Motor decision for long john cargo bike w/ steep hills

Nightdiver13

10 mW
Joined
Mar 19, 2019
Messages
27
TL;DR - 400lbs gross vehicle weight, 25% hill, long john bike. TSDZ2, BBSHD, BBS02, or hub motor?

For the last couple of years I've been planning on adding a motor system to my long john, but I've got complete analysis paralysis and could use some help from folks who have first hand experience with some of the options that are out there. Every time I'm about to pull the trigger I second guess it and go back to the research.

My bike is a long john with 26" rear and 20" front. Typical rides will involve a total vehicle weight of about 400lbs, carrying two kids and myself over various terrain including a 200m long, 25% hill and many other less steep (but longer) hills. I currently own a longtail with Bosch Cargo motor (85Nm) geared to about 26" on the low end. With that bike and same load, I can just barely get up the 25% hill by grinding it out and/or doing a bit of zig-zagging. With the long-john geared to 17" on the low end I can crawl up that hill, but it is brutal.

I've owned other Bosch system bikes so have lots of experience on what a pedal assist torque sensing system feels like. I've used a couple of Bafang BBS02 bikes, but that was a while ago and I don't recall being particularly impressed with the experience. But I know that how you configure those motors can have a big impact on ride quality. I've never used a hub motor bike so have no frame of reference for that.

My research has focused on the TSDZ2, BBSHD, BBS02, and a couple of front hub motors with slower winds to take advantage of the 20" front wheel. My budget for the motor system, not including battery, is about $700 which rules out some things like the Grin All-Axle. I can't really imagine ever wanting to use throttle, and the riding experience is important to me. But I'm also open to new things.

TSDZ2 on paper is perfect. Torque sensing, claimed 100Nm of torque for the 750W version, relatively cheap and light. But it sounds like a total gamble in terms of reliability. So many different and common issues with that motor, not to mention the Bafang lawsuit which leaves it in a weird place.

BBSHD and BBS02 next runners up. Most recommend the BBSHD as soon as cargo and hills is mentioned, but I'm never sure how folks use the motor. Do they typically just go full throttle with minimal pedal input and/or gear shifting? As I plan to ride the bike in a typical bike fashion, is the BBSHD still required, or is the BBS02 plenty? The specs put the BBS02 at 120Nm of torque which is massive already.

Down side to all of these mid-drives is the extra wide (and sometimes offset) Q-factor, and of course the extra wear on the drivetrain, which I'm not too bothered about. Often certain hubs get recommended, but generally not with the load and hill I'm dealing with. DD hub regen sounds nice on paper too since I have a long descent and it sounds cool to get that hub braking effect.

Since I've never used a hub motor (and can't test any on my bike) I never know how to interpret what people claim about them, especially since I'll read just as many folks saying that they just aren't up to it and stick with mid-drives. I've run the Grin simulator and some of the motors seem to pass the test, but I'm skeptical about the user experience. It's not enough to just not fail from overheating.

So, any help is appreciated. I'm sick of thinking about this and just want to move forward. But at the same time don't want to spend the time and money on a system that I'll either hate using, or won't be up to snuff, and want to swap out for something else.

Thanks!
 
dd leaf 1500 is listed as 5t only in the motor simulator, its not available in the trip simulator
www.ebikes.ca
You could use the mxus motors 4506 means 45H lam thickness, and 06 is turns. Its to much motor but it would be good to see the different between a 3t mxus and a 6t and kind of relate that to the Leaf 5t.

TDSZ - no, your right reliability
BBS02 - no, why bother just get the BBSHD
BBSHD - solid choice
Cyclone-TW - is a choice for high power, but good to look at.
Geared MAC - Yeah, solid choice
DD, Leaf 1500 and MXUS/QS 3kw+

52v 40a with your 400lbs and 200m of 25%, need to get your gradients tallied there sir. % grade for how long in miles or km or yards or meters. Hills and weight, be precise.

How much effort you want to put into pedaling?

Do you want pas?

