How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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SafeDiscDancing   10 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 11:29pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:21pm
If you hit a pedestrian even with just a 20 lb human powered bicycle at 15 mph it could cause a lot of damage especially an elderly person or a younger person.
The scientific data on that must exist somewhere.

People who do insurance know all this data.

My point is that when you go to the hard data what do you see?

The tendency towards "Pre-Crime" thinking assumes the unlikely is the certain.

We know a car has speed and mass and can kill.

But what do we know about bicycles killing 15 people in a big crowd?

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 11:32pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:29pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:21pm
If you hit a pedestrian even with just a 20 lb human powered bicycle at 15 mph it could cause a lot of damage especially an elderly person or a younger person.
The scientific data on that must exist somewhere.

People who do insurance know all this data.

My point is that when you go to the hard data what do you see?

The tendency towards "Pre-Crime" thinking assumes the unlikely is the certain.

We know a car has speed and mass and can kill.

But what do we know about bicycles killing 15 people in a big crowd?
An accident is an accident. It is not something people plan to do.
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Jan 25 2022 11:33pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 11:33pm

People get hit by a single punch to the head, the punch did not kill them it was the head hitting the ground that killed him. A friend of mine died that way about 10 years ago and the culprit got manslaughter and a year in frocking jail, I hope it cost him a ton of money to pay the lawyer but he was out in half the time of playing poker and eating mr noodle burritos on the unit. I never knew what kind of background the punk had and I dont know if it was a sucker punch or blind sided I just cant remember. Since its manslaughter its never erased from his official rap sheet unlike pettier crimes but even today information is shared between countries but in terms of hiding it from a casual job application yes it can be hidden but maybe not manslaughter from a pig criminal check for baby sitting or security guard, maybe never hidden from a half ass dive from kpmg https://www.goingconcern.com/open-items ... und-check/
TBH I knew of a robber who worked for a major telecommunication company, he knew how the system worked and just said he got a few dui's so the low level check those companies do dont come up with specifics just somethings there. He ended up dying of a over dose after suffering from a bad od which frocked up his walking/gait.

People who will know safediskdancing are actuaries, people who do insurance just punch in the data. I know a few of those and it good to find out if you get hit by a car and say ouch, thats $2-6k, get a bruise $4-6k, get hit from behind car vs car soft tissue is $8-12k, break limb bones $20-50k plus lost income.

Accidents are avoidable ebike4health one stupid mofo is to blame and they should pay in full, never no-fault bullshit.
Last edited by calab on Jan 25 2022 11:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 11:38pm

calab wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:33pm

Accidents are avoidable ebike4health
I think defensive riding can help us (as cyclists) prevent accidents, but I don't it will be ever be 100% effective. There are just too many things beyond our control.

Then think about motorists hitting you on a human powered bike, ebike, or moped. That is something defensive riding can also help but not completely.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 11:45pm

Passenger cars and light trucks (vans, pickups, and sport utility vehicles) accounted for 46.1% and 39.1%, respectively, of the 4875 deaths, with the remainder split among motorcycles, buses, and heavy trucks. Compared with cars, the RR of killing a pedestrian per vehicle mile was 7.97 (95% CI 6.33 to 10.04) for buses; 1.93 (95% CI 1.30 to 2.86) for motorcycles; 1.45 (95% CI 1.37 to 1.55) for light trucks, and 0.96 (95% CI 0.79 to 1.18) for heavy trucks. Compared with cars, buses were 11.85 times (95% CI 6.07 to 23.12) and motorcycles were 3.77 times (95% CI 1.40 to 10.20) more likely per mile to kill children 0–14 years old. Buses were 16.70 times (95% CI 7.30 to 38.19) more likely to kill adults age 85 or older than were cars. The risk of killing a pedestrian per vehicle mile traveled in an urban area was 1.57 times (95% CI 1.47 to 1.67) the risk in a rural area.

-------------------

46.1% and 39.1% so a total of 85.2% of pedestrians are killed by cars.

Looks like motorcycles are 1.93%.

Which would mean bicycles, ebikes and mopeds are LESS than a percent.

But the data is difficult to figure out so I'm not sure.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 25 2022 11:54pm

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:45pm
Passenger cars and light trucks (vans, pickups, and sport utility vehicles) accounted for 46.1% and 39.1%, respectively, of the 4875 deaths, with the remainder split among motorcycles, buses, and heavy trucks. Compared with cars, the RR of killing a pedestrian per vehicle mile was 7.97 (95% CI 6.33 to 10.04) for buses; 1.93 (95% CI 1.30 to 2.86) for motorcycles; 1.45 (95% CI 1.37 to 1.55) for light trucks, and 0.96 (95% CI 0.79 to 1.18) for heavy trucks. Compared with cars, buses were 11.85 times (95% CI 6.07 to 23.12) and motorcycles were 3.77 times (95% CI 1.40 to 10.20) more likely per mile to kill children 0–14 years old. Buses were 16.70 times (95% CI 7.30 to 38.19) more likely to kill adults age 85 or older than were cars. The risk of killing a pedestrian per vehicle mile traveled in an urban area was 1.57 times (95% CI 1.47 to 1.67) the risk in a rural area.

-------------------

46.1% and 39.1% so a total of 85.2% of pedestrians are killed by cars.

Looks like motorcycles are 1.93%.

Which would mean bicycles, ebikes and mopeds are LESS than a percent.

