How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by donn » Jan 25 2022 12:08am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 10:58pm
Why would you think it would be a good idea for any 28 mph or 30 mph vehicle to be in a bike lane?
I wouldn't likely want to be in a "protected" lane going 30mph - and in fact I don't ride 30 mph, anyway. But I guess I have a "30 mph vehicle", given that that I've seen it run up over 1400W and I think the flat ground load for 30mph is only about 1000W.

It's kind of complicated. We can see as plain as day that we can't expect every ebike rider to be considerate and responsible, but it's kind of the nature of bicycling that we have to adapt to conditions, and crippling the bike to constrain the fools will lose you some of the flexibility to adapt like that.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:09am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:03am
When I was a kid I remember making up phrase that went:

"We are free to FAIL in America."
And you did. Yay! You get a prize!
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 12:11am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 11:53pm
Show me
You need to comprehend Natural Law or any text will be beyond your level of understanding.

But you are in luck.. I know a great video that teaches Natural Law.

Mark Passio. Have you heard of him?

https://www.bitchute.com/video/eOVvFDxIc31q/

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:12am

donn wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:08am
We can see as plain as day that we can't expect every ebike rider to be considerate and responsible, but it's kind of the nature of bicycling that we have to adapt to conditions, and crippling the bike to constrain the fools will lose you some of the flexibility to adapt like that.
Yet we have over a hundred years of pedal cyclists to demonstrate that you don't need superhuman speeds to adapt to conditions.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:16am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:11am
Mark Passio. Have you heard of him?
No. And Wikipedia hasn't heard of him either. But I googled him and found he seems to be part of the crackpot subculture, like yourself.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 12:29am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:16am
No. And Wikipedia hasn't heard of him either. But I googled him and found he seems to be part of the crackpot subculture, like yourself.
So let me guess... you will now "ignore" Natural Law and tell others:

"Natural Law is just a bunch of crackpot ideas."

Okay... well... you seem very easy to understand.

This is where we need a laugh track. :lol:

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:33am

So... tell me where I can read reputable material on your so-called Natural Law. If you can.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 12:38am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:33am
So... tell me where I can read reputable material on your so-called Natural Law. If you can.
You can do a search.

Mark Passio is a guy I like because he has a sort of street wise perspective and tells it like it is without sugar coating things.

Some sources will make the subject so dull you will give up on it.

Other sources will twist the truth so far you won't recognize it.

This is how things must be... all truth requires your ability to weed through tons of sources and arrive at wisdom.

All I can do is give a clue and then step aside.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:41am

So, because you're drinking from the poisoned right wing cuckoo bird well, we should all do the same? That doesn't seem useful.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 12:52am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:41am
That doesn't seem useful.
Calab and I were observing how Dumb and Dumber has effectively erased basic ideas.

And so you are like the "perfect example" of this process.

Rather than having a natural curiousity to want to investigate something that goes back to Ancient Greek civilization you simply think:

"Well my television never talks about Natural Law so it must not be true."

And frankly the vast majority of America is like that now... so beaten down by the social conditioning that you COULD NOT even find the will to go outside your cage if you tried.

Mark Passio would describe you as a slave... a tool... a "useful idiot" serving people you don't even comprehend.

You should be thanking me I even gave you a clue.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 25 2022 12:54am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:52am
Rather than having a natural curiousity to want to investigate something that goes back to Ancient Greek civilization
Again you refer back to slave owners. You think they're better than moral people or something?
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by donn » Jan 25 2022 2:11am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:12am
donn wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:08am
We can see as plain as day that we can't expect every ebike rider to be considerate and responsible, but it's kind of the nature of bicycling that we have to adapt to conditions, and crippling the bike to constrain the fools will lose you some of the flexibility to adapt like that.
Yet we have over a hundred years of pedal cyclists to demonstrate that you don't need superhuman speeds to adapt to conditions.
You really love to pull that one out, don't you? Thousands of years say who needs wheels, we could have walked! As it happens, I walk a lot - it's good for you and the transportation infrastructure generally supports it very well. You bicycling jerks should get mopeds, so your slow asses don't get in the way of cars when you're out on the road.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 2:15am