Yes I did read it twice, but multitasking. Listed good info
 
Do you have room in the frame to put a "stokemonkey style" system there? It would normally drive the left hand side of the cranks (putting a chainring on that side), go thru the BB shaft to the shiftable chainring drivetrain, then back to the wheel, so it would still drive thru the whole shiftable drivetrain gear range.

Normally, because it drives thru the BB itself, you can't use any normal PAS control methods because they would be driven by the motor as well as by you, so once started you couldn't control it anymore.

But there is another version of the system once made called the Urban Commuter, that put the motor past the cranks, so the crank chain drives the motor/freewheel whcih then drives the rear wheel thru it's shiftable gears...and the motor does this too, but doesn't drive the cranks.

Boht of these systems use a hubmotor (to keep them narrow) in a mount bolted / clamped to the bike frame. If you have the space, you can use a pretty big hubmotor (for high torque) and still be able to shift gears on the motor (which you can't do when the motor is in the wheel).

I don't think the mounts for either are still made, so you would have to make one or have one made for you, along with whatever clamps are needed to secure it to your frame, so it's a fair bit of DIY. If I ever get a mount like that and a good peerless differential (or two of the mounts, one for each rear wheel) I'd like to build a new version of the SB Cruiser heavy cargo trike to use this system.
 
For hubmotors in the wheel, I would not use the MXUS motors; I've had two of the 45H (4503 and 4504) and both have had axle problems, one had winding problems (error in manufacture leading to damaged winding insulation), etc. Note also that the 450x motors, while named "3kw" motors, could really only handle that in a 20" wheel or smaller without overheating, based on other people's results and info in the big thread for them.

My own experiences don't include running them at high power levels for very long, and I am runnign them in small wheels (20" bike rims with 16" moped tires for a 22"-ish actual size). But I am riding a trike that wieghs a few hundred pounds, plus me, and I regularly carry cargo of up to a couple hundred pounds or more (and can haul a lot more on a trailer).

QSmotors makes better-engineered stuff from what I ahve seen and held in my hands. The only broken-axle one Iv'e seen so far used several times the power level the motor was rated for *and* didn't have it completely secured in the dropouts, so it sheared both axle ends off. The ones I've held in my hands (including the broken one) are QS205 50H, which are the "equivalent" of the MXUS 45H, but capable of much higher power--they could reliably do *more* than rated, where the MXUS is probably doing good to even make it's rating at all. :/



WHatever hubmotor you get, you would want the slowest winding possible that still meets your speed needs, if you need to crawl up a hill you need to do it at the speed the motor is made for, or you will probably overheat it (at the least you'll waste a lot of power). That means the motor won't go faster than that when on the flats (not by much, anyway), so if you need higher speeds on the flats and higher torque on the hills you'd need a middrive, or else a really big hubmotor with a really big controller and a really big and very capable battery, so the hubmotor could handle the heat build up when used inefficiently on the hills, but still be wound fast enough to go the higher flat-ground speeds.

A hubmotor will take a lot more power to startup from a stop, especially on a hill or slope, than a properly-gearshifted middrive would, so you need a much bigger controller and battery for them than the middrive.
 
I haven't used the BBSxx or TSDZ systems, so can't comment on those.


With any system not built into the BB (or driving thru it), you have a bunch of PAS control options, including cadence-sensing and torque-sensing. If you don't find a controller that does things the way you want and also has the other qualities you need, you can use any controller that has a throttle-only mode and then use the Cycle Analyst v3.x for your PAS/etc control to generate a throttle signal based on your inputs and settings. (the CA doesn't have to be visible if you don't like it's looks).

If y ou don't mind using just a throttle, you have more options with less setup time.

I use the CA to read a cadence sensor to control the SB Cruiser, but have a throttle for the times I can't start it up from a stop. There's a new firmware version that supports torque sensors from a stop (didn't do that before), I intend to try that when I get a chance.


