Paratrooper Pro on MAC 1000W

Alright, so finally I think I've got all things (except for warmer gloves perhaps) that I needed, and took it for a spin. This is my 3rd trip - the longest. The 1st one was too exciting and short to write anything about, and 2nd was even shorter due to an accident which involved the battery being completely thrown off on the ground after the rack came off due to cheap plastic parts (or perhaps me being naive or stupid thinking that a mere plastic clamp can reliably hold anything other than a night light).

So this is the setup - pics attached - Montague Paratrooper Pro, wide seat (and boy did I learn that the seat is among the most important parts one can have on an ebike), 1000W 6T MAC, IRFB3077, 16S 20Ah split A123 pack (props to Paul the Cellman for this; a note about that and the CA later) with 40A BMS inside a Topeak MTX Trunk Bag.

Now a quick note about the CA monitoring. Something I noticed on my 2nd trip a week ago. I completely charged the battery on Friday and took the bike for a spin early Saturday, CA showing a little less than 20Ah (19.83 Ah I think). So I'm cruising around, gentle on throttle (being only 6T, it's still a bit torquey, don't want to push my luck), depleting the battery, or so it seems - the CA actually shows the Ah numbers increasing - I left home with 19.83 Ah; 3 miles later it shows 17.50 (this was the test mode - testing just how powerful the thing is), another mile later - 18.96, another mile - 19.57, I get home with 20.90 Ah. 3rd trip today - same thing - I leave with about 20 Ah, it never goes below 19 Ah, I get home with 28.14 Ah. Battery remains cool to the touch, visually nothing out of ordinary. I'm a bit confused, because it still takes over an hour for the battery to charge up (in pics). Both the CA and the controller are stock the way I got them, I have not adjusted any settings (the I/II switch remains on O).

But overall the experience is great - though the bike is definitely heavier (the kickstand alone doesn't hold it anymore), I give some cars a serious run for their money. I still can't get the CA to record the speed though - don't know what it is, I placed the magnet probe on the wheel, mounted the sensor on the fork next to the probe. I read that I need to set the CA for the 26" wheel so that it can properly record the speed and RPM, so I'll look into that when I get a chance, and I probably have to tinker with the controller to get the correct battery values.

Feedback!

Okay, things looked better during and after yesterday's trip. After resetting the CA and slightly adjusting the position of both the magnetic probe and the sensor, everything went back to what I expected - started with ~20 Ah, 40 km trip, 0.4% (or was it 0.04%?) regen, max speed ~45 km/h, got home with ~4 Ah left (I assume it is because the CA doesn't show the remaining, only what's used up) - 3.5 hours to recharge.

I briefly searched on the web, but is there a way to somehow export the CA data into a spreadsheet of sorts?

Next time you get a chance, rotate the axle 180 degrees so the wires coming out of it face down. That will help keep water out of the hub motor. As it is now, any rain, condensation , etc. will run down the cable right into the motor. Not a good thing.

wesnewell said:

Next time you get a chance, rotate the axle 180 degrees so the wires coming out of it face down. That will help keep water out of the hub motor. A sit is now any rain, condensation , etc. will run down the cable right into the motor. Not a good thing.

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Noted, will do, thanks.

U also may want to consider locating the battery on a hanger off the center. There seems to be enough room and the handling will improve dramaticallty. Neat bike! That "C/G" thing really does work!
otherDoc

docnjoj said:

U also may want to consider locating the battery on a hanger off the center. There seems to be enough room and the handling will improve dramaticallty. Neat bike! That "C/G" thing really does work!
otherDoc

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I'd love to know more about hanging the battery at the center, but what exactly do you see as the hanger? I tried bungee cords (thick, too) at first - very clumsy, never secure enough. I constantly stopped just to check how secure were - turned out they were so tight that they actually blocked the brake cable. But yeah, any suggestions to distribute the weight as evenly as possible are welcome.

Rollodo said:

I'd love to know more about hanging the battery at the center, but what exactly do you see as the hanger? I tried bungee cords (thick, too) at first - very clumsy, never secure enough. I constantly stopped just to check how secure were - turned out they were so tight that they actually blocked the brake cable. But yeah, any suggestions to distribute the weight as evenly as possible are welcome.

