How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
ebike4healthandfitness   10 kW

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How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 27 2021 7:04pm

How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

I know Californians have a pretty easy time in that they only have to pay a one registration fee of $23 which does not require renewal or proof of insurance. For electric powered mopeds they are also allowed to have foot pegs (or a floor board) as an option to pedals. Only requirements for registration are automatic transmission, brake horsepower under 4 HP (i.e. 2982 watts or less) and max speed not to exceed 30 mph on flat ground. For operation a driver's license with M2 (moped) or M1 (Motorcycle) endorsement is required as well as the small license plate which is issued after the registration is done.

In contrast, I know New Jersey limits the power of their mopeds to only 1.5 horsepower (1119 watts) and 25 mph. Necessary safety equipment must
be on the moped. There is no need for a moped or motorcycle endorsement on the user's driver's license though.

I bring to this up because I have been, of course, noticing a lot of high power builds at the moped power level (or even at motorcycle power level) but at the same time there is a very strong resistance to equip these builds with the safety equipment (like turn signal indicators, brake light, headlight, sideview mirrors) that keeps the user safe. This because of the fear of looking like a motorcycle. This leads me to wonder how much people don't like their state's moped laws? Is registering your high powered ebike as a moped really that distasteful to you?

P.S. For a good look at what full moped gear looks like see the Juiced bikes HyperScorpion. It builds on the Scorpion X ebike which already has the brake light and large head light and adds front and rear turn signals, side view mirrors, license plate holder, motor with 250 more watts. It still lacks in having DOT tires though, but Juiced claims it can still be registered in California as a moped. I do hope to see the bicycle tires go from the HyperScorpion in the future and in their place tubeless DOT tires from a good brand that is also good model.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 28 2021 12:05am

With ebikes now allowed 28 mph via class 3 perhaps the moped speed limit of 30 mph shared by most states including California should be increased? Suspension, brakes and particularly tires have really improved since that 30 mph limit was made a long time ago. As a reference British Columbia allows a max speed of 70 km/h (43 mph) for mopeds, but limits power to 1500 watts making that obviously hard to obtain.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 28 2021 12:20am

Most everywhere in Canada, mopeds are flying under the radar. The specific moped laws are applied only to stuff a trafic code violation case. I mean, the police is not interested to enforce moped laws, unless the riders behave like hooligans and deserve the ‘full force of the law’.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 28 2021 12:42am

MadRhino wrote:
Nov 28 2021 12:20am
Most everywhere in Canada, mopeds are flying under the radar. The specific moped laws are applied only to stuff a trafic code violation case. I mean, the police is not interested to enforce moped laws, unless the riders behave like hooligans and deserve the ‘full force of the law’.
And how are the mopeds flying under the radar? By omitting safety equipment and other features like footpegs. That is exactly what I wish could be changed.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by goatman » Nov 28 2021 1:32am

why does, what others are doing, bug you so much?

ive got over 20,000 kms on my bikes, if the cops had any issues with the way i ride they would deal with it but they dont

typically the only time a cop will go out of their way to bug someone that isnt harming anyone is when someone like yourself calls and complains.
i guess im not bugging anyone else either with my bikes and speeds otherwise id be getting bugged by the police.

my bikes are fast,tuned and safe.
safe means you can get the frig out of the way when necessary
safe means you can stop on a dime because you know what tires grip and which ones slide,
no heavy ass dot 3 tires for me thank you very much

the world was fun when i was a kid, we had alot of freedoms that my kids can no longer enjoy because of people
that complain too much,about things they know nothing about.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by markz » Nov 28 2021 1:40am

Exactly :thumb:

So what speeds are you riding and is it always on the road in the middle of the right lane or riding the curb in the right lane or you rocking the middle lanes when not about to turn?

All your ebikes are bicycles right? Not enduro/stealth suitcase frames.
I can't remember :oops: I thought maybe long cruisers and stuff but arent you also trikes? :oops:
You crashed your recumbent trike on the bridge in the rain/dark or something.

