Advice - Affordable Hill climber Electric bike Kit

I'm converting to a bike as my main car.
I will be going up quite steep hills daily - in fact possibly a climb of a few thousand feet minimum daily.
Can anyone give some good advice as to where to find an affordable and good conversion kit that would handle this with ease - make it all the way with no need for me to pedal at all going up? (a sign to me it's a good system - one that can make it the full 5000 foot plus climb).
I know it will still be expensive, but would like it closer to $1000 than $2000. Less even better!

The bike she will be using is a Montague Folding bike, I'll attach a pic. (I'm selling it to her).

I have a steel fork that is wide enough for the big hub motors that I will include, so she has that option. The current fork on the bike is an aluminum RST suspension fork, and it's quite narrow, I think only the small motors would fit. The drivetrain has an 8 speed cassette on the rear - in case a rear motor is used - that might be an issue?

I told her she will want a geared motor for the hill climbing. She says top speed doesn't matter so much (she's not like you speed demons!) 25mph max would be more than enough I think. Is there a 1000w geared motor with serious torque for climbing steep grades while pulling a trailer?

Will she want regen for going down the mountain? I think the bigger issue is having enough battery to get to the top. I'm a little worried now that she said 5,000 feet elevation gain.... if pulling a trailer of groceries, that's some SERIOUS watt-hours needed. Anyone want to do some calcs on that?

I'll give it a go: assuming 280lbs total of rider, bike, and groceries (high side, although I don't know how much she weighs):

It will take 1400watts to go 20mph up a 10% grade, which will draw about 1700watts from the batteries! ....maybe she will have to keep it at 12-15mph on the steep grades.....

But either way, for a 5,000 foot climb at 10% and 20mph, that takes up:
5000/528 = about 10 miles ..... and at 20mph that will take 30 minutes. So 1700watts * 0.5 = Battery will need to hold 850 watt hours to 80% or roughly 1050watt hours needed.

Any battery recommendations, and keep in mind she won't be wiring up Lipo packs like you guys can. This needs to be pretty much turn-key.

Thanks guys.

lauradawn said:

I'm converting to a bike as my main car.
I will be going up quite steep hills daily - in fact possibly a climb of a few thousand feet minimum daily.
Can anyone give some good advice as to where to find an affordable and good conversion kit that would handle this with ease - make it all the way with no need for me to pedal at all going up? (a sign to me it's a good system - one that can make it the full 5000 foot plus climb).
I know it will still be expensive, but would like it closer to $1000 than $2000. Less even better!

Click to expand...

You'll need gearing to get the most efficiency out of your motor. Doing this, and you can reduce the amount of battery that you'll need to make the climb. For ready made kits, I'd suggest a cyclone. If you think you're upto the mechanical challenge, you can implement your own chain/belt drive using an external motor such as an RC motor or an Agni, Etek, Mac or Perm.

Is there a particular speed that you desire? Can you give a specific distance? Can you give some specific percentage grades? How heavy do you intend your bike + gear + you to be?

Just as a bit of advice, 5000 ft. of elevation change will entail a lot of energy and battery capacity. With a lot of battery capacity comes a lot of cost. It might make more economic sense to go with a motorcycle, especially since they can go quite a bit faster up hills than "typical" ebike kits and your trip times could be cut drastically, depending on your intended travel distance.

Assuming 300 pounds of total weight, the minimum potential energy to overcome would be...

mass * gravitational constant * height =
136 kg * 9.8 * 1524 meters = 564 watt-hours.

If you're going an average of, say, 15 mph... you have about an estimated 15 watthour / mile due to wind losses, rolling resistance, motor cogging, etc.

So, assuming this is over, say, 10 miles, you have 564 watthour + 15 * 10 = 714 watt-hour expended.

If over 20 miles, you have 564 + 15*20 = 864 watthour expended.

But.... how much do you need from your batteries? That's going to be the above figures divided by the motor system's efficiency. At 80%, you could expect 864/.8 = 1080 watt-hours.

