(Beginner) Long-term battery quality: EM3EV, Grin, EBike.CA, Luna

FuzzyWuzzy

100 mW
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
40
Hi all,

This is a beginner question, as beginner as it gets. I'm looking into building my first eBike but I'm not comfortable building my own batteries. I'm been doing A LOT of research about batteries that people like and it seems like there's a hierarchy of pure quality, ignoring price. Can people who have had these batteries for over a year post how their battery life is doing and how the battery quality and long-term construction is?

I promised I searched, and it looks like EM3EV is a winner. I would love to buy a Luna Direwolf... if it was available. I haven't seen that battery in stock since I hit puberty (that was a joke, but not really since I've been looking every week and it's just not in stock)
 
I have a 14S4P Shark battery with 35C cells from em3ev, and I have no complaints. I bought it two years ago and it's been in active use for a year and a half. I go through a cycle usually once or twice a week, charge to 90% and rarely discharge below 20%. The battery performs as new. Definitely get the charger that lets you charge to 90% for longevity!

Btw there is a better Android bluetooth app for em3ev batteries than the one they provide, you can find it in Google Play Store by the name "EM3EV BMS MONITOR".
 
I really liked the Luna wolf battery I got a few years back. It was strong, with low sag under heavy loads. Fully potted, I could charge it out in the rain, using an equally waterproof satiator charger. That alone was really cool.

But it did not last as long as it should have. The battery was given to me free so I could give it a very vigorous testing. I hit it with very high discharge rates using a big motor and higher power controller, running 2000w. After a year and a half of flawless service, it suddenly dropped in capacity, indicating that one cell had failed.

I did NOT take that as a sign of poor quality, I was testing it to destruction, deliberately running it hard and charging it fast.

Other batteries with similar cell chemistry had lasted me at most 2 years before they got very weak. So 18 months after trying to kill it as quick as possible was quite good!
 
June 2018 I bought EM3EV's 52V 30.6Ah triangle pack. They don't make ones this big anymore. When it first arrived it was over 32Ah, and only after a couple years of use did it decline to 30Ah. So it's very reliable and I'm still using it to this day.

It took about a month to come, but I didn't have to pay customs fees for it.
 
One thing about going big, is less strain on each cell. Something to remember if you do run more than 1000w.

32 ah running on 700w, with 1200w peaks should last a very very long time. What type of system wattage are you running?
 
It's a cyclone 3000 with standard controller so should be good for at least 2.2kW at 52v but I'm gentle with the throttle most of the time. I like to sit at 20mph to keep pace with mopeds but nothing more. Very upright seating position and ghost pedalling. Flat out and tucked in it's nearer 40mph so hardly straining it in day to day use.
 
No long term experience (only 15 months so far) but I've been very impressed with Grin's (ebikes.ca) 21700 52v battery (Panasonic NCR21700A cells in a 14S x 3P layout). It's a 14.5amp/hr or 750w capacity and I've comfortably pulled 600w (80%) from it on a number of occasions. It's rated at 40amp but I've never drawn more than 22amps continuous.

The specs don't seem to have changed other than the top voltage coming down by .1v (it now charges to 58.7 vs. 58.8 when new). It's only been balanced 4 times in the past 15 months ... the normal "full" charge for daily around town use is 80%. I used the Luna Advanced charger to manage the % charged and the rate. That's 2a normally to bring it up to 80%, but I use 5amps when I need to take the pack from 80 to 100% on the morning of a big 600w ride.

So no, I haven't abused or over stressed the battery at all. Given how it's aged so far I expect 5 years of use, perhaps more. Yes it is expensive but I figure both the additional insurance from quality components for when it's pushed hard, and the possibility of an extra year or two of use might make up for the difference in price compared to others.
 
I'm looking at a CYC X1 but I'm going to wait for a Gen 3 to be released in Q2 2022, according to the CYC main page in the mid-drive section. I don't understand how AMPs plays into everything, but it's likely my fault for not digging into amps.

I think, realistically, I'm going to use it to supplement my road bike power up large hills. Because it's a dedicated road bike with all the benefits there, I don't see myself pulling that much in terms of amperage.

BTW, thank you all for your replies. Getting some good numbers here. I was surprised to see ebikes.ca, as I didn't know their adoption rate was too high.
 
ilu said:
I have a 14S4P Shark battery with 35C cells from em3ev, and I have no complaints. I bought it two years ago and it's been in active use for a year and a half. I go through a cycle usually once or twice a week, charge to 90% and rarely discharge below 20%. The battery performs as new. Definitely get the charger that lets you charge to 90% for longevity!

Btw there is a better Android bluetooth app for em3ev batteries than the one they provide, you can find it in Google Play Store by the name "EM3EV BMS MONITOR".

Thank you, I was planning to buy a large battery and then do less strenous charges and discharges for longevity. Also appreciate the update on the BMS.
 
" I don't understand how AMPs plays into everything..."

Amp rating is important to avoid overly stressing the battery, which will surely damage it. What is the amp rating of your controller? Battery should at least cover that, with an additional 20% - 40% higher rating, for safety cushion.