Are they RC's there in Surrey BC or City Fuzz/Cops?
It does matter, its a different "Puffy Chest" syndrome aka Ego and also racism/sexism levels. Very strong in the RC dept. But rural vs city can be a different vibe I think, I have no clue. I've always been big city 1M+

goatman wrote:
Nov 28 2021 1:32am
why does, what others are doing, bug you so much?

ive got over 20,000 kms on my bikes, if the cops had any issues with the way i ride they would deal with it but they dont

typically the only time a cop will go out of their way to bug someone that isnt harming anyone is when someone like yourself calls and complains.
i guess im not bugging anyone else either with my bikes and speeds otherwise id be getting bugged by the police.

my bikes are fast,tuned and safe.
safe means you can get the frig out of the way when necessary
safe means you can stop on a dime because you know what tires grip and which ones slide,
no heavy ass dot 3 tires for me thank you very much

the world was fun when i was a kid, we had alot of freedoms that my kids can no longer enjoy because of people
that complain too much,about things they know nothing about.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 28 2021 4:02am

goatman wrote:
Nov 28 2021 1:32am
why does, what others are doing, bug you so much?
All you have to do is Google "Surge in ebike accidents" or "Spike in ebike accidents" or just "ebike accidents" to see why I would ask this question.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by dogman dan » Nov 28 2021 7:28am

Nothing wrong with good brakes, and mirrors. Even on sub 30 mph bikes. No need for more complicated, more hard to comply with laws though.

Turn signals and brake lights,, not so sure anybody sees them on motorcycles, unless at night. And at night, of course a good set of lights is needed.

But making laws is the days of covid, sure doesn't mean anybody is around to enforce them, or prosecute them. Smash and grab mobs an example of that. So is the speed of the drivers on the highway near my house.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by goatman » Nov 28 2021 11:58am

markz wrote:
Nov 28 2021 1:40am
Exactly :thumb:

So what speeds are you riding and is it always on the road in the middle of the right lane or riding the curb in the right lane or you rocking the middle lanes when not about to turn?

All your ebikes are bicycles right? Not enduro/stealth suitcase frames.
I can't remember :oops: I thought maybe long cruisers and stuff but arent you also trikes? :oops:
You crashed your recumbent trike on the bridge in the rain/dark or something.

Are they RC's there in Surrey BC or City Fuzz/Cops?
It does matter, its a different "Puffy Chest" syndrome aka Ego and also racism/sexism levels. Very strong in the RC dept. But rural vs city can be a different vibe I think, I have no clue. I've always been big city 1M+

goatman wrote:
Nov 28 2021 1:32am
why does, what others are doing, bug you so much?

ive got over 20,000 kms on my bikes, if the cops had any issues with the way i ride they would deal with it but they dont

typically the only time a cop will go out of their way to bug someone that isnt harming anyone is when someone like yourself calls and complains.
i guess im not bugging anyone else either with my bikes and speeds otherwise id be getting bugged by the police.

my bikes are fast,tuned and safe.
safe means you can get the frig out of the way when necessary
safe means you can stop on a dime because you know what tires grip and which ones slide,
no heavy ass dot 3 tires for me thank you very much

the world was fun when i was a kid, we had alot of freedoms that my kids can no longer enjoy because of people
that complain too much,about things they know nothing about.
im bicycle and everyday i do atleast 70km/h when forced into traffic, typically cruise at 40 to 50 but designers of bike lanes seem to like to take people on scenic routes.
the reason they do that is so they dont have to add bike lanes to bridges or overpasses or train tracks, bike lanes abruptly end at those points
they plow snow into the bike lanes i commute the entire mainland, delta police, new west police, vancouver police and rcmp are surrey/coquitlam and travel on the roads not pathways

what are these guys going to do when they see me doing 70km/h on a EUC, no pedals and no pegs :shock:

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 28 2021 12:50pm

dogman dan wrote:
Nov 28 2021 7:28am

Turn signals and brake lights,, not so sure anybody sees them on motorcycles, unless at night. And at night, of course a good set of lights is needed.
I do notice motorcycle brake lights and turn signal indicators even in the day time. This despite I keep a good distance behind them.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 28 2021 3:13pm

dogman dan wrote:
Nov 28 2021 7:28am
No need for more complicated, more hard to comply with laws though.
Safety is important and death and injury is exactly what can cause additional laws to be passed that bring extra restrictions into effect.