Now, you introduce a certain safety margin that takes into account things you didn't take into account (Such as windy days and rolling hills). I'd say, 50% is a good estimate which would also help with battery longevity. So, now you're at 1080 * 1.5 = 1620 watt-hours. At 50 cents per watthour, you're looking at 1620 * .5 = $810 alone. If you want a ready battery solution such as a 60V 30Ah ping, I believe that runs for $1500 (With shipping).

Now you have the motor and other costs. I'd estimate $200-300 on the resourceful/low side assuming you have a bike available and $1000 on the high "easily available" side (Or if you buy retail bikes, I'd expect something like... $6000 since they seem to have a 300% premium on everything).

So, on the low / resourceful side, I might expect it to cost roughly $1200-$1300. On the easily available side, probably around $2500.

But, on a positive note, if this is to serve as a car replacement, it'll be much cheaper in the long run. However, if it's really a "sunny day" supplement and you take the car on the not-so-good days, then the most you're saving on is gas and mileage-related depreciation. If your car is somewhat old, depreciation is pretty minimal. And, assuming 20 mpg up, then a 20 mile distance would only use roughly a gallon a day which is like 250 work days * 3 = $750 / year. A 40 mpg motorcycle would only cost like $375 / year for gas and I'd imagine motorcycles are significantly better with uphill mileage than cars since they have to propel much less weight up the hill, so I might be underestimating a motorcycle's mileage.

Laura,
Is there any way you get around the tight storage issue? What about putting a gas scooter in the bed of your truck? I know this is completely off of what we've been talking about, but it's worth considering. Electric bikes are great for normal terrain and very clean, but may not be the best choice for transportation in the mtns.

Don't worry, not trying to steer you off the electrics, just asking more about what you may consider.

Luara,

Please say what is the range you will like to travel daily ? 10miles, 20miles. my suggest is going x5306 motor , not cyclone kit. cyclone kit has issue on the controller, and poor chain maintance can cause the whole system to damage, chain+ sproket and gear shifting. it needs a good watch on the chain thing. not really a relaible kit to me.
i saw Montague Folding bike style is very difficult to used for a cyclone motor. No place to mount onto the bike. it has to be the diamond style mtb. if you are using the single crank kit, that one... you will face lots of chain drop out and Noise. it is tOO impossible to carry with cyclone me. break down half way, ?Do you like to push your bike all the way to the hill ??

Hub motor is best. ebike god has done 106Km/h. im very impressed his thread., just search 106km/h. the x5306 will certainly have enough power to pull anything up, i believe so.. that one is not for speed, for a 48v 20hr, im sure it can bring you up. use a CA to set the power drawn.. will be okay.

cheers
kentlim

Welcome Laura,
What's the maximum grade, and how much max weight do you expect to haul (before motor and batteries), and total distance? Is it just the one climb?
John

A 5000 foot climb daily is a huge chore to ask an Ebike to do as a daily commute. It's possible, but I don't think for anywhere near $1000. Even for $2000 it won't be easy. Most ordinary hubmotors are simply going to melt on that climb, unless you had all day to go slow, stop to cool, etc. Plus there is the issue of carrying enough battery to get up that much hill. You may be looking at 30 ah of 48v lifepo4. The physics of lifting a weight that far is inescapable, regardless of how efficient a motor you use. However, the definition of an efficent motor is one that makes less heat, so that would help for sure.

One hub motor that might do the job would be a 5306 or 5305 rear hub crystalyte. Pair it with a fairly low amp controller, like 25 or 30 amps. That way two 48v 15 ah pings in paralell could run it. That bike won't carry all that easily, so include money for a much stiffer bike too. The other option would be a cargo bike and a stokemonkey type motor. The best option though, would be some kind of chain drive setup like the RC motors use, but using a motor that has a blower to air cool it, instead of a sealed motor. That way the motor can deal with the heat created by that kind of climb.

My choice for such a climb would likely be a 250 cc four stroke motorcycle or scooter. You should be able to find one used for a similar budget. That's just a huge climb for an ebike.

Wait a minuite, I just re read the first post. 2000 feet is a whole different story from 5000 vertical. Chances are, a 9 continent kit can do 2000 vertical, depending on the grade and the climate, and do it with a 48v 15 ah pingbattery powering it if you have the 20 amp controller. But you will have to pedal, so deal with it. Not hard make you want to puke pedaling, just a moderate effort that helps the motor keep it's cool better.