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Do as Ion82 did with his Electra Townie. The bike is much more balanced and not as tail heavy that way.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46518

Rollodo said:

The 1st one was too exciting and short to write anything about, and 2nd was even shorter due to an accident which involved the battery being completely thrown off on the ground after the rack came off due to cheap plastic parts (or perhaps me being naive or stupid thinking that a mere plastic clamp can reliably hold anything other than a night light).

Click to expand...

I had the same issue with my Topeak rear mounted pack. I had to use 2" wide Velcro straps to hold the darn thing in place.

Rollodo said:

I'd love to know more about hanging the battery at the center, but what exactly do you see as the hanger? I tried bungee cords (thick, too) at first - very clumsy, never secure enough. I constantly stopped just to check how secure were - turned out they were so tight that they actually blocked the brake cable. But yeah, any suggestions to distribute the weight as evenly as possible are welcome.

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bottle mount batt, kinda like in this pic.
then some light strapping over the boom if you feel the need for added stability.
definitely more work to it but you gotta get dirty or stay stuck.

ambroseliao said:

Do as Ion82 did with his Electra Townie. The bike is much more balanced and not as tail heavy that way.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46518

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take a close look at headtube on your own m750.
there's no place the clamps can grab without filing off some weld is there?

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:

take a close look at headtube on your own m750.
there's no place the clamps can grab without filing off some weld is there?

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I haven't actually mounted a battery on the front of my bikes yet. I plan to in the near future when the Tidalforce front hub batteries wear out. My initial thought on the M-750 framed bikes is to mount it like your idea, off the water bottle mounts. The other thought is to mount it from the handlebars.

you'll notice the m750 has an extra third threadsert that's not included on the standard paratrooper (if i see things correctly in the OP).
the reason it's there is before settling on the rmb, tf originally intended to come out with a bmb/bottle mount 'b'-batt.
essentially following in the footsteps/cloning the USPD solution pictured.
so adding an insert or maybe even a couple could be required depending on batt weight.

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:

Rollodo said:

I'd love to know more about hanging the battery at the center, but what exactly do you see as the hanger? I tried bungee cords (thick, too) at first - very clumsy, never secure enough. I constantly stopped just to check how secure were - turned out they were so tight that they actually blocked the brake cable. But yeah, any suggestions to distribute the weight as evenly as possible are welcome.

Click to expand...

bottle mount batt, kinda like in this pic.
then some light strapping over the boom if you feel the need for added stability.
definitely more work to it but you gotta get dirty or stay stuck.

Click to expand...

Where can i take a look at that battery mount case (and perhaps the mounting brackets) - never seen these before and can't seem to find it anywhere, even when I search web for "uspd battery case".

UPDATE: if this is the same as Currie box (pics with LiPo here), then I believe this is going to be a bit small for my two packs - solid construction, but I've got 16S 20Ah pouches split into 2 packs over in my Topeak bag. Don't ask how I got it to fit, but it requires the bag to have an expandable top.

Blotman said:

I was scratching my head over the battery placement problem on my own Paratrooper. Wish I had a garage/workshop and some fabrication skills. I wound up stuffing my LiFePO4 batteries into a Mountainsmith backpack for dogs (size large), and used straps to hold it over the top tube and pressed against the head tube. A gym bag can fold over the top tube just as well, but I like how fugly this looks and it gives me a chuckle.



The thing now handles like a dream, but there are a couple compromises. The space can get cramped for pedaling and steering, and the packs do need to clear the cables on the side for the rear brake and derailleurs. I originally strapped the batteries so they would sort of hover above the cables. The packs stay surprisingly stable with straps tight against the top tube and head tube. I eventually removed the shifters, and went with hydraulic brakes though. This allows me to remove all three cables and lower the batteries a bit.

Click to expand...

This looks surprisingly decent, even though I agree on the pedaling challenge. We definitely need something more professional looking.

I was scratching my head over the battery placement problem on my own Paratrooper. Wish I had a garage/workshop and some fabrication skills. I wound up stuffing my LiFePO4 batteries into a Mountainsmith backpack for dogs (size large), and used straps to hold it over the top tube and pressed against the head tube. A gym bag can fold over the top tube just as well, but I like how fugly this looks and it gives me a chuckle.