Note that with dual hubmotors I've gotten better startup from a stop performance (which also means better hill climbing performance, though almost all my riding is on flat roads here, I *have* easily gone up the hill on 7th street up to the top where it passes The Pointe around North Mountain here in Phoenix. I don't know what the slope is, but it's fairly steep. I couldn't ride up it on a pedal-only bike (back when I was still able to ride those)). SB Cruiser will go up that hill at 20mph (it's CA-limited max speed) easy, with just me in it (plus a 40pound spare battery I was carrying the time I did it).

An advantage is it's like having a motor twice as wide/torquey than just one of them, a disadvantage is it's more expensive and heavier than just one (and rquires two controllers). For me, the redundancy of the second motor is worth all that; for you it may be better to use just one larger motor.
 
My vote would be mid drive, for the multiple gears available (as required). A mid drive in granny gear is the most power available anywhere and would allow you to climb a wall. Geared hubs have one gear ratio, about 5:1, and there is no guarantee that 5:1 (even at 1000w) will be adequate for your load/gradient. Direct drive, unless you have huge battery and controller capacity, are gutless when it comes to climbing and accelerating from a stop.

My choice of motor would be the BBSHD for it's rock solid reputation.

Set up properly, riding the bike with BBSxx installed will be nearly identical to riding without a conversion.
 
calab said:
52v 40a with your 400lbs and 200m of 25%, need to get your gradients tallied there sir. % grade for how long in miles or km or yards or meters. Hills and weight, be precise.

How much effort you want to put into pedaling?

Do you want pas?

Yes I did read it twice, but multitasking. Listed good info

Not sure what you mean about being precise, unless this was meant as a joke and I missed it. The 200m is meters, 25% is the grade, 400lbs is the absolute max gross vehicle weight I imagine having.

I have no issues with putting pedaling effort into the bike and would hugely prefer PAS. If I could get the closest approximation to my current Bosch setup, that would be great. On the Bosch system, I rarely use anything above "Tour" (assist level 2), to give an idea of how I prefer to cycle. But perhaps cadence style of Bafang wouldn't be the end of the world—just no recent experience to confirm that.
 
[/quote]

I have no issues with putting pedaling effort into the bike and would hugely prefer PAS If I could get the closest approximation to my current Bosch setup, that would be great. On the Bosch system, I rarely use anything above "Tour" (assist level 2), to give an idea of how I prefer to cycle. But perhaps cadence style of Bafang wouldn't be the end of the world—just no recent experience to confirm that.
[/quote]

On the bold, not following. The Bafang mids all have PAS (Pedal Assist System). Is it possible you meant torque sensing PAS?
 
Thanks for all the feedback Amberwolf. I should have mentioned that ideally I'd also like the simplest and cleanest looking install possible, so definitely not interested in doing fabrication or big amounts of DIY beyond the basic install. I had ruled out Stokemonkey early on in the process partially for the looks and bracketing issues. But there was some other thing that I can't recall at the moment that was a deal breaker. Maybe something about pedaling being out of your control?

Your feedback on the hub motors echoes a lot of what I read and I think perhaps the key feature is the speed range. I don't require speeds on the flats above 20mph, but I would need to go back to the simulators to check things as I recall that being an issue with most of the motors that were able to tackle the hills at all. The max speed in the 20" wheel was fairly low if I remember.

amberwolf said:
A hubmotor will take a lot more power to startup from a stop, especially on a hill or slope, than a properly-gearshifted middrive would, so you need a much bigger controller and battery for them than the middrive.

Does this apply even if I plan to always be in the appropriate gear and pedaling? Or is it purely a function of the mechanics of hub motors that the lower the RPM, the more power is needed to provide similar torque levels?

The dual motor thing is fascinating, but not for me I think. Just more faff than I want to deal with, and once you add in the CA3 and all the other relevant stuff goes well over my budget. But good suggestion for sure.
 
AHicks said:
Set up properly, riding the bike with BBSxx installed will be nearly identical to riding without a conversion.

Well this is part of why I've waffled so much because some folks say this, but most folks say that it feels very different (artificial) and that only torque systems like TSDZ2 feel like a natural bike.

Does the BBS02 not have as good of a reputation? I know that they get thrashed by folks who should have put a BBSHD on there in the first place. But with 120Nm of torque, I assumed that it would already be more motor than I need. Is there something else going on inside of them that makes them less reliable?
 