That would be the ultimate eco-friendly mode of transportation, walking but the way society is most are just lazy and fat but bicycles would be a close second and dont you know anything and everything electric is also eco-friendly :wink: and most of all if it has pedals then thats even better and legal :lol:
donn wrote:
Jan 25 2022 2:11am
Chalo wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:12am
donn wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:08am
We can see as plain as day that we can't expect every ebike rider to be considerate and responsible, but it's kind of the nature of bicycling that we have to adapt to conditions, and crippling the bike to constrain the fools will lose you some of the flexibility to adapt like that.
Yet we have over a hundred years of pedal cyclists to demonstrate that you don't need superhuman speeds to adapt to conditions.
You really love to pull that one out, don't you? Thousands of years say who needs wheels, we could have walked! As it happens, I walk a lot - it's good for you and the transportation infrastructure generally supports it very well. You bicycling jerks should get mopeds, so your slow asses don't get in the way of cars when you're out on the road.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 7:27am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 24 2022 10:58pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote: I didn't realize California allows Class 3 ebikes in Class 4 (i.e. protected) bike lane.

So a 28 mph ebike is allowed but a 30 moped is not allowed?
Why would you think it would be a good idea for any 28 mph or 30 mph vehicle to be in a bike lane?
If a class 4 lane was built it's generally done because the traffic conditions on that street are not friendly to bicycles. So yes it is a good idea to get mopeds and Class 3 ebikes out of traffic.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 10:39am

donn wrote:
Jan 25 2022 2:11am
You really love to pull that one out, don't you? Thousands of years say who needs wheels, we could have walked! As it happens, I walk a lot - it's good for you and the transportation infrastructure generally supports it very well. You bicycling jerks should get mopeds, so your slow asses don't get in the way of cars when you're out on the road.
Chalo is under the mistaken impression we are not slaves now.

He has no clue.

"Peak Freedom" occurred during the time of Andrew Jackson in the 1830's and this was a very rough pioneering period with rugged individuals living free on their own farms growing their own foods.

It's hard in our time to even imagine this type of freedom.

They followed Natural Law and were very careful to "Do No Harm" as the world was a rough and dangerous place for everyone back then.

But there were exceptions.

Some towns were peaceful and most everyone would go to their local church and behave kindly towards each other.

Then as little as a hundred miles away you might have a rough town with Saloons and gun violence.

-----------------

*** MKULTRA ***

"Mind Kontrol Ultra" was the continuation of the mind control techniques developed in Germany and this has been the dominant way of introducing nonsense into American culture post WW2.

And Vacaville, California was one of the places they did these tests on prisoners in the Vacaville jail. This is an area not far from San Francisco which at the Presidio was another area where the military was testing different psyops.

Anyway... what we know as "Modern Slavery" is done by heavy repetition of nonsense.

The television had been the primary way to force nonsense into people and they even called it "programming". :lol:

These days social media attermpts to be the slave masters but it seems to be failing as people notice the manipulation better.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Quinc » Jan 25 2022 11:30am

In CA and I really dont want to pay another tax/fee for a toy. Hopefully pro-long that I am trying out pedals that fold into pegs. Along with a switch that limits power to 20ish mph. And hopefully for anyone that doesn't want our hobby taken away will ride slowly around people and not ride like an a-hole...

Here are the pedals I am talking about:
https://youtu.be/6tPVFBzcnSI

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 12:41pm

Social media is not failing in mind control and slavery. The consumer is the willing slave, they always say "what do I have to hide"
Its only the rare few that see their true attempts to control us for a buck. Television has lost its control due to social media, television news is not controlled by the government anymore like decades ago, they are now controlled by big pharm and big corps like the koche brothers. Imagine if we as a society can actually organize like the political lobby groups, the problem there is no ones willing to donate to the cause and what cause is that and does it line up with the donators cause. How powerful are the special interest group for ebikes? and compare that to the well funded environmental interest groups or a better comparison would be the local business lobby for the stores parking spaces taking up by bike lanes and squeezing traffic flow for bicycle lanes that arent busy like vehicle lanes.
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 10:39am
Anyway... what we know as "Modern Slavery" is done by heavy repetition of nonsense.

