NMC Battery

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Does anyone thing we will see batteries small enough for the E-Bike market based on this new NMC technology and when?

It would seem a much better alternative to LiFeP04 or LiPo?

I know Nissan plans to use it in the leaf in 5 years time, and promises a range of 200 miles+, 1000 cycles, though I can see rather than have twice the range, they will probably make it half the size and charge the same as the manganese spinel they use now,though, they could surprise us and offer twice the range for the same price now?

I would love a battery half the size of my Ping 48 volt 20 amp. I'm not brave enough to go LiPo :mrgreen:

I also don't like the fact LiPo offers half the cycles of LiFeP04! Also it's impossible to find a fully built LiPo pack for E-Bikes, rather than connecting much smaller packs together and finding a suitable bms. The only fully built pack I have seen are those on HiPower cycles at a price of $1400 and $1100 from ebikes-sf. It kinda makes my ping seem really good value even though it's around 4kg heavier!

I believe there are other technologies on the way based on silicon nanowires and lithium air to name a few!
 
I know what you mean about lipo; it's a pain in the butt. If someone made 20ah cells that cost twice as much as an equivalent 20ah worth of turnigy/zippy, i would buy it just for the sake of convenience and less worries!!

Who knows what the future of battery tech holds? I think Panasonic holds the record for most watt-hour per whatever unit of weight. If they made larger prismatic cells, i have a feeling they would rock the ebike community by storm like lipo has.

But yeah, for high ah/voltage packs, we are a bit limited :\. No low hanging fruit to be picked. Better get your tools out :)
 
o00scorpion00o said:
Does anyone thing we will see batteries small enough for the E-Bike market based on this new NMC technology and when?

It would seem a much better alternative to LiFeP04 or LiPo?

I know Nissan plans to use it in the leaf in 5 years time, and promises a range of 200 miles+, 1000 cycles, though I can see rather than have twice the range, they will probably make it half the size and charge the same as the manganese spinel they use now,though, they could surprise us and offer twice the range for the same price now?

I would love a battery half the size of my Ping 48 volt 20 amp. I'm not brave enough to go LiPo :mrgreen:

I also don't like the fact LiPo offers half the cycles of LiFeP04! Also it's impossible to find a fully built LiPo pack for E-Bikes, rather than connecting much smaller packs together and finding a suitable bms. The only fully built pack I have seen are those on HiPower cycles at a price of $1400 and $1100 from ebikes-sf. It kinda makes my ping seem really good value even though it's around 4kg heavier!

I believe there are other technologies on the way based on silicon nanowires and lithium air to name a few!

Do you have more info on this battery? I'm pretty sure that it is actually a form of LiPo, but a much more advanced an stable version, specifically LiCo or Lithium Cobalt, which is the same chemistry used for the Chevy Volt, and used by Amped Bikes in their newest battery, and finally the cheap version from Turnigy:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11940

N6000.4S.25.jpg


IMHO, with a good quality ESC (or good quality adjustable LVC custom controller like Lyen's with a hub motor) on a RC powered bike, you really have no need for a BMS.

I have let someone with no experience with E-Bikes at all ride my bike with Kepler Drive up a 8%+ hill and when they bogged it down, over-loading it with amps, it just shuts off, likewise I have the LVC set so that it won't let the batteries take a hit either. 8)
 
LI-ghtcycle[url said:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11940[/url]

N6000.4S.25.jpg


IMHO, with a good quality ESC (or good quality adjustable LVC custom controller like Lyen's with a hub motor) on a RC powered bike, you really have no need for a BMS.

I have let someone with no experience with E-Bikes at all ride my bike with Kepler Drive up a 8%+ hill and when they bogged it down, over-loading it with amps, it just shuts off, likewise I have the LVC set so that it won't let the batteries take a hit either. 8)





WOW 25-50 C discharge? I bet my magic pie would be able to pull a 747 with that kind of amps! :mrgreen:

That's crazy for such a small battery!

Okay, I'm not a battery expert, but by my calculations I would need 4 packs in series for 59.8 volts and 4 in parallel would give me 24 amps?

150 amps constant is very impressive, and a weight of 5.7 kgs for 25 amps that's alm ost 5kgs lighter than my ping 48 v 20 amp!!! :shock:

And for a price of 380 Euros? am I missing something here?

LOL probably 200 Euros for charger and bms, and 100 Euros shipping?

Serious, how would I rig up a bms for 8 of these packs? And charging? and also connecting up an anderson with all the wires of 8 packs?

Why don't these companies make bigger packs for E-Bikes? I'm sure there would be high demand for these!

They don't give specs like, charge cycles, or charge rates.

Would I be right by assuming that if this battery has the normal LiPO 300-500 cycles that discharging at only around 7C would dramatically improve the life cycle, say 1000+ or if I have 24 amps capacity only use 20 amps, maybe the cycles would go up to 1000+?

Sorry for all the questions as I'm still learning about batteries!