AHicks said:
On the bold, not following. The Bafang mids all have PAS (Pedal Assist System). Is it possible you meant torque sensing PAS?

No, just PAS. The person I replied to asked if I wanted PAS. Of course I would prefer torque sensing if possible, but outside of the TSDZ2, I don't know of any options that meet the rest of my criteria.
 
Clearly the BBSHD has more power than the BBS02 (the most available anywhere). The bigger difference is that the BBSHD controller is much sturdier, able to handle higher wattage/more amps without failure.

"Well this is part of why I've waffled so much because some folks say this, but most folks say that it feels very different (artificial) and that only torque systems like TSDZ2 feel like a natural bike."


I can see where they might say "artificial" if it's assumed the PAS would be similar to the mickey mouse controllers that most often come on geared hub equipped bikes (speed based PAS), or possibly because the bike picked up 20lbs of weight due to the conversion. Beyond that, more details would be required to comment further. The bike should coast unpowered as easily as it did prior to the conversion.

Further, and this potentially gets into a giant rabbit hole, is the fact that the BBSxx are easily user programmable as long as they are UART based. Things like the amount of power/acceleration available on initial startup, max amperage available to the motor at wide open throttle are just a few parameters, among MANY more that will let you customize the "feel" of the bike.
 
Nightdiver13 said:
So, any help is appreciated. I'm sick of thinking about this and just want to move forward. But at the same time don't want to spend the time and money on a system that I'll either hate using, or won't be up to snuff, and want to swap out for something else.

Thanks!

I'd suggest the FH212 dd hub in the front wheel. Why? Because it did it: long john, 200kg weight and swiss mountains. The bike just flies uphill, unbelievable. Ferrofluid helps keeping it cool, but you can do without. Placing the battery under the cargo space as close as possible to the front wheel helps with traction. I even upgraded the front fork to one with suspension, which makes the road way less bumpy. Ony real issue were torque arms: you need really tough one for that load and most aluminium suspension forks have dropouts that don't allow for classic style tas. So I designed them myself: (cad file for lasering at the bottom of the post)

front_ta.jpg

Best thing about the front dd hub is not regen, but motor braking. Without it, you'll end up constantly changing your brake pads, like I did before ( cargo + steep hills = brake pad killer). Now I basically did not touch the pads since I mounted the FH212 2 years ago! Also, it feels great to have a motor not interfering with the pedaling. That s the reason I'm selling all my mid drives. Btw for cargo I recommend an IGH hub - especially the new shimano 5 sp heavy duty: you're knees will be very thankful during startups!

I can post some pics of the box too if you want. Made it for my 2 (now already big) girls and they love it. Not that they also voted in favors of the front hub: the smooth regen braking and very smooth acceleration is way better than the bbs style on/off. The big one now always wants to know how much power we regained after a mountain tour :D

My 2 cents about the mid drives you mentioned: the 02 beats the hd hands down when it comes to efficiency, it's the better designed one in my opinion. Just google justin's post about it. The tsdz2 is too weak for cargo and steep hills. Had one and swapped it for an 02. But as said: now I'm fully moving to hubs.

You're right about PAS: I had a torque sensor first and it SUCKS for cargo. You have to pedal like crazy and constantly change assist levels as soon as you reach the first slope. Only advantage difficult to beat is startup: way better with a tq sensor than pas.
 
qwerkus said:
I'd suggest the FH212 dd hub in the front wheel. Why? Because it did it: long john, 200kg weight and swiss mountains. The bike just flies uphill, unbelievable. Ferrofluid helps keeping it cool, but you can do without. Placing the battery under the cargo space as close as possible to the front wheel helps with traction. I even upgraded the front fork to one with suspension, which makes the road way less bumpy. Ony real issue were torque arms: you need really tough one for that load and most aluminium suspension forks have dropouts that don't allow for classic style tas.