Go to map my ride or a similar website, map your route, and tell us what the grades are really like. A 9 c at 48v can do 10% though it will get hot, and 7% is no problem at all for 2000 vertical feet. Also what climate, under 80F motors shed their heat a lot better, above 95F and they start getting much hotter.

Edit, Just caught the part in another post about the trailer. At least that gives you lots of room to carry the battery. But it makes me lean more back to the idea of a 5305 or 5306. You'll need a lower speed winding than the 9 continent 2807 for that.

bicycle brakes? coming back down loaded with weight is not a good idea with bicycle brakes.but even that can be overcome.

You need dual disc brakes for a daily downhill such as what you've described.

5,000 foot rise, several miles EVERY DAY ?? I love E-bikes, but this is one situation where I would advise a push-trailer with a gasoline engine such as those found at Staton-inc. Also, two wheeled push trailer would give you the option of 4 disc brakes.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9855

http://www.staton-inc.com/

This is getting to be a lot more than she expected, I can tell. I didn't even think about the brakes, the bike I'm selling to her has low end v-brakes, definitely not up to the task of going down a huge mtn with a big load. Putting disk brakes on that bike would be a lot of work because it doesn't have a rear mount and will need yet another newer fork.


I myself am coming to the conclusion that she should just get a 4 stroke gas scooter, and a 2x10 plank to load it into the bed of her truck. So much less to worry about and less costs.

Laura, I'm even concerned that the Montague isn't THAT good enough of a bike for what you need. It is over 10 yrs old and fine for normal cycling, but to load it up with 50lbs of motor and battery and be going up and down huge mtns - I don't think it's going to be reliable enough or safe enough.

Thank you all! Especially "veloman" : )
i mapped the longest route i would take
http://www.mapmyride.com/route/us/ca/mt%20shasta/130128076917876256
I am going to be camping - I will have a giant arctic fox camper on the back of my truck.
I can see i will hit up to a 14% grade at the most, much of it being 10 % and 4%
I want a bike for many reasons... utmost as i want to take it on the trails (and i want the exercise)
I also want silent. I will be riding in areas where there may not have been a human being for days or months or beyond.
This route is only one of many stops on my journey. I will be staying here many summers.
I can camp lower down the hill, but my preference still would make a 4,100 foot climb.
I was considering the e+ bike, i rode it and loved it. It took hills great. Was silent, easy to use. I could get the wheel hub battery and an extra lipo. It is expensive, and i have to sell a lot to get it - I know to get what is right in this, as this is really going to be my main transportation. Driving around with a giant camper necessitates this (happily)
Oh, I want the bike fold-able as i love traveling so much, i wanted to make sure i have something that can compact down for wherever I want to take it. Also in reading about these campers, this way it fits nicely below the camper : )
So I should add that silent is one of my wishes for this definitely.
I posted as my daily needs the most demand that i know i will put on it if i can at this point.
Realistically, most of my daily things will be things like, well where i am currently i have - well another 14% grade over about 1/4 mile but a small elevation ride of 365 feet : ) and about 5 miles : )
Thank you all for the fantastic input! This is a big decision and purchase i I greatly appreciate the help!

Oh, I should add, i'm only 110 and vegan . The most weight i will be putting on will be water jugs and vegetables - which would probably make the load equal to that of a light man : )

if you have a good ebike then multiple trips are fun and safe.i was going to my local food place 3xs a week instead of once, to lessen the total weight.plus i found more deals going more so it all worked out in the end.if you build it, you can use it somehow im sure.

Ok, the info helps a lot. But bear in mind that the perfect bike for riding steep log roads and singletrack bike trails tends to cost a lot.

It's really a shame you didn't turn up this spring, because this would have been ideal for ya, but you can't get one anymore. (9 continent 6x10) Mabye you could get lucky and see one for sale in the for sale used section. But only if I don't see it first.