The television had been the primary way to force nonsense into people and they even called it "programming". :lol:

These days social media attermpts to be the slave masters but it seems to be failing as people notice the manipulation better.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Quinc » Jan 25 2022 1:04pm

calab wrote:
Jan 25 2022 12:41pm
Social media is not failing in mind control and slavery. The consumer is the willing slave, they always say "what do I have to hide"
Its only the rare few that see their true attempts to control us for a buck. Television has lost its control due to social media, television news is not controlled by the government anymore like decades ago, they are now controlled by big pharm and big corps like the koche brothers. Imagine if we as a society can actually organize like the political lobby groups, the problem there is no ones willing to donate to the cause and what cause is that and does it line up with the donators cause. How powerful are the special interest group for ebikes? and compare that to the well funded environmental interest groups or a better comparison would be the local business lobby for the stores parking spaces taking up by bike lanes and squeezing traffic flow for bicycle lanes that arent busy like vehicle lanes.
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 10:39am
Anyway... what we know as "Modern Slavery" is done by heavy repetition of nonsense.

The television had been the primary way to force nonsense into people and they even called it "programming". :lol:

These days social media attermpts to be the slave masters but it seems to be failing as people notice the manipulation better.
https://youtu.be/09maaUaRT4M

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 1:28pm

Thanks for the link, I am well aware but I weave a story as it pertains to the subject matter. I may have weaved a long story for a one liner at the end but stayed on topic with 33% of the bulk at the end on topic. I feel strongly that we as a hobby type group and cyclists in general should have a stronger organization to help with our goals, yes we probably do have a organization in some form but how strong are they. Its been said we need someone with knowledge to help direct the dumb politicians but those politicians also want votes. One way we can spin things is bicycles is a green mode of transport and lithium ion batteries can be recycled and used again. With all the talk of going green they are sure slow to adopt green modes of transport such as bicycles and ebikes/mopeds because the general public has no appetite for taking up commuter lanes or parking lanes for bicycle lanes, hov lanes. As the population grows and the commuter lanes get clogged and commute time gets longer and longer, mass transit is already somewhat of a priority (depends where you are), new communities being built should take bicycle lanes into priority but I see its not because officials are stupid and dumb. They could not foresee back decades ago to make main thorough fares wider to introduce hov lanes or an area to build rails but 15-20 years ago should have been the start of thinking smarter not harder. I dont know about having 2 areas of traffic such as a bicycle/ebike section and a moped section then the one lane in each direction for vehicles, I do think sooner or later those vehicle lanes will have to be pinched off.

Quinc wrote:
Jan 25 2022 1:04pm
https://youtu.be/09maaUaRT4M

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Quinc » Jan 25 2022 2:31pm

calab wrote:
Jan 25 2022 1:28pm
Thanks for the link, I am well aware but I weave a story as it pertains to the subject matter. I may have weaved a long story for a one liner at the end but stayed on topic with 33% of the bulk at the end on topic. I feel strongly that we as a hobby type group and cyclists in general should have a stronger organization to help with our goals, yes we probably do have a organization in some form but how strong are they. Its been said we need someone with knowledge to help direct the dumb politicians but those politicians also want votes. One way we can spin things is bicycles is a green mode of transport and lithium ion batteries can be recycled and used again. With all the talk of going green they are sure slow to adopt green modes of transport such as bicycles and ebikes/mopeds because the general public has no appetite for taking up commuter lanes or parking lanes for bicycle lanes, hov lanes. As the population grows and the commuter lanes get clogged and commute time gets longer and longer, mass transit is already somewhat of a priority (depends where you are), new communities being built should take bicycle lanes into priority but I see its not because officials are stupid and dumb. They could not foresee back decades ago to make main thorough fares wider to introduce hov lanes or an area to build rails but 15-20 years ago should have been the start of thinking smarter not harder. I dont know about having 2 areas of traffic such as a bicycle/ebike section and a moped section then the one lane in each direction for vehicles, I do think sooner or later those vehicle lanes will have to be pinched off.
Like you said in the last post, unless there is big money for a company to make off it, no one will care enough to lobby for it. Although there are non-profits of people helping to save hobbies, but it seems like they are constantly working defense and trying to stop losing more rather then gaining anything.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 8:32pm