What is the steepest grade you climb with your bike? I've noticed on the simulators that the grade to overheating relationship isn't linear. There is a much longer 15% grade that I frequently climb, and several hubs can handle it without too much bother. Similarly, my Bosch bike cruises easily up it. But once it starts getting closer to 20%, and especially beyond 20%, things drop dramatically, particularly for the hubs.

Do you have some PAS sensor integrated with that or do you operate it only via throttle? I had been looking at the FH212, but after all the necessary parts, it was over my budget, at least from Grin. Not sure where else to purchase from. Thanks for the detailed feedback though. Very similar bike and use scenario it seems.
 
Nightdiver13 said:
Thanks for all the feedback Amberwolf. I should have mentioned that ideally I'd also like the simplest and cleanest looking install possible, so definitely not interested in doing fabrication or big amounts of DIY beyond the basic install. I had ruled out Stokemonkey early on in the process partially for the looks and bracketing issues. But there was some other thing that I can't recall at the moment that was a deal breaker. Maybe something about pedaling being out of your control?
Probably; this is the major problem people complain about any stoker-type system, where the stoker (motor or other person) feeds the captain's cranks, and either doesn't stay in sync with the captain's cadence or pushes harder than the captain, forcing the captain's cranks against their feet.

Your feedback on the hub motors echoes a lot of what I read and I think perhaps the key feature is the speed range. I don't require speeds on the flats above 20mph, but I would need to go back to the simulators to check things as I recall that being an issue with most of the motors that were able to tackle the hills at all. The max speed in the 20" wheel was fairly low if I remember.

Keep in mind that there are very few hubmotors (and few winding variations of the ones that *are* there) actually modelled in the simulator, so you'd need to know the specifics the custom-motor option requires, for motors taht are not in it, to simulate them accurately. It does at least let you get some idea of how one type of motor performs vs the others, without doing custom settings, however, and the results you get do basically apply to other similar systems.

amberwolf said:
A hubmotor will take a lot more power to startup from a stop, especially on a hill or slope, than a properly-gearshifted middrive would, so you need a much bigger controller and battery for them than the middrive.

Does this apply even if I plan to always be in the appropriate gear and pedaling? Or is it purely a function of the mechanics of hub motors that the lower the RPM, the more power is needed to provide similar torque levels?
Since the hubmotor in the wheel cannot change it's gearing, then if you have one wound for higher speeds, it will be in it's inefficient zone longer and more often (or always) if you are running at low speeds a lot or nearly all the time. If it is also at high loads at the same time, it's wasting a lot of power as heat, too.

If the hubmotor in the wheel is wound for a low enough speed to be efficient at the speeds you're going, then this isn't an issue...but that may mean you can't use it at higher speeds you might also need.

If you have enough power to go the higher speed while at the worst-case load with the faster-wound motor, this isn't a problem, because you'll still be in the efficient speed range.

You can see how this works in the simulator, using any of the motors that have various winding versions to simulate, especially the larger DD motors (MXUS 45H, 450x, for instance).

When you're on the flats it's not much of an issue, because you only see high load during acceleration, which doesn't take much time unless you have to do it over and over again (like in traffic, like my own usage case). But on hills, it becomes a pretty big issue, bigger the steeper and longer they are, and the slower you have to go up them at full throttle vs the designed speed of the system (vs full throttle on the flats).


The dual motor thing is fascinating, but not for me I think. Just more faff than I want to deal with, and once you add in the CA3 and all the other relevant stuff goes well over my budget. But good suggestion for sure.
You don't require the CA3...but it's very useful for configuring PAS nearly any way you might want it to work. ;) There *are* controllers that work directly from the Erider torque-sensor BB, and the KT controllers (and some others) have open-source firmware you can install on them that can similarly do this sort of thing.

Dual motors was more of a comparison idea to cover as many base ideas as possible, than a suggestion to implement, just kind of bringing it up in case you hadn't thought about it at all.
 
I'm late to this thread, but I recommend buying a BBSHD while they are still being produced. 52V battery.

The stock sprocket has 46 teeth, so get something with fewer teeth. I believe there are 30T-36T sprockets and a 2-piece chainring/spider set with 40T (steel teeth/aluminum spider)
 
spinningmagnets said:
I'm late to this thread, but I recommend buying a BBSHD while they are still being produced. 52V battery.