A bit concerning to me is the improvements in batteries that are going to bring about an increase in average pack capacity (which also means higher average discharge rate per pack) and recharge rate.
This means we will likely see an increase in average ebike speed combined with an increase in the distance traveled. This doesn't make me believe death and injury rates will decrease but rather increase even further if no other changes occur.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 28 2021 10:38pm

Faster, smaller ev’s with longer range is exactly what is going to reduce car trafic and resources consumed for transportation. Lightweight, smaller vehicles usage need to be facilitated, sure not discouraged with excessive regulations and restrictions. The heavier people travel, the more victims they make. Bikes and scooters are very unlikely to kill innocent victims, as compared to cars. The rider is the one at risk and that is OK with me. Stupid riders might kill themselves, that is much better than stupid drivers killing others on their way.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by dogman dan » Nov 29 2021 8:05am

Exactly. We don't need more complicated laws. They only confuse, and discourage adoption of light vehicles.

The three class e bike law was written by a guy who only wanted to sell e bikes. It has nothing to do with making it easy to comply with it, enforce it, only to allow him to sell a 48v bike legally . It came with complicated shit attached that satisfied the California state legislators he needed a vote from. I told him the law was stupid, and discriminatory against the handicapped before it was passed. (Pedal assist requirements) But his interest was selling bikes, ONLY.

It should have been 30 mph limit, period. But he did not have the votes for that version. The old federal law that also applied only to selling an e bike, not riding it, is even stupider. Who can tell the wattage of any e bike. Nobody. Don just wanted a state law that superseded that one. He needed to sell 48v bikes in California.

Stuff like turn signals might be seen by you, and I bet they are seen by highly aware motorcycle riders too. But that guy playing a game on his phone while his car edges into the bike lane,, nope, he never saw the bike he hit.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 29 2021 4:49pm

dogman dan wrote:
Nov 29 2021 8:05am
Who can tell the wattage of any e bike. Nobody.
It is possible to measure the power.

In fact, in Australia a coroner wants legislation to detect and prevent hidden high powered ebikes:

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsr ... ian-death/

"In her report, Coroner Audrey Jamison asked that, "with the aim of improving public health and safety and preventing like deaths” that countermeasures be identified to improve compliance with the laws regarding electric bicycles “including but not limited to establishing how best to detect and prevent people operating high powered electric bicycles without licence or registration as if they were power assisted pedal bicycles.”"

The article calls this process unmasking.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by khorse » Nov 29 2021 6:29pm

That article isn't worth the bandwidth. Uses lots of scare quotes and phrasing like "so called", "pumping out" etc, trying to make 500w sound like a lot and claims throttle controls are dangerous. Typical yellow journalism.

To police wattage accurately would be impractical. You'd have to pull over every single bike and slap a clamp meter on it, check the real voltage of the battery with a multimeter, do the maths, and then you end up with a gross figure that still doesn't take into account actual power at the output shaft... not that it would matter, because anyone who could apply ohms law would be considered too intelligent to pass police recruitment.

Or they could fork out for special portable rolling road dynometers sized for bicycle tyres, calibrated in the 100-1000W range, with accuracy of +/- 10W. Does such a thing readily exist? If not, I think that might cost more than the police car carrying it.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 29 2021 7:56pm

The more regulation they make, the less the police cares about them. Aus is well known for excessive ‘nanny state’ regulation and law. Normal people are not asking for more regulation but those who do, can benefit free medication program.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Nov 29 2021 9:05pm

khorse wrote:
Nov 29 2021 6:29pm
they could fork out for special portable rolling road dynometers sized for bicycle tyres, calibrated in the 100-1000W range, with accuracy of +/- 10W. Does such a thing readily exist? If not, I think that might cost more than the police car carrying it.
It shouldn't be too expensive to make. It could also be made pretty small as well.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 30 2021 1:35am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Nov 29 2021 9:05pm
khorse wrote:
Nov 29 2021 6:29pm
they could fork out for special portable rolling road dynometers sized for bicycle tyres, calibrated in the 100-1000W range, with accuracy of +/- 10W. Does such a thing readily exist? If not, I think that might cost more than the police car carrying it.
It shouldn't be too expensive to make. It could also be made pretty small as well.
They don’t need that. They can get you off the street for so many reasons, they only need to write one. Then send your bike to complete dismantle search, keep it 6 month. and charge you for it.