The thing now handles like a dream, but there are a couple compromises. The space can get cramped for pedaling and steering, and the packs do need to clear the cables on the side for the rear brake and derailleurs. I originally strapped the batteries so they would sort of hover above the cables. The packs stay surprisingly stable with straps tight against the top tube and head tube. I eventually removed the shifters, and went with hydraulic brakes though. This allows me to remove all three cables and lower the batteries a bit.

Rollodo said:

Where can i take a look at that battery mount case (and perhaps the mounting brackets) - never seen these before and can't seem to find it anywhere, even when I search web for "uspd battery case".

UPDATE: if this is the same as Currie box (pics with LiPo here), then I believe this is going to be a bit small for my two packs - solid construction, but I've got 16S 20Ah pouches split into 2 packs over in my Topeak bag. Don't ask how I got it to fit, but it requires the bag to have an expandable top.

Click to expand...

might be tough to find even just pics, i think USPD predates the web. :lol:
but i wasn't suggesting this as a straight bolt on drop in, if that's what your looking for.
only as an 'idea4design' illustration since there is no COTS solution & unfortunately stuck with having to fab something.
i assume you have the pouch cells so i chose the USPD box just as a ferinstance.
since what you want is a (granted larger) rectangular version of a bottle batt.
which really is what you need to google if you want to see more examples.

but yeah, you've got over a kWhr there which is a lot to ask from a few threaded inserts even with supporting the other end from the boom.
is so large you'll probably have to do both, bottle type mounting along with what Blotmans done.
there's a core group here on ES who prefer the handlebar mount like the one ambrose linked also claiming improved handling.
but to my mind the etank saddlebag positioning of Blotman is even better.
it gives you all the benefit of being centered about the roll axis minus the inertia of moving all that weight affecting your steering.
with a minor plus being postioned closer to the yaw axis, there's also a little less of the 'spinning-barbell' effect.


[youtube]RL70THRNvi8[/youtube]

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Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:

but yeah, you've got over a kWhr there which is a lot to ask from a few threaded inserts even with supporting the other end from the boom.
is so large you'll probably have to do both, bottle type mounting along with what Blotmans done.
there's a core group here on ES who prefer the handlebar mount like the one ambrose linked also claiming improved handling.
but to my mind the etank saddlebag positioning of Blotman is even better.
it gives you all the benefit of being centered about the roll axis minus the inertia of moving all that weight affecting your steering.
with a minor plus being postioned closer to the yaw axis, there's also a little less of the 'spinning-barbell' effect.

Click to expand...

Actually, I've just located that dog bag - good stuff, this is what I was looking for at first, but because I don't have any pets, I didn't know that it was called a dog pack. The question now, though, is the weight capacity of those bags - one of these pouches weighs like 5 kilos - will the bag withstand?

Rollodo said:

Now a quick note about the CA monitoring. Something I noticed on my 2nd trip a week ago. I completely charged the battery on Friday and took the bike for a spin early Saturday, CA showing a little less than 20Ah (19.83 Ah I think). So I'm cruising around, gentle on throttle (being only 6T, it's still a bit torquey, don't want to push my luck), depleting the battery, or so it seems - the CA actually shows the Ah numbers increasing - I left home with 19.83 Ah; 3 miles later it shows 17.50 (this was the test mode - testing just how powerful the thing is), another mile later - 18.96, another mile - 19.57, I get home with 20.90 Ah. 3rd trip today - same thing - I leave with about 20 Ah, it never goes below 19 Ah, I get home with 28.14 Ah. Battery remains cool to the touch, visually nothing out of ordinary. I'm a bit confused, because it still takes over an hour for the battery to charge up (in pics). Both the CA and the controller are stock the way I got them, I have not adjusted any settings (the I/II switch remains on O).

Click to expand...

The CA does not show what the battery has left in it..it shows what you have used. so when you plug in a fully charged battery, press and hold the right hand button, till the words RESET appears.
The CA will now read 0 Ah..Zero.

As you ride the numbers will go up. If you have a 20Ah pack then you do not want to be seeing more than 16 to 17 Ah used really, before you charge

NeilP said:

If you have a 20Ah pack then you do not want to be seeing more than 16 to 17 Ah used really, before you charge

Click to expand...