The stock sprocket has 46 teeth, so get something with fewer teeth. I believe there are 30T-36T sprockets and a 2-piece chainring/spider set with 40T (steel teeth/aluminum spider)

Sub-40 tooth options for BBSHD have a super wide chainline that will screw up the low gears needed in this case. 42T Bafang or 40T Lekkie/Luna are the way to go.

I'd pair one of those with a Microshift Acolyte 8 speed system, with 11-46 cassette. If 40/46 gears with 1500W of motor power plus pedal power don't get you up the hill, it's time to move off of Sugarloaf Mountain to an easier neighborhood.
 
Nightdiver13 said:
What is the steepest grade you climb with your bike? I've noticed on the simulators that the grade to overheating relationship isn't linear. There is a much longer 15% grade that I frequently climb, and several hubs can handle it without too much bother. Similarly, my Bosch bike cruises easily up it. But once it starts getting closer to 20%, and especially beyond 20%, things drop dramatically, particularly for the hubs.

Do you have some PAS sensor integrated with that or do you operate it only via throttle? I had been looking at the FH212, but after all the necessary parts, it was over my budget, at least from Grin. Not sure where else to purchase from. Thanks for the detailed feedback though. Very similar bike and use scenario it seems.

Difficult to say. Right at the end of the street, there is a slope or nearly 22% which I climb with that cargo about once a week, but its only about 200m distance. Also when I reach that track, I usually have momentum so it's no big deal. If for whatever reason you get stuck there, it's another story to startup again and you need an insane amount of power just to get things moving again. The mountain next to where I live has a few steep slope, but overall the 16km it takes to climb up average about 8-10%, which is what I would recommend for that motor and that weight.

On tours with the girls, it happened more than once that we'd get stuck, and they would have to walk for a few hundred meters before starting again, but for us, its part of the fun. Note that loose ground is a much bigger issue in my opinion than steepness, and if I don't feel 100% comfy with the road, I usually tell them to step out. Problem are frigging suvs racing by: you have to be able to quickly get out of the way, which usually mean sliding and crashing on loose ground.

My setup is pas + cav3 and phaserunner. I got it back in the days when they where a lot cheaper. Now I would recommend a flispky vesc + fh212. The controller costs only 100$ shipped and is ok. The most expensive part on my bike by far is the custom made double battery under the loading box. There are 156 samsung 35E cells there ! PM me if you need details.
 
qwerkus said:
Difficult to say. Right at the end of the street, there is a slope or nearly 22% which I climb with that cargo about once a week, but its only about 200m distance. Also when I reach that track, I usually have momentum so it's no big deal. If for whatever reason you get stuck there, it's another story to startup again and you need an insane amount of power just to get things moving again. The mountain next to where I live has a few steep slope, but overall the 16km it takes to climb up average about 8-10%, which is what I would recommend for that motor and that weight.

On tours with the girls, it happened more than once that we'd get stuck, and they would have to walk for a few hundred meters before starting again, but for us, its part of the fun. Note that loose ground is a much bigger issue in my opinion than steepness, and if I don't feel 100% comfy with the road, I usually tell them to step out. Problem are frigging suvs racing by: you have to be able to quickly get out of the way, which usually mean sliding and crashing on loose ground.

My setup is pas + cav3 and phaserunner. I got it back in the days when they where a lot cheaper. Now I would recommend a flispky vesc + fh212. The controller costs only 100$ shipped and is ok. The most expensive part on my bike by far is the custom made double battery under the loading box. There are 156 samsung 35E cells there ! PM me if you need details.

Thanks again for the details. Your solution does sound very attractive, but I'm still hesitant since there are times when we don't have the ability to approach some grades with speed and it sounds like being able to gear down with a mid-drive might be needed.
 
Chalo said:
Sub-40 tooth options for BBSHD have a super wide chainline that will screw up the low gears needed in this case. 42T Bafang or 40T Lekkie/Luna are the way to go.