When will you realize that jerks don’t need to be fast, and most fast riders are not jerks. Fast for an ebike or scooter, is to be able to ride with the trafic flow, AND it is the safe way to ride. Fast or slow, if you ride the sidewalks, scare people in the park, run red lights... they will get you and they have more than enough law to do it as hard as they want. Trafic law does regulate behavior, not vehicle conformation. You can add anything you want to vehicle conformation rules, the police will continue to enforce the trafic law. To enforce vehicle conformation rules, they need every vehicle to pass a periodic inspection. That is bureaucracy.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by dogman dan » Nov 30 2021 6:43am

Exactly. Police enforce the jackass rule. Be a jackass, talk to the police. Jackass can be defined many ways, including being the guy always writing the letter to the editor in the newspaper. But usually its people with drugs on board, or some kind of brain damage that ride ignoring all traffic rules. The guy always going the wrong way on the street, or riding weaving around at 5 mph in the lane, etc. He's often got a pocket full of fentanyl to sell. He needs police, and gets them.

Or in my case, it was being the little brother of the biggest drug dealer in the county, in 1968. By 1973 when I started to drive a car, it became very necessary for me to drive perfect, with all lights and such perfect.

But yeah, if you ride fast scaring all the moms on the MUP, you'll get to talk to cops at some point. Most likely when you hit the baby.

And if you are nice, you can ride your homemade motorcycle with pedals all over with no problems.

Some laws are quite handy for the cops when they want to police a jackass, but wattage limits are not one of them. Regular speed limits, and stopping at stop signs, etc are all they need.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by khorse » Nov 30 2021 7:25am

Cops love fentanyl. They love to plant some on people and then pretend that they overdosed on contact with it during the search. It's way better than the "broken tail light" because not only do they get to put you in jail, but they also get paid sick leave and showered in attention from gullable local tv news. Of course any doctor can tell you you can't OD on fent just from touching it, but nobody lets facts get in the way of law enforcement.

Personally I deal with cops by not being in the same place as them. They go on a road I'm on, I go off. I do a lot of city riding, so that's easy enough to go into an alley in a second or two. It's about minimising the time in their presence without having to speed off and draw attention to yourself.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by dogman dan » Dec 01 2021 6:32am

Not a bad policy to go with, in any city. Doubly so, if they know you too well.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 21 2021 1:50am

dogman dan wrote:
Nov 30 2021 6:43am
Some laws are quite handy for the cops when they want to police a jackass, but wattage limits are not one of them. Regular speed limits, and stopping at stop signs, etc are all they need.
In California, electric push scooters have no limit on power or top speed as delivered by the manufacturer. So a person can buy something like this:

https://youtu.be/Nn-IqhezeZw

As long as they promise not to go over 15 mph with it.

What if ebikes and mopeds were the same way? (Unregulated power and top speed from the manufacturer)

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Dec 21 2021 2:14am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 21 2021 1:50am
What if ebikes and mopeds were the same way? (Unregulated power and top speed from the manufacturer)
Many of them would be motorcycles. We already have rules governing those.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 15 2022 4:05pm

According to this article Europe's limit on continuous power for mopeds is 4500 watts:

https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... eds-in-eu/

Do you think the US and Canada should accept that power level also?

Based on the ebikes.ca motor simulator a bit less than 3000 watts (i.e. California moped level) is good for carrying two average weight American passengers (181 pounds each), their clothes and shoes plus the weight of the moped up a 15% grade over 15 mph. This assuming an average single speed power band. Obviously 4500 watts is going to allow steeper hills and greater weights if using the same single speed power train with an average powerband.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 16 2022 12:20am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 15 2022 4:05pm
According to this article Europe's limit on continuous power for mopeds is 4500 watts:

Do you think the US and Canada should accept that power level also?
No. Even at 3kW, pedals are nothing more than decoration. If it's a motorcycle, then let it be treated as a motorcycle. We have policies for those.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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