IOW, a high amp controller can demand much more current from a low amp battery than it can safely deliver. If the battery's Battery Management System (BMS) is doing its job, it may shut down the battery, requiring either power cycling it/unplugging/replugging/disconnecting/reconnecting, depending on the system. Inconvenient, and not a good practice.

Constantly demanding near max. rated current from the battery causes faster battery degradation.

So tell us the controller specs and we will go from there.
 
I copy that EM3EV is a great source to buy batteries from. No experience with the others mentioned.
BUT, and this is a big BUT: The battery can always be only as good as the cells used. Even though/when the seller uses GENUINE BRAND cells, the cells themselves can be "better or worse".
Why do I say so:

Let's take the well known, Samsung 25R, an old but thrustworthy high power cell. I have seen packs 5y+ that still are well balanced, and show great performance.

Then let's take another genuine Samsung 30Q, the pink ones. A good mix of capacity and power. They can deliver some current and still have reasonable capacity. BUT: They are known to die pretty soon of unknown reason. They start to go down on voltage from one day to the other. This is very unpleasant as only some percent of the pack do so. So you have like 50 cells, and "only" 5 start to behave like that. But that means that the battery is a permanent balance state. And the performance is degraded as well. I HATE THAT CELL. Would I have known before I wouldn't have bought it, and maybe go for the LG H2 or even the old 25R cell.

Just my 2c
 
dogman dan said:
I really liked the Luna wolf battery I got a few years back.

I hit it with very high discharge rates using a big motor and higher power controller, running 2000w. After a year and a half of flawless service, it suddenly dropped in capacity, indicating that one cell had failed.

I did NOT take that as a sign of poor quality, I was testing it to destruction, deliberately running it hard and charging it fast.

One thing about going big, is less strain on each cell. Something to remember if you do run more than 1000w.

32 ah running on 700w, with 1200w peaks should last a very very long time.

No C'Mon dog, that is a fail period. A good " quality cells" pack should last longer than that. I been womping on my homemade stuff for three years and it started five years old.. at much more powa than your 2kW... Twice as much, with 4x as much peaks.. That battery is complicated, in my opinon. Reports of poor lugs and battery falling off? Have you ever had that problem?

.. chargin in the 20* cold.. from 3.0v ded to 4.25v superduper full... in the garage.. through the rain.. getting smashed by the front wheel...

Its still kickin. No offense, i know you have been here a long time more than me.. but that ? Two years on a 700$ battery? Nah. i got a 8 year old, 80$ recycled battery that does not blink.. ( Ok, well Im trying to hide it, but I think mine is finally getting old too, honestly)...

Hell I charged at 30A. Lol. Sometimes. For sure. Rest of the time at 8-10A. Still holds 100% original capacity ( 8 YEARS)( but is losing some of its "umphf")....

A good battery survives at least two years of significant, thoughtless, abuse. In my opinion. Should last more, the durable good that it is. Imagine if i really just used like 750w. This junkyardybattery 15Ah would last for ten years or more.

Anyway, its a tough question. I have seen quality control issues with all ( UPP, EM3EV, LUNA) from other users in the past... but the Grin pack. Grin pack? Never saw a Grin complaint. I have seen UPP packs burnt.. One in a Razor group. I have seen Luna packs fall off.. In a ebike group. I have seen EM3EV packs... drop a cell here or there.. but I guess out of all those I would go Em3EV honestly. It is a China pack still, but economical.
 
ilu said:
I have a 14S4P Shark battery with 35C cells from em3ev, and I have

What cell is that, this "35C cell" you refer to? Thankyou for the reply.
 
DogDipstick said:
ilu said:
I have a 14S4P Shark battery with 35C cells from em3ev, and I have

What cell is that, this "35C cell" you refer to? Thankyou for the reply.

It's an error, Samsung 35E cells are what I meant.
 
dogman dan said:
I really liked the Luna wolf battery I got a few years back. It was strong, with low sag under heavy loads.

Other batteries with similar cell chemistry had lasted me at most 2 years before they got very weak. So 18 months after trying to kill it as quick as possible was quite good!

I've got one of the clear potted ones. Sat on the bench for about 6 months, and was installed about a year ago, so about the same vintage. I figured for the first 100 charge cycles I would track data for SOH under varying load & charge conditions to look for trends.

Battery current is limited to 35A.
Watt outputs; average about 250, 5 minute sustained 800, 1 minute sustained 1200, peak 1800.
Watt-hours/mile ~8-15
3A Charge rate, mostly to 80%, sometimes to 90%.

At the 10th charge cycle peak SOH was determined as 100%.
At the 100th charge cycle SOH data indicated as 99.2%, just passed a week ago.

It gets hot in the desert and little use during the heat. I keep the batteries about 50% when temps go above 100°.
 
DogDipstick said:
No C'Mon dog, that is a fail period. A good " quality cells" pack should last longer than that.