I'd pair one of those with a Microshift Acolyte 8 speed system, with 11-46 cassette. If 40/46 gears with 1500W of motor power plus pedal power don't get you up the hill, it's time to move off of Sugarloaf Mountain to an easier neighborhood.

I have my drivetrain sorted already and not overly worried about chainline since I have long chainstays and will be running an IGH. Although I'll still be trying to get it as straight as possible as long as the gear combos work out. Wish the Bafang dealers would provide chainline figures instead of their backasswards "offsets".

I'm not worried about power from either Bafang option. That concern was for the hub options and how they would compare. For the Bafangs, I'm mostly just ignorant about how the cadence based PAS feels and if it makes a big deal for someone who is used to a torque PAS and enjoys the pedaling experience.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm not sure how much closer I am to a decision though since I got a microcosm of the opinions I've been reading for the past couple of years. At least I think this has convinced me to rule out the TSDZ2 for sure. Leaning towards the Bafangs, although still not clear on if the HD is truly necessary. The extra cost and weight isn't a huge deal, but at the same time, if it isn't needed, then I wouldn't bother with it.
 
Nightdiver13 said:
Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm not sure how much closer I am to a decision though since I got a microcosm of the opinions I've been reading for the past couple of years. At least I think this has convinced me to rule out the TSDZ2 for sure. Leaning towards the Bafangs, although still not clear on if the HD is truly necessary. The extra cost and weight isn't a huge deal, but at the same time, if it isn't needed, then I wouldn't bother with it.

Beware that you'll absolutely need a throttle: starting again after an emergency stop with 200kg cargo on a steep hill is no joke, whether you use a mid drive or a hub. Both the 02 and the hd use a basic pas system requiring you to pedal to start the motor; if you have a derailleur, there is no way to gear down without the rear wheel spinning, so you're basically screwed. That's why my first setup was 02 + afline 8 igh, but the geared hub could not handle the load...
The only clean motor startup without a throttle lever is a torque sensor.
 
Nightdiver13 said:
I have my drivetrain sorted already and not overly worried about chainline since I have long chainstays and will be running an IGH.

Well, you should be worried about it, because gearhubs have limited chainline adjustment (mainly flipping the sprocket one way or the other) and will be very unhappy if the chainline isn't pretty darn good. Derailleur systems are somewhat tolerant of bad chainline, up to a point, but single speed chain stages are not.

Also, if you set up your BBSHD with suitably low wall-crawling gears, you're likely to exceed your hub's rated input torque and damage it, so be careful of that.
 
Chalo said:
Nightdiver13 said:
I have my drivetrain sorted already and not overly worried about chainline since I have long chainstays and will be running an IGH.

Well, you should be worried about it, because gearhubs have limited chainline adjustment (mainly flipping the sprocket one way or the other) and will be very unhappy if the chainline isn't pretty darn good. Derailleur systems are somewhat tolerant of bad chainline, up to a point, but single speed chain stages are not.

Also, if you set up your BBSHD with suitably low wall-crawling gears, you're likely to exceed your hub's rated input torque and damage it, so be careful of that.

THIS! Double this! Even the 02 at full power easily breaks the ratchet dogs of IGHs. So listen to Chalo! Beside maybe the old sachs 5sp tandem hub and 3 speed hubs, ighs are NOT meant for high power and not for cargo.
 
Chalo said:
Well, you should be worried about it, because gearhubs have limited chainline adjustment (mainly flipping the sprocket one way or the other) and will be very unhappy if the chainline isn't pretty darn good. Derailleur systems are somewhat tolerant of bad chainline, up to a point, but single speed chain stages are not.

Also, if you set up your BBSHD with suitably low wall-crawling gears, you're likely to exceed your hub's rated input torque and damage it, so be careful of that.

What I mean is that I know what my chainline requirements are, and what the resulting chainlines are from the various motor chainrings, so I'm not worried about it. Also, I'm very aware of my IGH torque limitations and gear ratio needs. I'm not experienced with the motors I've been asking about, but I'm plenty experienced with bicycle drivetrains and using them for cargo applications.
 
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