This is my 9 continent 2810 or sometimes called 6x10 rear hub bike. It will climb at least a couple thousand feet of 10-12% grade easily before it gets hot. As I said before, overheating is going to be a major problem with climbs of 4-5000 vertical. So you want a motor that can take even more heat, like the 5300 series crystalytes. 5306 would be ideal, but I think you can get a 5305 from Electricrider. They call that motor the brute, I think.



A 5305 is going to use a lot more power though, so the battery is going to be correspondinly larger and more expensive.

You also need a disk brake bike, or at least disk front brakes. And for a heavy strong rear hub motor, a bike with steel rear dropouts would be ideal.
A mongoose blackcomb would do the trick, and they can be ordered on line from wallmart fairly cheap.

Others will tell you to get a gearmotor, like a BMC, but gearmotors have trouble shedding their heat, and can be a poor choice for really long hard rides.

Accepting that i may have to spend then, up to $3000 or so
what is the best route to go?
Although - thank you ! now I see a post of something more affordable.
Which are better at not overheating?
Also there's something with recharging - I remember on the E+ and making sure it doesn't get too much charge too?

I may have just confused you. The nine continent motors are still avaliable, and could easily climb 10% grades for quite a ways with a 48v battery. That would be with a 2807 motor. But that middle section of 5 miles or so of 12-14% would melt a 2807 down. What's required is a slower winding, which give a slower top speed, and cooler climbing of steep hills. And that motor, 2810, or 6x10, is no longer sold in the US. So you need to find another motor, such as the crystalyte 5306 that has a simiarly slow winding. Unfortunately the 5306 is a much more expensive motor, and possibly just as hard to find.

It may be possible though, to buy a 6x10 from some vendor eslewhere in the world. Happy hunting.

Yes, recharging has me curious too, the camper has a generator? If so it will have to run for quite some time to recharge your bike battery.

Yes she's using a generator to charge it. I think she should definitely have a system with regen, to take the load off the brakes, and perhaps if she is camping at the top of the mtn, she could finish charging the battery on the way down with regen.... so she would have a full pack on the return trip back up. Just don't head down the mtn with a full battery if you want to regen.

The key is, the bike has to be geared for a top speed of no more than 25mph, preferable closer to 20mph. Even those monster 5000 series motors are going to overheat because they arenot designed to pull 1500watts sustained at 15-20mph. Even if they could, they will be very inefficient since they want to spin much faster.

Laura, how do you know the E+ motor will handle your climb? You said it did well on the hills, but how big were they?

So, this sounds doable. A 20" 9c hub motor with a high winding and a higher voltage will work well, given that the load is only 200 pounds or so. So, that would revise the watthour capacity estimates downwards. But, now I'm not so sure my assumption of pavement is so accurate, and dirt or gravel will increase the per-mile energy consumption. You should probably still keep a thermometer on the motor just in case it overheats and if it does, then you'll just have to wait until it cools. If you plan on pedaling a bit, you can reduce your energy needs even more.

For downhill travel, you don't have to use "regen" as an electric brake although that would indeed be handy. It could as simple as wiring in a switch that shorts the motor's winding upon activation. Doing this and the braking capability of your bike could be a non-existent concern.

+1 on the Crystalyte 5306 or 5305 motor. Keeping your cost to a $1000 is going to be tough. Try to find a good used motor kit. I bought my 5303 (phoenix racer) used on ebay and I bought my 5304 (phoenix cruiser) on craigslist for great savings. I don't think a generator is a good idea. All the money you saved by not driving a car is going to go for putting gas in the generator for recharging. Plus you have the noise in your campsite. You would be better off having more batteries, and charging them all when you are back home. And if you are going to have a trailer, make it a pusher also in case you need it. Or at least, store your extra battery on your trailer and forget the generator and the gas and pollution that goes with it. If you have a camper, think about installing solar panels, but remember, It takes alot of solar to charge up batteries. A little battery maintainer will not do the job.