I agree, that time I didn't have the probe mounted right, so it didn't read the speed correctly, so after resetting the CA and readjusting the sensor, everything came back to normal. After that trip I made it home with about 16 Ah on the display, and I wouldn't push things further - want that pack to last.

Blotman said:

I was scratching my head over the battery placement problem on my own Paratrooper. Wish I had a garage/workshop and some fabrication skills. I wound up stuffing my LiFePO4 batteries into a Mountainsmith backpack for dogs (size large), and used straps to hold it over the top tube and pressed against the head tube. A gym bag can fold over the top tube just as well, but I like how fugly this looks and it gives me a chuckle.



The thing now handles like a dream, but there are a couple compromises. The space can get cramped for pedaling and steering, and the packs do need to clear the cables on the side for the rear brake and derailleurs. I originally strapped the batteries so they would sort of hover above the cables. The packs stay surprisingly stable with straps tight against the top tube and head tube. I eventually removed the shifters, and went with hydraulic brakes though. This allows me to remove all three cables and lower the batteries a bit.

Click to expand...

Speaking of the pack and its mount, Blotman, when I look at the dimensions on the Amazon page, it says Small Dimensions: 9 by 14 by 8.5 inches; Medium Dimensions: 11 by 15 by 10.5 inches and Large Dimensions: 13 by 20 by 12.5 inches. Since this is a double-pack, are they referring to the entire assembly or each pack? Which one do you have?

Rollodo said:

NeilP said:

If you have a 20Ah pack then you do not want to be seeing more than 16 to 17 Ah used really, before you charge

Click to expand...

I agree, that time I didn't have the probe mounted right, so it didn't read the speed correctly, so after resetting the CA and readjusting the sensor, everything came back to normal. After that trip I made it home with about 16 Ah on the display, and I wouldn't push things further - want that pack to last.

Click to expand...

The sensor and speed readings have nothing at all to do with the Ah used display. It will affect the Wh/mile figure, but that does not change what you were expecting to see.

By reading what you first said, you were expecting the Ah figure to count down. Starting at your battery capacity and get lower. Speed sensor won't affect those Ah readings in anyway.

Is this perhaps a Standalone CA with the external shunt? and maybe you are charging through the shunt..so the CA reads what is put into the pack ..or maybe it is a DP CA and the charger is wired to charge though the controller, so the charge current is first flowing through the controller shunt?

NeilP said:

Rollodo said:

NeilP said:

If you have a 20Ah pack then you do not want to be seeing more than 16 to 17 Ah used really, before you charge

Click to expand...

I agree, that time I didn't have the probe mounted right, so it didn't read the speed correctly, so after resetting the CA and readjusting the sensor, everything came back to normal. After that trip I made it home with about 16 Ah on the display, and I wouldn't push things further - want that pack to last.

Click to expand...

The sensor and speed readings have nothing at all to do with the Ah used display. It will affect the Wh/mile figure, but that does not change what you were expecting to see.

By reading what you first said, you were expecting the Ah figure to count down. Starting at your battery capacity and get lower. Speed sensor won't affect those Ah readings in anyway.

Click to expand...

The first 2 trips I thought that it was supposed to be going down because my battery pack was full at start, as I charged it the night before. But by my 3rd trip I figured that it was displaying the consumed Amps, not remaining.

Rollodo said:

Speaking of the pack and its mount, Blotman, when I look at the dimensions on the Amazon page, it says Small Dimensions: 9 by 14 by 8.5 inches; Medium Dimensions: 11 by 15 by 10.5 inches and Large Dimensions: 13 by 20 by 12.5 inches. Since this is a double-pack, are they referring to the entire assembly or each pack? Which one do you have?

Click to expand...

The dimensions are taking into account both bags combined. I am using the large which fits a 12x5x6 inch LiFePO4 pack in each bag with barely enough space for foam padding. My entire pack weighs almost 40 pounds, and unfortanately the seams at the straps began to tear. Ultimately, I've cut them all off and relied solely on the straps I bought from the hardware store.

Honestly, most of the stability and security comes from the way you strap the packs to the boom and head tube (which I can share pics on how I did it when I get back home after the New Year). Any pair of bags that fit your packs should be fine.