They are complicated, it easy to see a few QC errors potentially slip through. I've used my FLIR camera to image during hard charge/discharge and no hot spots were detected. I doubt LUNA does that with each one.

So far mine has done really well. Don't recall the cells, but they're the higher capacity rather than higher C rate.

I built a an aluminum locking rack mount with thin SS safety straps (total mount wt = 377 grams) around the battery and hang it under the boom of a Scorpion FS26 trike. Won't trust the magnet for sure.

This battery replaced a 16S1P LiFePO4 pack with a 50A Continuous BMS. Very little sag at full punch. The Wolf goes from 55V to 51.5V at full punch (1800 watts). May have to extend the CA3 to capture voltage/current samples to track sag, I suspect thats a heavy hitter to battery life.
 
99t4 said:
" I don't understand how AMPs plays into everything..."

Amp rating is important to avoid overly stressing the battery, which will surely damage it. What is the amp rating of your controller? Battery should at least cover that, with an additional 20% - 40% higher rating, for safety cushion.

IOW, a high amp controller can demand much more current from a low amp battery than it can safely deliver. If the battery's Battery Management System (BMS) is doing its job, it may shut down the battery, requiring either power cycling it/unplugging/replugging/disconnecting/reconnecting, depending on the system. Inconvenient, and not a good practice.

Constantly demanding near max. rated current from the battery causes faster battery degradation.

So tell us the controller specs and we will go from there.

Sorry for the delay.

Controller would be the BAC855 which comes with the CYC X1 Pro. Looks like the nominal amperage is ~70 and the peak is ~90, which I feel is very sufficient. Based on what you told me, I should find a battery that can handle 100 amps?

https://www.acceleratedsystems.com/products/electric-motor-controllers/bac855

EDIT: sorry I don't want you to spoon feed me something that I should be researching. I'm looking up most batteries and I'm seeing amps around 30-40. I have a feeling the BAC855 is a powerful little controller but I think it needs to be limited by the user, aka me, to avoid overstressing. For what it's worth, based on my intent, I am looking for capacity rather than power.
 
FuzzyWuzzy said:
Sorry for the delay.

Controller would be the BAC855 which comes with the CYC X1 Pro. Looks like the nominal amperage is ~70 and the peak is ~90, which I feel is very sufficient. Based on what you told me, I should find a battery that can handle 100 amps?

https://www.acceleratedsystems.com/products/electric-motor-controllers/bac855

EDIT: sorry I don't want you to spoon feed me something that I should be researching. I'm looking up most batteries and I'm seeing amps around 30-40. I have a feeling the BAC855 is a powerful little controller but I think it needs to be limited by the user, aka me, to avoid overstressing. For what it's worth, based on my intent, I am looking for capacity rather than power.

I think at this point, knowing what kind of space you have on the bike you're building has for mounting/carrying a battery, and what type of riding and range you are contemplating, as well as your risk tolerance.

For instance, you could run three of these in series and have plenty of amp (rated 240A, 480A peak, but probably best to run at 120-ish), but you inherit the risk of using lipos.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-high-capacity-battery-20000mah-6s-12c-drone-lipo-pack-xt90.html?queryID=397ff39dea565f887c4669119c5dcd1c&objectID=78412&indexName=hbk_live_products_analytics
 
If some of you have a feedback concerning the durability of LIGO Grin batteries, I'm interested.
 
RC hobby batteries are not for everyone of course, but my experience with turnigy lipos is that they will run for years.
But I use them very conservatively and follow the safety rules. I have always preferred the modular approach so you can configure a pack to suit various requirements in terms of capacity and voltage, while always keeping average continuous disharge very low. I like the way I can monitor their health and performance rather than leaving it to a bms. I also charge very very slowly. The only failures i've had are when I have unavoidably left in storage too long (sometimes over a year) without a regular maintenance cycle. Any failed or even slightly weak cell after storage and its right off to the recyclers for these. Couple times over 10 years I had to ask for a credit for bad cells upon delivery.
 
Hi,

I have been checking their website, EM3EV seems to be a serious manufacturer.
Individual cell fuse on most of their batteries appears also as a good guaranty for safety.
Do you agree ?

Capture d'écran 2023-08-30 151203.jpg

Has anyone experiences to share with EM3EV batteries ?
 
Last edited:
Fuzzy wuzzy I bought a cyc pro 1 Gen 2 with the ASI BAC 855 Bluetooth controller. It's a non-working piece of s*** that blocked up I bought it when they first put them out 2 years ago it only works for a few minutes and would finally throw everything at the rear wheel maybe breaking the clogs in my cassette. After 2 years of psych telling me all different things to try and use and how to put out and skip the display nothing worked. They offered me 20% off their new X6 controller a couple more firm and close to nasty degrading letters they finally decided to upgrade me for $60 so $30 shipping for $90 they might show me a working controller after 2 years of this bike has been on the shelf. This was talk to text I'll try and clean it up.
The new controller should be in the mail.
So I can't tell you if I like it or not as it's never worked $1,200 sitting on my Kona mountain bike taking up space
 
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