is the video of that finish where Peter Sagan hit a top speed of 76.2 km/h (He makes his move at 41 seconds into the video.):

https://youtu.be/t8wwaWs1nlI

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 7:22pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 6:47pm
How much top speed should a moped be allowed to have?
Up to the amount that makes it a motorcycle. Then you get a motorcycle tag and license.

In most places, that's 30 mph, which is okay by me.

There's no restriction, no matter the speed. There are only responsibilities to be met.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 24 2022 7:41pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 7:22pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 6:47pm
How much top speed should a moped be allowed to have?
Up to the amount that makes it a motorcycle. Then you get a motorcycle tag and license.

In most places, that's 30 mph, which is okay by me.
In British Columbia Canada, the law for max speed on a moped is 70 km/h (43.4 mph).

Is that too fast for the US?

Should US change the max speed for mopeds?

P.S. One thing to keep in mind is that Class 4 bike lanes are becoming increasingly popular in the US at the expense of not making Class 2 lanes (which can be used by mopeds and Class 3 ebikes). Unfortunately mopeds and Class 3 bicycles can't use Class 4 lanes. So what do you do? Do you increase allowable speed of mopeds and Class 3 ebikes so they do better on 35 mph and 45 mph roads? Or do you put a 20 mph or 25 mph speed limit on Class 4 lanes and then let mopeds and Class 3 ebikes use the class 4 lanes?

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 8:10pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 7:41pm
In British Columbia Canada, the law for max speed on a moped is 70 km/h (43.4 mph).

Is that too fast for the US?

Should US change the max speed for mopeds?
I can't speak for BC road conditions (except that I want no part of them). But if that's true, I think BC should lower the threshold between moped and motorcycle to about 30 mph. That's the difference between a probably not fatal crash and a likely fatal crash.

I think it only makes sense to allow everybody access to the general traffic lane, but require insurance, licensing, and registration according to the speed of what they're operating.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 24 2022 9:13pm

I didn't realize California allows Class 3 ebikes in Class 4 (i.e. protected) bike lane.

So a 28 mph ebike is allowed but a 30 moped is not allowed?

Hopefully this gets fixed soon.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 24 2022 9:17pm

:lol:
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:13pm
Hopefully this gets fixed soon.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 24 2022 9:25pm

calab wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:17pm
:lol:
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:13pm
Hopefully this gets fixed soon.
Well at one time apparently Class 3 ebikes were excluded from Class 4 lanes in California (See below):
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 24 2022 9:27pm

I was laughing at the state of california fixing anything
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:25pm
calab wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:17pm
:lol:
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:13pm
Hopefully this gets fixed soon.
Well at one time apparently Class 3 ebikes were excluded from Class 4 lanes in California (See below):

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 10:58pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote: I didn't realize California allows Class 3 ebikes in Class 4 (i.e. protected) bike lane.

So a 28 mph ebike is allowed but a 30 moped is not allowed?
Why would you think it would be a good idea for any 28 mph or 30 mph vehicle to be in a bike lane?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 24 2022 11:06pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 24 2022 9:13pm

Image
Did not know this. Interesting.

So a Class 3 eBike which is an ebike capable of 28 mph is allowed in all the bike lanes except Class 1. (a bike path)

Great.

Just remember Natural Law... Do No Harm.... just because you are allowed in a bike lane does not mean you can harm others.

If a rider causes an accident that is a divine "Wrong" in Natural Law.

All things that do NOT harm others are your divine "Rights".

So you never escape the divine law even if "Man's Law" allows the circumstance to manifest.

I know I'm sounding very "legalistic" but the foundation of our "Rights" are based in Natural Law and few know about it.
Last edited by SafeDiscDancing on Jan 24 2022 11:52pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 11:09pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:06pm
Just remember Natural Law...
Please tell us where that's codified, so we can be in compliance.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 24 2022 11:17pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:09pm
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:06pm
Just remember Natural Law...
Please tell us where that's codified, so we can be in compliance.
It's the foundation of all American documents.

Basically the Constitution was written as the shining example to the world of how to put Natural Law at the very heart of a civilized social order.

All previous governments had been created as "decrees" by the rulers who would routinely brutalize their "serfs".

America based it's entire mindset around Natural Law which gives the individual ALL "Rights" that aren't a "Wrong".

In other words "Rights" are all the possibilities and the "Wrong" is restricted to just harm.

But these days America has been Dumbed Down so far that it's getting hard to find anyone who even remembers American ideas.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 24 2022 11:35pm

America has been pussified where everyone gets a trophy in their safe spaces.
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:17pm
But these days America has been Dumbed Down so far that it's getting hard to find anyone who even remembers American ideas.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 24 2022 11:53pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:17pm
Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:09pm
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:06pm
Just remember Natural Law...
Please tell us where that's codified, so we can be in compliance.
It's the foundation of all American documents.
Show me the text, keeping in mind that almost all the folks involved were slave owners. I wanna read what you're talking about.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 12:03am

calab wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:35pm
America has been pussified where everyone gets a trophy in their safe spaces.
When I was a kid I remember making up phrase that went:

"We are free to FAIL in America."

And my guess is that was around 1980 when I was using that to test for a reaction.

Since then it has been nothing but Dumb and Dumber each year.

I am afraid that we are very close to the point where so few are alive who both know the basic American ideas and who are willing to embrace them that it's looking really bad going forward. But you never know.

The saying "it is darkest before the light" might be the case. But it's still getting darker now.

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