Here is a picture of my mountainclimber. It has an easy to remove battery, controller, BMS setup. It is also a folding bike with a big crystalyte motor and a v-power 48 volt 20 amp hour battery. It will climb 2500 feet easily but is the 5303 phoenix racer which is built for speed. It will do 20 miles running flat out climbing 2500 feet in elevation at speeds in excess of 30 mph. On the flat it will go 37 mph. The motors a few of us have suggested the 5305 or 5306 are even built more for mountainclimbing. I am going to try to download some pictures for you. I am going to try to put my complete pictures in a build thread soon. If I get to it I will post where you can find it here on this thread. I can put this bike in my geo metro without putting my back seat down. With this big hub motor but no battery mounted it would be hard for a 115 lb woman to do by herself.

I would suggest that you try to test some different ebikes. You can get a lot of advice here, but much of it is subjective to that persons impressions and needs. You need to find out what works for you. Since you camp and travel, you might be able to stop by and try various people's bikes here on the forum.

You would like to see how the bike handles, and how you will handle the bike. That is how heavy is the bike? How easy to maintain? How easy to disassemble if needed for transport?

swbluto's first post about the physics of lifting the mass of bike and biker and overcoming drag is very good. Physics is objective and won't budge. Relaxing your requirement on climbing 5000ft on battery will help.

Many other posts in this thread suggested various direct drive motors, the 9C and Crystallyte 53xx. Personally, I would not recommend those. They are significantly heavier than geared motors and IMHO not an ideal choice for hills. I have been riding a 9C for a year and a half. It works very well for my city errands and climbs small hills ok, but is electrically ineffiecient on hills and doesn't work well on trails. I'm building a BMC v2, which will be lighter and more efficient at low speed climbing of hills due to the gearing. Some more technical information on hill climbing and efficiency is here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19681&start=15#p289416

Personally I would go for a light bike and light motor and battery. A eZee kit, BMC V2T+ping battery or MAC motor + controller might be a good solution. They are slightly different versions of the same motor, and decent on hills.
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11024&start=0
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17029&start=0

The first is a complete kit that is easy to put on a bike. The second is a motor kit. You build (spoke) the wheel and
add battery. The third is motor only.

A step down in power, weight and price are the various Bafang type and lookalike motors:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19971
(There are many vendors for this size motor)

Evoforce said:

+1 on the Crystalyte 5306 or 5305 motor.

Click to expand...

I would personally prefer the 9C kits on a 20" wheel or less. While it doesn't have as much thermal mass, it would be more efficient at a given output which will produce lower heat to begin with. The less heat you produce, the less energy you need to carry and the less thermal conductivity you need. Of course, determining the efficiency will depend on a proper analysis (Or, simpler, a good simulation. ).

Also, 9C wheels are a good deal cheaper and lighter.

!!Thank You!!!
The idea of actually trying some of these configurations is excellent. Any Californian's or Oregonians on this Thread?
I tried some bike (like bion-x) and was quite dissapointed.
I would recharge the battery in town. Would not waste my generator.
Looking to spend money on the bike first, then get solar for the camper : )
I had considered the e+ bike, which recharges, is small. I don't know how far it would climb. It took steep grades very well, but I only took it about 2 1/2 miles (almost all uphill) It did great.
I'm realizing that i may have to spend the $2000 plus.
A second Battery is an excellent idea
Weight is an issue.
With the e+ bike i tried, the front wheel could be taken off, then i was able to lift the bike (I'm small but strangely strong for my size - leverage maybe : ) )
And as this is a folding bike, the configuration has to work with the bike design.
I like the regeneration - if for nothing else, they are built-in brakes.
The roads i will normally travel are pavement. The dirt trails are just for fun for me : )
I really have to go through these posts and research these things more. That may be my day tomorrow.
Thank you!!!

Ok I posted more pictures in the ebikes photos and videos under Evoforce Bike build 1, 2, and 3. My woman weighs about your weight and it is much better for her to have the batteries mounted low and not up high on a rear rack. I really like the idea of a pusher trailer for you. You would still have plenty of room on the right trailer for "goods". You may be able to have a switch at the trailer, with your bike removed, to ramp it up under power, into your truck bed. But if you do go with batteries and motor on your bike. I might go with a front crystalyte mounted motor and 2 separate batteries in a series mounted about axle height on each side of your bikes back wheel. This will help you balance and control the weight. Take a look at Evoforce Bike Build number 2. Even tho that bike isn't a folder I think the arrangement would work well for the bike you were looking at.