I don't know if this new nano makes LIPO safer? I'm still scared of burning the house down! :mrgreen:

Ha I just saw 5C charge rate on a 6 amp battery? 30 amps charge on a 6 amp pack? LMAO that's impressive indeed, Imagine the cost of a charger to charge a full 24 amp pack @5C? :shock:

The future of E-Bike batteries looks very exciting indeed!

Mark
 
I'm still new to LiPo too, but let me say this, even before the "new" LiPo there have been people getting both 300 - 500 charge cycles, and some getting closer to 1,000+, it's all in how you treat the batteries, and the quality of the batteries.

If you buy the cheapest LiPo you can find, and run it to 90%+ depth of discharge, you're bound to not only have a short pack life, but most likely you're going to ruin some cells.

However, if you don't do more than 50% DOD for the first 10 cycles, and then NEVER over 80% DOD for the rest of the time, you're going to have a very good experience, and I started thinking about batteries, and how long they last, it sounds impressive that a battery could last you for 5+ years, but then you remember that batteries much like computers improve at a very fast rate, even if my batteries only lasted say, 800 cycles, by then I am sure there will be a newer battery that will put out much more than the one I have now, and if you think 25 - 50c is impressive, for about $10 more per pack, you can get 45 -90c!!! :shock: :shock: :twisted: :twisted:

I buy the 25 - 50c only because they are more reasonable, once the price comes down on the 45 - 90c, that will be my choice. :)

If you look at Kepler's drive and his recommended charger, ESC, batteries, etc. you can still buy some average LiPo that works very well, and is even cheaper, with a good charger, just remember in the RC world, chargers and their power supplies are separate, so many people use that to their advantage and buy cheap but powerful Meanwell power supplies, but you can get all that stuff, and as long as you are handy with a soldering iron (to build a throttle interface) you can do it all for about the price of a large Ping Hub motor battery! :D

If you're not able to do some of this stuff yourself, there are several of us that will. Not trying to sell you specifically on the Kepler drive, just want you to know what's out there and how affordable it can be.

As far as safety goes, I felt the same way you do, until I was given a "junk" LiPo pack from the hobby shop that had the leads cut too short, and I tried every way I could think of to turn it into an orange fireball (shooting holes all the way through it, dropping in a bucket of water, smashing it with a hammer) and it never even smoked! The main thing to realize is just like gasoline, you have to respect it, and the most risky thing you can do is buy the cheapest charger you can find, and charge it when you're not around NEVER DO THAT with LiPo unless you have good insurance and want to burn a building down! :lol:

Also, don't forget that every lap-top and cell phone basically has a form of LiPo battery, and yes ours are much higher C rate and all that, but hey, a small cup of gasoline or kerosene or other liquid fuel can still start a fire too, just have to treat it with respect, use a charging bag (you can get a nice thick one for $15) and remember, never leave it somewhere you can't observe it while charging, or charge it in somewhere you can afford to have a fire, like a BBQ or out-door fireplace. Some people use corning (ceramic) cookware that can take lots of heat, or an old metal drawer from a desk to charge them in, so if there is a problem, you can rush it outside.

I am totoally new to LiPo, I have a total of 7 charge cycles on mine, but I can tell you, I have NEVER once got any battery hot much less beyond just warm enough that I wasn't sure if I was imagining it, even when I used the wrong motor and burned it up (I THOUGHT at the time I KNEW what I was doing hehe) because I used the wrong type of RC motor, trying to run it with the same knowledge I gained from hub motors, but now that I have it set-up right, not only does nothing get hot (even after pulling 100 AMPS) I have given a friend a try going up a 8-10% hill from the base of it, and even when he bogged it down and did most things wrong, all that happened was the ESC cut the power until he started pedaling more.

If set-up correctly, a good RC set-up is really hard to beat, and like in any E-Bike set-up, the batteries are pretty much the key to their performance capability and with a nice Castle Creations ESC, you can set all the parameters to keep things from going south, the other day I lost all info from my Turnigy Power and Watt meter (it got wet, now it's dry and working fine), but the power was still flowing, and though "flying blind" I was able to continue to use the drive with out problems, even though I was going up a 8% hill.

Here is Kepler's for sale thread for more good info on LiPo chargers and batteries, and if you're interested at all in a built Kepler Drive, send me a PM, and I can tell you what I can offer. :) (Even if only for the building of the interface, I have built one with no problems using the directions from Recumpence, very easy to do, or he or I can build you one too)

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20491&hilit=Kepler+Drive&start=120 (The basic parts build is at the beginning, and charger/power supply on bottom of page 9)

Don't let LiPo scare you, the real turning point for me, was when the 28V Dewalts started to get scarce, and I was considering building my own battery packs, adding a BMS, and all that goes with that, and heard about the new LiPo that has similar characteristics to the LiFeP04 in that it has more C rate and similar construction, that is supposed to result in more stability and longer life.

Amped Bikes sells a battery of the same chemistry as those Turnigy's as their "house" battery, and that is of-course another option, if you want something more plug-n-play, but again you're going to spend a bunch more. The beauty of an RC drive similar to Kepler's is that it doesn't TAKE a big battery, I am running mine on just 15V! 8)
 
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