Blotman said:

Rollodo said:

Speaking of the pack and its mount, Blotman, when I look at the dimensions on the Amazon page, it says Small Dimensions: 9 by 14 by 8.5 inches; Medium Dimensions: 11 by 15 by 10.5 inches and Large Dimensions: 13 by 20 by 12.5 inches. Since this is a double-pack, are they referring to the entire assembly or each pack? Which one do you have?

Click to expand...

The dimensions are taking into account both bags combined. I am using the large which fits a 12x5x6 inch LiFePO4 pack in each bag with barely enough space for foam padding. My entire pack weighs almost 40 pounds, and unfortanately the seams at the straps began to tear. Ultimately, I've cut them all off and relied solely on the straps I bought from the hardware store.

Honestly, most of the stability and security comes from the way you strap the packs to the boom and head tube (which I can share pics on how I did it when I get back home after the New Year). Any pair of bags that fit your packs should be fine.

Click to expand...

So before I spend $45 on the large bag to test it out, would you say that 2 20 Ah pouches would fit in each part/bag? I'll take a pic of the packs when I home later today.

EDIT: uploaded the dimensions pic.

So I got the bag in the mail last week and installed it, sorry for not making a post. After a week I can take a fairly objective view on the presented difficulties and how glad I actually am that I did not post anything in the same day, because I would sound like a teenager who was not given his/her favorite cookie.

The whole setup was definitely not what I planned for - it works fine in terms of weight distribution, but, if used on a daily basis, it will have to be configured in the stationary fashion, which it cannot be, since it needs to be recharged. The multiple troubles - setting it up, preventing it from getting into ankles while pedaling, the hassle of removing it and then putting it back on and securing it all over again every time - in my opinion simply do not outweigh the single benefit of distributing the weight more evenly. The Topeak bag I have, though heavy and puts additional force on the rear (twss), has a plus of being much more user friendly when you have to pick it up and go to class, for instance - remove it from the rack in 5-10 seconds, throw it on your shoulder with the included strap, and you're good to go.

Since this isn't a thread on which bag to use, let's move on onto other things of significance.

I mounted a two-leg stand plus, after my controller zip tie finally failed, I've repositioned it onto the rack mount, which connects the rack with the saddle via a screw and is much more stable now.

Also, has anyone converted the paratrooper to single or 3-speed (leave the front gears on for some variation)? Do gears and derailleurs really add that much weight? I feel like there is just a bit too much going on with the derailleurs for my taste, and my commute isn't that hilly. I'm thinking of getting this.

Got into an accident, handlebar twisted around, after pedaling back home, turned out that the ignition switch writes came loose. Soldered them back together.

Hi Rollodo - i am getting more interested in this motor everyday i read ES and moving away from a the DD.
Are you running this at 50V 40A? and if so how long (distance wise) are you running WOT?

i dont quite get why the motor is rated at 1000W where i've read at times people are running it at 1.5kW or 2kW?
I am hoping to run this up to 2kW without burning out any parts/ damage

efergy kb said:

Hi Rollodo - i am getting more interested in this motor everyday i read ES and moving away from a the DD.
Are you running this at 50V 40A? and if so how long (distance wise) are you running WOT?

i dont quite get why the motor is rated at 1000W where i've read at times people are running it at 1.5kW or 2kW?
I am hoping to run this up to 2kW without burning out any parts/ damage

Click to expand...

Oh hey, just noticed this now, not sure why I haven't gotten any notifications.

Anyway, the motor is 6T, ~420RPM, the fastest among the geared MAC motors, as it's wound for speed and not torque (the most torquey version is 12T). I live in Brooklyn, where WOT isn't really necessary, unless you're feeling lucky with the drivers, pedestrians, traffic lights and perhaps laws of physics.

I was running it on my 48V 20Ah pouch battery. As I remember it, I was getting around 40 km on one charge constantly. But I'm about 220 lbs, plus the setup involved both the battery and the motor on the rear of the bike, the worst setup you can imagine.

The reason for 'was' is because I haven't been riding it for a while, ever since I put it up for sale (with the battery). I also got the DD Smart Pie on my R1, which is also for sale.