But the data is difficult to figure out so I'm not sure.
According to the abstract above a motorcycle is more likely to kill a pedestrian or child than a car, but there are more cars on the road than motorcycles and each car gets driven more miles per day than each motorcycle.

P.S. The figure of 1.93 for motorcycles is not a percent. It is the Relative Risk (i.e. RR).
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Jan 25 2022 11:58pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 25 2022 11:54pm

Almost half (47%) of crashes that resulted in a pedestrian death involved alcohol for the driver and/or the pedestrian. One in every three (33%) fatal pedestrian crashes involved a pedestrian with a blood alcohol concentration of at least 0.08 grams per deciliter (g/dL), 17% involved a driver with a blood alcohol concentration of at least 0.08 g/dL, and some fatal pedestrian crashes involved both.

DRUNK PEDESTRIANS 33%

It's funny how the data gives a "bigger picture" view and tends to blunt the emotional hysteria created by the "scary isolated incident".

Nearly half the time if a pedestrian is going to die someone is hammered.

All the bike safety in the world won't fix that.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 26 2022 2:10am

SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 25 2022 11:54pm
Nearly half the time if a pedestrian is going to die someone is hammered.

All the bike safety in the world won't fix that.
You wanna live in a world where being incapacitated-- by intoxication, age, medical emergency, emotional state-- is a death sentence just because some prick thinks his unimportant errand warrants operating distracted in a 4000 pound, 150 mph toxic gas generator?

I don't think that's fair. I think any safety devices that protect the car driver are unethical.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 26 2022 10:21am

SPIN BY THE MEDIA

So let's think out the whole process.

First the facts of this fictional scenario:

--------------------------------

Saint Patrick's Day

Pedestrians killed by vehicles of all types nationwide - 10

8 killed by cars, 1 killed by bus, 1 killed by a moped.

All 10 were at a BAC level of 0.08 or above with 4 of them at over BAC level of 0.10.

------------------------------

This is how the story is written in a local paper:

"Tragedy struck in downtown Happyville as a moped struck and killed an innocent pedestrian. This person was riding a moped which lacked complete registration and the driver of it had failed to go through the $500 driver safety training school. Clearly in this day and age this type of rampant excess needs to be stopped. The only hope is to ban mopeds from all city streets and force them to stay out in the rural areas where their violence can harm those elsewhere. Now is the time to protest these horrible death machines and a rally will begin next Wednesday at noon at the town square of Happyville to remember this tragedy and fight for a better future."

That's not that far from how it really works.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 26 2022 11:31am

Ethics demands that the party who brings the risk of harm into a situation, bears responsibility when someone is harmed. Someone being drunk in public doesn't present as much risk of harm as someone operating a dangerous machine in public. Bad things can happen and people can die even when everybody is cold sober and following the rules of the road, just because one of them decided to use a murder vehicle.

I know victim blaming has crossed over from being an American pastime to being an American way of life, but blaming peds for being killed by motorists is objectively wrong and always has been.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 26 2022 11:49am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 26 2022 11:31am
Ethics demands that the.....
Hold on there Sparky.

Remember... you just got done DENYING THE EXISTENCE OF NATURAL LAW.

That disqualifies you.

How can you lecture on morality while denying morality?

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 26 2022 12:17pm

Your crackpottery doesn't have an agreed-upon meaning. Ethics, however, don't require subscription to any arbitrary belief.
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 26 2022 12:35pm

Chalo wrote:
Jan 26 2022 12:17pm
Your crackpottery doesn't have an agreed-upon meaning. Ethics, however, don't require subscription to any arbitrary belief.
What I have proven beyond any doubt is that you "choose" to be ignorant of Natural Law.

Wikipedia has an entry for it which is okay... a good place to start.

---------------------

Think of it like this...

If you were a bicycle mechanic but said:

"I know my job, but I do not understand how to adjust spoke tension to true a wheel."

Now think of a customer... will they see you as a "skilled mechanic" if you ignore this knowledge?

Law is the same way.

There are certain basic concepts that a lawyer or justice NEEDS to know or they cannot be considered qualified in their profession.

That's all I'm saying.

Just grasp basic principles.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by Chalo » Jan 26 2022 2:18pm

I don't subscribe to specious beliefs upheld by self-evidently bad people. You can if you want, but to do so calls your judgment into question.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154192/ ... atural-law

https://oxford.universitypressscholarsh ... -chapter-8
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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by calab » Jan 26 2022 3:22pm

Wikipedia is full of lies and its never a good place to start.
SafeDiscDancing wrote:
Jan 26 2022 12:35pm
Wikipedia has an entry for it which is okay... a good place to start.

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by donn » Jan 26 2022 4:16pm

Thanks, that rather clears it up for me. Hocus pocus.

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SafeDiscDancing   10 kW

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Re: How do you feel about your state's moped laws?

Post by SafeDiscDancing » Jan 28 2022 12:39pm

:idea:

---------- LAW spelled backwards is WALL ----------

Freedom is when you have no walls... no prisons.

And (again) if people are wise and choose to obey Natural Law and "Do No Harm" then in a perfect world we have no laws.

The number and severity of the laws represent the loss of natural life.

We always should favor less restrictions but it really depends on "The People" internalizing Natural Law.

Most people now cannot properly identify what is "Wrong" and what are your nearly infinite natural "Rights".

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