Something I noticed comparing the old California moped law to the new one is that the old one limited top speed to 30 mph which included the rider's muscle input but the new law specifies 30 mph just on the motor.

https://www.rosenthalinjurylaw.com/cali ... oped-laws/
The vehicle must have a motor that produces no more than 2 brake horsepower
The vehicle must be pedal and/or motor operated
The vehicle must possess an automatic transmission
The vehicle’s maximum speed is 30 mph, including instances in which the driver is pedaling and using the motor at the same time.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... ionNum=406
A “motorized bicycle” or “moped” is a two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 9:48pm

Do you really think any of that actually matters on the side of the road? Its only good for your day in court in front of the lowly traffic judge :thumb:
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 25 2022 8:32pm
Something I noticed comparing the old California moped law to the new one is that the old one limited top speed to 30 mph which included the rider's muscle input but the new law specifies 30 mph just on the motor.

https://www.rosenthalinjurylaw.com/cali ... oped-laws/
The vehicle must have a motor that produces no more than 2 brake horsepower
The vehicle must be pedal and/or motor operated
The vehicle must possess an automatic transmission
The vehicle’s maximum speed is 30 mph, including instances in which the driver is pedaling and using the motor at the same time.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... ionNum=406
A “motorized bicycle” or “moped” is a two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 10:35pm

I like the mandatory disclosure in the new California moped law as well:
Every manufacturer of a motorized bicycle or moped, as defined in this section, shall provide a disclosure to uyers that advises buyers that their existing insurance policies may not provide coverage for these bicycles and that they should contact their insurance company or insurance agent to determine if coverage is provided. The disclosure shall meet both of the following requirements:

(1) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information other than the disclosure.

(2) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital letters:


“YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT.”
That is very important to know and understand. This especially if you ever get hit by an uninsured motorist in the future. Same thing goes for ebikes and purely human powered bikes.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 11:16pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 25 2022 10:35pm
“YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT.”
How much ACTUAL harm can a bicycle or moped do?

I was thinking about this today on my hike... Natural Law is about how to compensate AFTER the harm happens.

We need to resist falling into the "Pre-Crime" trap.

There was a movie made about this where the police would arrest people before they actually did a crime.

Image

The automobile is a massive hunk of metal that weighs 3,000 lbs and when it hits something there will be severe harm.

But a bicycle, ebike or moped is somewhere from 25 lbs to 150 lbs so the potential for harm is drastically lower.

3,000 lbs / 150 lbs = 20 times more.

The car is 20 times more capable of harm than the bikes.

But this is before adjusting for speed. If the speed is kept below 28 mph and you compare that to a car on the freeway doing 75 mph you begin to grasp tyhe scale of harm differences.

The true insurance risk is probably 100 times more with a car if not 500 times more.
Last edited by SafeDiscDancing on Jan 25 2022 11:25pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 11:21pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:16pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 25 2022 10:35pm
“YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT.”
How much ACTUAL harm can a bicycle or moped do?

I was thinking about this today on my hike... Natural Law is about how to compensate AFTER the harm happens.

We need to resist falling into the "Pre-Crime" trap.

There was a movie made about this where the police would arrest people before they actually did a crime.

The automobile is a massive hunk of metal that weighs 3,000 lbs and when it hits something there will be severe harm.

But a bicycle, ebike or moped is somewhere from 25 lbs to 150 lbs so the potential for harm is drastically lower.

3,000 lbs / 150 lbs = 20 times more.

The car is 20 times more capable of harm than the bikes.
If you hit a pedestrian even with just a 20 lb human powered bicycle at 15 mph it could cause a lot of damage especially an elderly person or a younger person.

With that noted, I think it is more likely that a car would hit a bicycle than a bicycle hitting a pedestrian. So think about that too. What if the car hitting the cyclist is uninsured? Do the policies you already have cover this as well as you hitting a pedestrian or hitting another cyclist?
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Jan 25 2022 11:31pm, edited 3 times in total.

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